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Double Wrapped Contract Discussion. (Serious Discussion.)

Author
Zylona Femtov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-08-28 13:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zylona Femtov
Oh my,...
So, you gankers, you have missed your prey.

Well, the prey improvise
So, no more sitting duck.

The prey has delivered
So, the ganker missed his collateral.

The prey has adapt and won.
So, as Darwin .

I am not going to cry for you dude
So, now, this thread should be closed.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#82 - 2014-08-28 14:25:40 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Greg Valanti wrote:
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.


Having your cargo scanned is the intended gameplay.

Being immune to it is not. You can tell this, because blockade runners have a specific feature to prevent it. Which means that, by default, it's not intended for other ships.

+1 to the OP.


FINALLY SOMEONE WITH LOGIC!

By this logic only BLOPS should use normal cloaks since only they have a bonus to it, racial weapons on racial ships (except launchers, those go on everything)

This can be expanded to only those with +warp strength should have warp stabs, dreads with cap guns (blap a frig with a capital hybrid abbadon, much more fun than using an arty abaddon)

Your inherent logic is that because the module can see through most things, it should see through all things. Much like a neutron, it will go through most things but there are still things it cant go through.

Besides ganks need to have something to counter, otherwise they fall into the stupid not to do category and that is a bad place to be. Much like Rancer.


You make no sense, you just compared apples to oranges. It should be able to see through anything but a cloaky hauler as its the only ship in the game that is role designated to be "immune to cargo scanning modules", and lets face it no one can argue that double wrapping isn't a broken mechanic that happened unintentionally that was never fixed and has been exploited, and now I'm calling it out for what it is and care bears who exploit the broken mechanic are now crying foul because they wont be able to move their 50b hauls in one haul with double wrapped couriers anymore, and if they do they will actually have to get a 50b loss mail like the rest of the idiots who do such things.

No one here has presented a valid counter arguement other than "Ganking needs a counter so lets make it so no one can see our cargo by exploiting a mechanic that wasnt intended to exist." Stop repeating and come up with something new, that arguement is invalid on premise of acknowledging a broken mechanic then saying it should stay in the game JUST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH GANKING AS A WHOLE.
...



TheMeanPerson, you sound like your overcompensating for something....

1.) The concept that "cargo scanning immunity" proves that cargo was meant to be scanned is very flawed. Double wrapping containers to avoid cargo scanning has been around much, much longer than the recent (in game terms) change to blockade runners. To combat this, gankers historically gank ships with double wrapped packages on the mere assumption it is valuable. Why does this tactic no longer suffice? Last year, about this time, I'd never put a double-wrapped package in my freighter because it painted a big gank-me sign on it. Have gankers grown soft (or broke)? Why do we suddenly need this change?

2.) I believe highsec ganking is generally alright. At the same time, I also believe that it does need periodic balancing and rebalancing. CCP has been doing this for a very long time, from before Concord even existed. These changes include having the corp hangar of an orca scannable, or the loss of insurance to concord victims, or the introduction of ABC's, or the changes to concord response times, or .... The latest changes to freighters (+3 low slots) have allowed haulers to add some additional protections and shift the risk / reward balance. It also allows them to make some pretty stupid risk/reward decisions. Is there a massive increase in tanked freighters out there that dramatically changed the (r)isk/reward value?

3.) The marketing campaign for gankers sucks if this is your threadnaught. Yall shouldn't give a **** about double wrapped packages, and be focusing on have CCP fix Orca SMA drops (which I didn't know until just now). What a waste of angst!

4.) Ganking always favors the gankers. You're a moron if you don't believe that. I'm not saying that ganking doesn't involve a decent amount of organization and/or effort, but that doesn't change the fact that ganking still favors the gankers. Why? Because competent gankers don't bother attacking until they have an almost guaranteed mark. The ONLY risk in ganking is whether the target drops enough loot to cover your losses, but actually performing the gank is the majority of fun (for the gankers), loot be damned. Furthermore, any 7 year old can identify the criteria needed to make ganking profitable in the long run. A hauler has two options to not get ganked:
a.) Avoid the gankers. This is done by web-to-warp, by using fast ships, cloaks, and by avoiding key systems.
b.) Skew the ISK to EHP ratio. This is done by tanking, by obfuscating cargo, and by carrying less value each trip.

5.) It is not an EXPLOIT to use double-wrapped packages. As already pointed out, you get to see that someone is hauling something, even if you don't know what that is. Gank them, that's how gankers historically counter this. Don't be shy, don't be frugal, don't be a ******* pansy. Attack! Please explain why this tactic no longer works?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#83 - 2014-08-28 14:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
If CCP says it's not an exploit, it isn't an exploit. Shouting at them "YES IT IS!!!!" isn't going to change their minds. Resorting to all-caps, ad-hominem, circular logic and bob-only-knows what else you've been doing in this thread ... isn't going to change anyone's mind or even make you look credible (you don't, btw).

One other point: If you're flying a blockade runner and you actually do get cargo scanned, you're flying the blockade runner the wrong way. Additionally, to say that the counter to a low-cost module that can be fitted on literally any ship with midslots is to fly one of only four ships in the entire game ... I'm not on board with that. If someone wants to take the extra effort to double-wrap their packages, you should have to take the extra moment to decide if you want to pull the trigger or not.

Stop crying. Stop whining about ISK and killmails. Stop complaining that it's not just handed to you. Stop moaning about how it's not easy and you have to try.

Stop being such a goddamned carebear.

You're sound just like a spoiled child who spent $300 of mommy's credit card on purples for their raven and saw it get blown up the first time it undocked from Jita.

If this is the "quality" of ganker we have to look forward to in the days ahead, I fear for the future of EVE...
Bimmerman
Penumbra Heavy Industries
#84 - 2014-08-28 15:19:45 UTC
As much as I enjoy watching Gankbears cry, and while I have been guilty of double wrapping Carbon and sending an alt afk through trade routes in a hauler with it until someone takes the bait. I feel that Double Wrapping should be fixed, I don't consider it an exploit per say but a bug i feel that it was left in intentionally as a way to counter/deter gankers. I would like to see this bug fixed by either preventing double wrapping or making scanners penetrate it regardless of how many times it has been wrapped.

If / When is fixed they should introduce a skill or module that would either give a chance for a random selection of items to be hidden or if they are feeling dickish has a chance to generate false readings when scanned. Make it a low slot items (of even make it take up 2 low slots somehow) so freighters have to sacrifice cargo/agility for 'safety'.
Mazzara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-08-28 15:32:57 UTC
Yeah, mmm.... I love those gank-bear tears, yum.

Anyways, I see this as much as an exploit as ship bumping. Gank-bears have no problem using game mechanic loopholes to benefit themselves so I see no need to change this till they fix some of the mechanics of ganking.
No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use, you can't wash shame!
Useless Pieceoftrash
Doomheim
#86 - 2014-08-28 19:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Useless Pieceoftrash
I'm tired of hearing that no ships should be unscannable just because blockade runners are immune to scanning.
The venture and deepspace transports have +2 warpcore strength.. so they should be the only ones to be able to escape 2 points or 1 scram right? fitting warpstabs on other ships is clearly an unintended exploit of a mechanic because why else would those ships have that bonus if any other ship can have it too by fitting two lows. My solution: make a low slot mod that renders a ship unscannable (not partly, not sometimes.. 100% scanning immune). That way it will be 100% obvious that it's intended and working as such (as i believe it is right now).

ps. after the mod is introduced feel free to make cargo scanners see through layers of plastic wrap... :p
voetius
Grundrisse
#87 - 2014-08-28 20:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: voetius
Sub-contracted courier contracts will alway be double-wrapped because of the way the game mechanics work.

So you want to remove the ability to sub-contract courier contracts?

Edit : typo
RoAnnon
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2014-08-28 20:27:25 UTC
If, as OP says, a GM said it's a non-issue, I'd have to say I agree. Not really seeing the exploit here. Just makes it riskier for gankers, possibly gambling they'll get Concorded over a double-wrapped chunk of trit.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet

TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#89 - 2014-08-29 00:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMeanPerson
For anyone saying that CCP agrees with double wrapping, please do your research before making stupid statements which have no real background.

GM's saying things such as the one replied to my petition, his statement was only that CCP at this time didn't consider it a bannable exploit, in addition he encouraged me to start debate in this forum. HENCE the importance of this thread in bringing it to logical non biased discussion. But it is slowly becoming apparent to me having a logical conversation with carebears is impossible.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73995

AND I QUOTE, literally the last line in the post.

"We're not making any changes to plastic wrap right now, but it has significant technical issues which will likely see it being reworked at some point down the line."

Guess what guys, its down the line.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2014-08-29 00:21:16 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
For anyone saying that CCP agrees with double wrapping, please do your research before making stupid statements which have no real background.

GM's saying things such as the one replied to my petition, his statement was only that CCP at this time didn't consider it a bannable exploit, in addition he encouraged me to start debate in this forum. HENCE the importance of this thread in bringing it to logical non biased discussion. But it is slowly becoming apparent to me having a logical conversation with carebears is impossible.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73995

AND I QUOTE, literally the last line in the post.

"We're not making any changes to plastic wrap right now, but it has significant technical issues which will likely see it being reworked at some point down the line."

Guess what guys, its down the line.

You know what else is down the line?
A light at the end of the tunnel
Except its a several ton locomotive barreling toward you with a 2 mile string of cars loaded with crushed iron ore.

Beware when CCP says they change things, for they are a harsh mistress and accept no bitterness from players

PS, kill everything and then you dont have to worry about the double wraps.
It worked for hanging judges with criminals, the logic can work for you!
Minty Aroma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2014-08-29 01:21:24 UTC
Can you therefore transport illegal goods such as drugs through highsec with this method? If Concord can't scan them, then they won't stop you.
Absolutely Not Analt
Carebears on Fire
Viral Society
#92 - 2014-08-29 01:56:15 UTC
Minty Aroma wrote:
Can you therefore transport illegal goods such as drugs through highsec with this method? If Concord can't scan them, then they won't stop you.

This doesn't impact the customs scans. They have magic scanners that can see through anything.

And the statements "This is not an exploit" and "It's something we don't really like and want to change" are not mutually exclusive.

Eve is a multi player game. And you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave

Alcorak
The Syndicate.
#93 - 2014-08-29 03:36:21 UTC
I agree that if double-wrap is intentional, it is a very silly mechanic by which all pilots can have cargo-scan immunity for about 3 minutes of extra effort with no need to fit anything. There is no risk/reward to that system. If CCP wants to keep freighter scan immunity, make freighter pilots risk one of their 3 rig slots for it.

That having been said, i believe freighters are still a bit too weak vs ganks when fully tanked - attack BCs and catalysts just have too high damage:isk ratio. And let's be honest here, high-sec gankers don't have risk/reward balance. If they want the kill, they are GOING to get the kill, resulting in 100% certain 1B+ loss for the victim, and sec status is a joke. The only real question is regarding the return on investment, which can be increased by bounty whoring on gankers' own ships, and the near-certain ability to loot the field. /derail
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#94 - 2014-08-29 03:47:26 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:

But it is slowly becoming apparent to me having a logical conversation with carebears is impossible.


So I'm here confirming that everyone who disagrees from your point of view is not having a logical conversation, but everyone who agrees with everything you said is logical.

-You have failed to prove to me why this needs to get fixed considering this would break subcontracting a courier contract to someone else.
-You even contradicted yourself when you stated that double wrapping your items will not save your ship after you stated that the high end of double wrapping is 50 billion isk haul, which would mean only a fraction of the people who double wrap would need to have something more then carbon, and you could still turn a profit.

I will agree that the value should be added to the killboard, but that being said, does it matter what your killboard says if you get the items in the wrap to drop anyways? It's not like it was really a 0 isk kill, unless of course you got punked with carbon.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#95 - 2014-08-29 04:39:04 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
I will agree that the value should be added to the killboard, but that being said, does it matter what your killboard says if you get the items in the wrap to drop anyways? It's not like it was really a 0 isk kill, unless of course you got punked with carbon.



some care (too much) about their isk efficiency. I happen to think its one of eve's most useless stats. Mainly because I know just how good it washes away all sins of bad pvp.

I have had more than my fair share of stupid attacks that resulted in tard death loss mails. But thanks to healing power of mathemetics....my pvp chars isk efficiency is pretty damn good. Lose a 150 mll hac flying like a moron...get on 10 cap km's and voila....I am an elite pvp'er (to the the isk efficiency sock sniffers anyway). Mix 15 billion in cap km's with 150 mil loss mail...magic happens.


Other aspect is the e-peen. They are compensating for some shortcoming somewhere, game stats are their now I feel good thing. Again I don't see this. 10 ships, 1 charon....its not like you solo'd it. Why I don't really say with pride I killed several caps. I pressed f1 on a carrier target. Like 20+ other people. It died. This not a thrilling ending no one saw coming really and worthy of saying I am the man.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#96 - 2014-08-29 05:44:49 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:

Why I don't really say with pride I killed several caps. I pressed f1 on a carrier target. Like 20+ other people. It died. This not a thrilling ending no one saw coming really and worthy of saying I am the man.


Especially since everyone that got on the km get the full value of the kill, instead of dividing the value up among everyone.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#97 - 2014-08-29 06:06:14 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:

Why I don't really say with pride I killed several caps. I pressed f1 on a carrier target. Like 20+ other people. It died. This not a thrilling ending no one saw coming really and worthy of saying I am the man.


Especially since everyone that got on the km get the full value of the kill, instead of dividing the value up among everyone.

Honestly, when you and your 200 dominix allies basically had the FC turn on a target painter so that your collective 1000 drones exploded a frigate

very elite

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#98 - 2014-08-29 14:35:54 UTC
Late to this party but it is an interesting read.
Nice to see that those who are normally laughing it up at others tears are shedding a few themselves so I guess it is all fair play.

Just my thoughts on this topic.

As others have pointed out because CCP admits that a situation needs attention does not make it an exploit. And because you think it is an exploit does not mean that it is.

What the OP is asking for is a risk free way of ganking to add to his KB. The op wants to be able to scan every ship(minus blockade runners) that wonders by so he can decide if the rewards are worth the loses he knows he will take completely eliminating any risk. To add an element of risk for the gankers to the situation there needs to be a way for the potential victim to balance the scales, double wrapping accomplishes this very nicely. As a ganker you know there IS CARGO in the hold you just do not know what it is or how much it may be worth and that adds the element of risk for you.

If CCP removes double wrapping then they need to give the potential targets something to balance the scales. Several thoughts are skills as mentioned above, partial cloaking capabilities, or go with a real world solution and give the haulers a fitting like the radar jamming capabilities of the real world we all live in.

It has been stated that if CCP wanted the haulers to be able to partially or completely hide the contents of their cargo bay they would give the ship a bonus like that given to the blockade runners and my response is this. In the world of EVE it seems logical that enterprising(or scared) haulers would adapt existing technologies to serve their needs, after all this type of thing has gone on throughout all of recorded history.

Another factor here is to look at this game wide. In a recent dev blog CCP admits that there is a lot going on in worm holes that they did not intend to happen. It is the result of enterprising players figuring out the best way to use the game mechanics to their advantage in the same way cargo haulers use the double wrap. If CCP is going to eliminate an unintended situation like the double wrap then to be fair to all players they need to go through the entire game and eliminate ALL unintended uses of game mechanics. To be honest I hope they never do that, it is the interesting ways that people find to use the game mechanics that helps make this game as interesting as it is.

To me the simple resourceful use of a game mechanic becomes an exploit when it is used to give one segment of the players in the game an unfair advantage over all other players, an example was the recently discovered(by CCP anyway) drones exploit. In my assessment of this double wrap it does not give one segment of the game an unfair advantage over all others, it point of fact it simply balances a situation that has always favored the gankers.

I found these on the bio page of a contract hauler I passed in space the other day. Never thought I would need them but they seem appropriate to this discussion.

Ganker = One that does not poses the abilities or have the stones to take on a fair fight.
Ganker = School yard bully trying to prove to themselves how tough they are by fighting those who have little or no possibility to fight back.


Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#99 - 2014-08-29 17:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
The double wrap mechanic is bad but there should be a counter to cargo scanning. I propose a Tinfoil module or material which can be applied to either your ship or cargo. There should be flavours which have different 'chance to scan' reductions. T1 might give a 50% reduction whereas the meta 4 "Dinsdale" variant would give 90%.

A serious proposal in jest.

Edit: for bonus points, a manufacturing component should come solely from salvaging Catalyst hulls to keep things balanced.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

rcs619
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-08-29 22:33:55 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
L

What the OP is asking for is a risk free way of ganking to add to his KB.


Every gank has a risk. There's only a what, 30-40% chance of any particular item to drop? That doesn't even account for neutral loot-whores or other third-parties who might go and interfere. If you don't execute your gank in a quick, efficient and coordinated manner, then it is entirely likely that you'll wind up with nothing but one less ship and less sec-status to work with before you have to pay for tags (which do add up if you aren't getting any drops). And even if you do the gank perfectly, it's also enirely likely that you just won't get a drop and will be out of money and lose sec for nothing anyway.

The risk is that gankers are basically going all-in for what is effectively a gamble. A gamble that 90% of gankees could have avoided, I might add. Most people who get ganked bring it completely on themselves by either hauling an insane amount of stuff, or by not practicing safe hauling habits.

Most ganks don't give you a lot of profit, since you don't get a good drop in most cases. What allows gankers to make money in the end is playing the best odds possible over multiple ganks. Sometimes you get an amazing drop, but a lot of the time you just break even, or make a small profit.

Quote:
To add an element of risk for the gankers to the situation there needs to be a way for the potential victim to balance the scales,


It's called not hauling 10+ billion in a single ship on a single run. Or having support there to web you along. Or paying attention to names in local that might be tailing you. Not even incursion runners actually fly around in their shiny fits. They take proper precautions to allow themselves to fly around between sites without getting ganked.

All plastic wrap does is remove any risk for the hauler. It lets them, effectively, haul just about anything they want with negligable risk because now their charon is a mega-crane. Some gankers might go after it on principle, but give them a couple weeks and I'll show you a bunch of poor, broke-ass gankers.

Quote:
If CCP removes double wrapping then they need to give the potential targets something to balance the scales. Several thoughts are skills as mentioned above, partial cloaking capabilities, or go with a real world solution and give the haulers a fitting like the radar jamming capabilities of the real world we all live in.


So we should add modules that protect a ship against being probed down too, right? Because it's totally not fair if they're just sitting in empty space, semi-afk in an expensive booster, only to be probed down and killed. Any sort of scanning should have a counter right?

Quote:
If CCP is going to eliminate an unintended situation like the double wrap then to be fair to all players they need to go through the entire game and eliminate ALL unintended uses of game mechanics.


So, unless you can fix all the problems at once, you aren't allowed to fix an obvious problem that is being pointed out right now? That is some extremely stupid logic right there.

Quote:
In my assessment of this double wrap it does not give one segment of the game an unfair advantage over all others, it point of fact it simply balances a situation that has always favored the gankers.


But, it gives *all* of the advantage to the haulers. There's literally no way for people trying to gank to counter the plastic wrap. Which essentially makes the whole gameplay style of cargo-scanning useless. I would call any work-around that completely nullifies an entire other play-style an exploit. Or at best a toxic mechanic that needs to be fixed. If haulers need such sweeping protection, why not just remove the cargo-scanner from the game completely? Being able to decide whether or not something is worth it is totally OP. Why not remove local chat in all of known space too? Being able to know how many hostiles are in system so that you can plan accordingly gives so many people such an unfair advantage.