These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The costs of PVP is too much for new players
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#201 - 2014-08-28 18:20:08 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:


All you are saying is the game doesn't meet your definition of fun, which you have demonstrated is instant gratification nonsense.


I find that the more a person talks about noobs, the more they are actually trying to hide their selfish game desires behind false altruism.

In other words, like real world politicians, they are hiding their personal wants behind a thin film of "think of the children!!!!!".
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#202 - 2014-08-28 18:20:32 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.

I also remember when you could still return software to the store. I would often go buy a game at Wal Mart, install it, and then return it, claiming it didn't work on my computer.

Ah, those were the days.

Anyway, totally off topic, but wth, I havent had occasion for a "back in my day.." post in forever.



I ran up $100 long distance phone bill playing a turn based game with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud modem.

Did Walmart sell computer software in the 80's?


It was in the 90's, I believe, that I remember doing the Wal Mart software thing. And yeah, man I remember when I got my first 14.4 modem. Good times Lol

Oh, just gotta say, 1 thing I would do... I got horribly addicted to some of those Door Games as well. Back in those times you could call the operator (the telephone operator) and explain that u needed to make an emergency interrupt on a busy phone line. Soo... when I would make my nightly rounds hitting all the boards to take my turns on the door games, if 1 was busy I'd call the operator, tell her I had a family emergency and needed her to interrupt suchandsuch phone number. A minute later she would come back and tell me all she heard was some strange noise on the line, no talking. "kkthxbai~~~" This disconnected whomever was on, so I would immediately dial in and get connected. I thought I was so slick Lol

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#203 - 2014-08-28 18:20:36 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


So when I say "I disagree, but Ill not tell you why", you are going to accept that as a valid position?


In this game? Sure because internet spaceships are a game. Not serious business!


Ok, well as this is a discussion forum, a discussion requires a proposition, then an evidence supported debate in order to achieve any concensus.

SO thanks for confirming that nothing you say is of any relevance whatsoever.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#204 - 2014-08-28 18:21:47 UTC
Darsena Izuma wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.


All my current good friends I met through BBSes back in the 80s and 90s. Back in the days when the "online" was mostly local people. Lots of good "door" games from those days.

--

To the thread topic: Of course there's a middle ground between helping new players to an extent and turning things into WoW-theme-park-land. I'm not even saying that some of the ideas given here of how to lead new players into PvP are inherently bad. But remember, even in WoW, you're not handed the Ultimate Mythical Armor and Sword on day one, and no one says to the new player: "Welcome, now you have the REAL ULTIMATE POWER, go forth and PvP against level 70 people and win!" There is such a thing as a learning curve even in that kind of game, and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make it any less a "game," nor any less "entertaining."

As has been pointed out quite well by others, EVE is simply more so, and the challenge and learning curve only adds to the gratification for those who stick with it long enough to see results.



It doesn't bother me that EvE is not easy. It just bothers me when people say it is.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2014-08-28 18:22:31 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:


Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.
The game is fun for noobs there is nobody here that wasn't a noob at some point. And it used to be harder for noobs than it is now and yet we all found it fun enough to stay.

All you are saying is the game doesn't meet your definition of fun, which you have demonstrated is instant gratification nonsense.


This. I remember when I was a kid yelling at my father for being an ******** telling him he had no idea what it was like to be a kid like me...


I've known for a long time that I was wrong, of course, he had things a lot less convenient as a kid than I did. No internet or mobile phones or a bunch of stuff we take for granted these days. The same applies here - these whelps are all talking about us like we've always been vets, like we never had to start the game from scratch.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#206 - 2014-08-28 18:22:54 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


So when I say "I disagree, but Ill not tell you why", you are going to accept that as a valid position?


In this game? Sure because internet spaceships are a game. Not serious business!


Ok, well as this is a discussion forum, a discussion requires a proposition, then an evidence supported debate in order to achieve any concensus.

SO thanks for confirming that nothing you say is of any relevance whatsoever.



No problem. I am glad that you don't take this too seriously!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#207 - 2014-08-28 18:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Harrison Tato wrote:



I just warped right on top of the same guy with a two month old character ratting in a destroyer in a .4 system for the third day in a row. Today I blew him up, sent him the isk to buy a new ship, emailed and chatted in local that he shouldn't do what he does, and still feel bad about it. He sent me a thank you note in Russian. He then brought out an Oracle and I couldn't shoot him because it would be like clubbing a baby seal.


What exactly made you feel bad about shooting someone who consented to be shot at (by DLing EVE Online, by unlocking in EVE online and by going to low sec, a trifecta of "please shoot me") in a video game.

I don't imagine you play sports then, as every time you score you'd end up in tears and popping a Xanax.
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#208 - 2014-08-28 18:26:39 UTC
Eve devs have talked a lot in the past about "good complexity" and "bad complexity" in the game, and I think this goes to the issue of making the game more accessible to noobs. Eve is a hard game to learn and a hard game to play, and that's intentional -- but it shouldn't be pointlessly hard to learn or play. CCP has, in fits and starts and always imperfectly, tried to turn that learning curve from a cliff into a hill over the years. And the bittervets always complain about every step because they had to do it the hard way and it builds character or something.

I'm all for a game that rewards PVP skill with ISK, loot, and good killboard stats. PVP should be the "end game" content, really -- your reward for climbing that Everest-like mountain of Eve's learning curve should be epic battles on whatever scale you choose, from 1v1 fights all the way to huge fleet fights in null if that's what you want. What I don't like are the barriers erected in front of new players that serve no good purpose -- such as the total lack of fitting or PVP/fleet training in the NPE. Making a player ferret out all that stuff on their own is "bad complexity" in my view. (And I think CCP's devs agree, which is why they periodically swear to make the NPE suck less.)
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2014-08-28 18:32:02 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Eve is a hard game to learn and a hard game to play, and that's intentional -- but it shouldn't be pointlessly hard to learn or play.


It isn't. The proof is in the people who have learned it and played it when it was even harder to learn and play, and I'm going to just keep making this same point repeatedly every time someone tries to argue that it's too hard for newbs to get into on the ground floor.

Because it's not. It's only hard for whiny self-entitled prats demanding instant gratification to get into, and EVE doesn't want them around anyway.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#210 - 2014-08-28 18:32:07 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
And the bittervets always complain about every step because they had to do it the hard way and it builds character or something.
I've literally never seen this.

Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
the total lack of fitting or PVP/fleet training in the NPE. Making a player ferret out all that stuff on their own is "bad complexity" in my view
There's no way the NPE could communicate an understanding of proper PvP fitting, and even if it tried people would still have to be weaned off the spoonfeeding at some point.

As to 'bad complexity', how well complexity is documented has nothing to do with whether it adds meaningful decisions.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#211 - 2014-08-28 18:40:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tolkaz Khamsi
Crumplecorn wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
And the bittervets always complain about every step because they had to do it the hard way and it builds character or something.
I've literally never seen this.


Are you kidding? It happens every time they buff a non-combat ship. You should have heard the howling when the mining-barge changes were announced. The tooth-grinding from epeener's could be heard from miles off. Or when the Venture was introduced, the attitude was, "Hey, *I* had to mine in a crappy frigate; why are you ruining the game just for these noobs?" You don't have to take my word for it; just go back to the forums.

It happens with every expansion. It happened particularly so in the Retribution expansion, when the security changes got hated on extra-hard by the bittervet contingent. Again, check the forums if you think I'm exaggerating.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#212 - 2014-08-28 18:42:12 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
It happens every time they buff a non-combat ship.


No, it doesnt.

You tell your marks that so often though, Im not suprised you believe it yourself.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#213 - 2014-08-28 18:53:13 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
And the bittervets always complain about every step because they had to do it the hard way and it builds character or something.
I've literally never seen this.


Are you kidding? It happens every time they buff a non-combat ship. You should have heard the howling when the mining-barge changes were announced. The tooth-grinding from epeener's could be heard from miles off. Or when the Venture was introduced, the attitude was, "Hey, *I* had to mine in a crappy frigate; why are you ruining the game just for these noobs?" You don't have to take my word for it; just go back to the forums.

It happens with every expansion. It happened particularly so in the Retribution expansion, when the security changes got hated on extra-hard by the bittervet contingent. Again, check the forums if you think I'm exaggerating.


You misunderstand what veterans are saying. It's not "I had to do this so you should too".

It's "I learned valuable lessons form having to do this, this is why you should too, if they just hand it to you you won't appreciate it". I see you didn't read the link I posted. Teaching people what to do limits what they CAN do where as learning it for themselves tends to lead to them not only learning more, but also creating more.

That's why sooooo many real life movers and shakers are people who didn't finish high school/college or even have a formal education in the field from which they got rich while at the same time a bunch of broke people have advanced degrees.

The the noobs sink or swim and those that swim will enrich the game. Trying to foolishly help them along with game mechanics because you feel sorry for them will not only not work, it will hasten their departure because they will more than likely get stuck into the niche they were trained into.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#214 - 2014-08-28 23:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harrison Tato
Jenn aSide wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:



I just warped right on top of the same guy with a two month old character ratting in a destroyer in a .4 system for the third day in a row. Today I blew him up, sent him the isk to buy a new ship, emailed and chatted in local that he shouldn't do what he does, and still feel bad about it. He sent me a thank you note in Russian. He then brought out an Oracle and I couldn't shoot him because it would be like clubbing a baby seal.


What exactly made you feel bad about shooting someone who consented to be shot at (by DLing EVE Online, by unlocking in EVE online and by going to low sec, a trifecta of "please shoot me") in a video game.

I don't imagine you play sports then, as every time you score you'd end up in tears and popping a Xanax.


Yeah I played football and baseball in High School but I never tackled a five year old on the sidelines who was eating an ice cream cone and reading a picture book which is much like killing a two month old player's destroyer when they doesn't understand that people can kill him while he is enjoying the PVE experience of belt ratting.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#215 - 2014-08-28 23:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Harrison Tato wrote:
Yeah I played football and baseball in High School but I never tackled a five year old on the sidelines who was eating an ice cream cone and reading a picture book which is much like killing a two month old player's destroyer when they doesn't understand that people can kill him while he is enjoying the PVE experience of belt ratting.
Except the five year old on the sidelines isn't playing football* or baseball, and tackling spectators is against the rules; whereas a player who has logged in and undocked is playing the game, and killing him isn't against the rules.

The sooner a newbie is aware that they can get blown up at any time when in space the better, both in terms of the cost of getting blown up in a Destroyer vs something much pricier and them learning about the nature of the game they're playing.

*American Football I presume? Not the game played by the rest of the world.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#216 - 2014-08-29 00:20:29 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:

Yeah I played football and baseball in High School but I never tackled a five year old on the sidelines who was eating an ice cream cone and reading a picture book which is much like killing a two month old player's destroyer when they doesn't understand that people can kill him while he is enjoying the PVE experience of belt ratting.


No, the two are nothing alike. Football has defined, clear rules as to who is, or is not, a player.

There are no innocent spectators in EVE Online. If you're logged in, you're on the field and fair game. It's your own fault if you decided not to wear pads.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#217 - 2014-08-29 01:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's your own fault if you decided not to wear pads.
This applies to the kind of football with a round ball too, especially if Suarez is playing....

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#218 - 2014-08-29 01:46:05 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's your own fault if you decided not to wear pads.
This applies to the kind of football with a round ball too, especially if Suarez is playing....


If I knew anything more about soccer than what the ball looks like, I would probably laugh.

I am guessing...

#nutshots?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#219 - 2014-08-29 01:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's your own fault if you decided not to wear pads.
This applies to the kind of football with a round ball too, especially if Suarez is playing....


If I knew anything more about soccer than what the ball looks like, I would probably laugh.

I am guessing...

#nutshots?
He has a nasty habit of nomming on other players.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#220 - 2014-08-29 04:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Harrison Tato
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Yeah I played football and baseball in High School but I never tackled a five year old on the sidelines who was eating an ice cream cone and reading a picture book which is much like killing a two month old player's destroyer when they doesn't understand that people can kill him while he is enjoying the PVE experience of belt ratting.
Except the five year old on the sidelines isn't playing football* or baseball, and tackling spectators is against the rules; whereas a player who has logged in and undocked is playing the game, and killing him isn't against the rules.

The sooner a newbie is aware that they can get blown up at any time when in space the better, both in terms of the cost of getting blown up in a Destroyer vs something much pricier and them learning about the nature of the game they're playing.

*American Football I presume? Not the game played by the rest of the world.


Yep American (do they tackle in soccer?). Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. I doubt there is a rule against tackling spectators in American Football, it is just implied!