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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1521 - 2014-08-27 12:32:56 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:
Yes! now I remember, those times that you didn't want to get in big fights because of lag, and those damn hamsters dying so fast!

yes the RR was the hint! that was the feature that made us not flying 1.5k vs 1.5k, yes you ppl are right! the RR was the driving force!

ok lets get our **** together, back then when you had more than 500 in system lag was kicking your head till you spit your teeth.

you didn't have the choice to bring those 50 logi's because you needed those DPS! so no logi more DPS ships.

but... go on, tell about history, I like to hear about those glory days of eve and not seeking a solution to the future without those recalls.



This was 2 years before you started playing.



2007 > 2010?

ehm! man! are you ok? did you get from my drugs?


Welp, forums aren't loading histories for me again.

Still, you show a total lack of knowledge of null history, a smaller fleet would often lose the field but win the isk war. There would be endless arguments over who actually won the battle.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1522 - 2014-08-27 12:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: cpt Niki
Yes, I'm not saying anything different, but I don't remember big fights like the ones that we have today because the chances the server could **** himself was damn high.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Major_Fleet_Engagements

YC105 (2003) - 1+ billion isk lost and 25+ ships involved.
YC106 (2004) - 2+ billion isk lost and 50+ ships involved.
YC107 (2005) - 3+ billion isk lost and 75+ ships involved.
YC108 (2006) - 5+ billion isk lost and 100+ ships involved.
YC109 (2007) - 10+ billion isk lost and 200+ ships involved.
YC110 (2008) - 15+ billion isk lost and 250+ ships involved.
YC111 (2009) - 20+ billion isk lost and 300+ ships involved.
In 112 (2010) - 30+ billion isk lost and 400+ ships involved.
In 113 (2011) - 40+ billion isk lost and 500+ ships involved.

back then those "major" battles has 500+ ships involved! 40b+ isk lost.

Yes those times you wanted something that did damage to other ships not a logistic.
and because of lag there was a big possibility for those reps never find their target.

So back then you didn't need logistics because of lag!
Do you say we should bring back lag? that way we will have 500-800 ship max fights in "major" battles.

and it is not shame to say that you didn't saw the "View Older History" on my employment tab, I will understand you, everyone make mistakes but not everyone has has the strength to admit them.

you didn't told me how many actual players have rights in GSF? you have x2 the numbers of those old days and I believe you don't have the double directors to maintain the corp.

Still waiting for those! can you please provide some info? and not say again that the organization will go smooth whatever it happens?

Forgot! shut down the API servers! *maybe I'll put a signature with this...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1523 - 2014-08-27 13:12:08 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:

you didn't told me how many actual players have rights in GSF? you have x2 the numbers of those old days and I believe you don't have the double directors to maintain the corp.




Hundreds. BATs alone have damn near everyone with access to FC tools, run sigs, intel, logistics etc. etc..
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1524 - 2014-08-27 13:27:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:

you didn't told me how many actual players have rights in GSF? you have x2 the numbers of those old days and I believe you don't have the double directors to maintain the corp.




Hundreds. BATs alone have damn near everyone with access to FC tools, run sigs, intel, logistics etc. etc..



No, not that access, I mean hangars, finance, assets rights to do something for the corp.

like Directors rights, those rights make drama those rights make content.

The coalition management is very easy because it is based in third party tools that most of them work with those APIs
You give ingame corporation rights to ppl that you made an background full api check with those third party tools so you can minimize the risk of been betrayed.

if you want to run logistics for a corp it is easy.

I said it earlier in this tread you go out there in a third party tool (navigation dotlan) and see your route.
put your cyno alts there and then you get your JF to do your logistics with one maybe five people running those JF and alts for those cyno's.

Make the logistics active every system moves away or closer to another there are not static LY from one system to the other and you have to be ingame to short where your cyno need to be so you can jump.

make the corp roles a facelift make the game to be based on active players not on the alliance/coalition IT infrastructure.

p.s. the access to those FC tools and all other tools I believe there is no API verification for the character?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1525 - 2014-08-27 13:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
cpt Niki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:

you didn't told me how many actual players have rights in GSF? you have x2 the numbers of those old days and I believe you don't have the double directors to maintain the corp.




Hundreds. BATs alone have damn near everyone with access to FC tools, run sigs, intel, logistics etc. etc..



No, not that access, I mean hangars, finance, assets rights to do something for the corp.



Near everyone in BATs.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1526 - 2014-08-27 13:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: cpt Niki
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:

you didn't told me how many actual players have rights in GSF? you have x2 the numbers of those old days and I believe you don't have the double directors to maintain the corp.




Hundreds. BATs alone have damn near everyone with access to FC tools, run sigs, intel, logistics etc. etc..



No, not that access, I mean hangars, finance, assets rights to do something for the corp.



Near everyone in BATs.


there you are! do you get it? BAT is 200 pilots not 2k not 11k nor a coalition of "I don't know how many"k pilots

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Goonswarm_Federation/corporations

11k pilots, near 300 corporations (many of them one man).
Think what would you do if you don't have those full APIs for a year!

don't tell me those servers was down etc etc ! they were down max 1 day as long as I remember.

Think what would you do to trust all those new recruits? (this is the first step an alliance uses an API key)
Corporations, Alliances and Coalitions are putting all their effort to keep a good third party tool IT infrastructure that is based (most of those tools) in the API keys.

Think how our game would be without that API keys not working for a year?

to shake up the sov null you don't need nerfs boost of a ship or a module you need to shake the fundamentals of the game.
Zylona Femtov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1527 - 2014-08-27 14:22:55 UTC
Null is all about Fat Cat, but not only, low sec and high sec are beginning to be the same, thanks to POCO.


Here few idea :

Most of it should be done throught skills within "Corporation Management"

Station :
Corp could own only five Station and you need to have a high level of CEO skill to have it.
Sovereignty LV1 for the first Station and LV5 for the fith
If you change the CEO and he has not the skill, the station could be attack and conquer within 96H
Alliance cannot own a station.
Allow more station per system with the possibility to anchor either arround a moon, a planet or some orbit arround the sun in the void.
Allow station own by a corp to be use like a NPC, not conquerable if open to everyone, for the other, actual rule apply.
But if you choose to use like an open Station, you cannot go back to a private one, even if sale.
It's a choice that have to be made at the begenning.
Anchored corp station could be sale through contract (I foresee, some thievery here)

POS
Corp there should be a limit in owning a POS like maybe 10 POS gaining throught 2 skill set.
First Skill Pos installation : level 1 skill, require corporation management LV5 and Megacorp LV3
Second Skill Pos Installation Upgrading : Level 7skill, require lv5 in Pos Installation and megacorp management LV5
Anchored Pos could be sale throught contract
In order to do that, fuel consuption have to be lower, since the begenning of PI using a pos has become real pain, price have rise to a huge level.
One solution is to revamp POS and to make skill that allow a real lower consumption or module that harvest solar energy and then lower the use of fuel block.
Price before PI were good, not now.
And since the revamp of industry, POS become completely obsolete.... You even have to pay tax on something you own and work hard to maintain if you built stuff at your own POS, completely and economically wrong (not far from communism).
It's like paying a buttler to use your own toilet everyday.

POCO
Corp could only own 10 POCO
Skill : POCO installation : Level 3 skill, 2 poco per skill, require corporation management LV5 and Megacorp LV1
Anchored POCO could be sale throught contract


I agree that less POS could be a problem for CAP Ship, well station should be bigger and have a module to be able to have CAP docked (I see some screaming already)

Alliance limitation, the number of station per alliance is 10, so a new corp with more station could come in or they have to sale some station


Allow competion, moon have 5 Lagrangian Point in reality, well the same thing could be done ingame, you could have 2 POS per moon (only 2 points are near the moon) the other point could be use for a station.
People will defend there most lucrative moon in that case.
POCO, should be anchored at geostationnary point, there's not limitation really, maybe just a safe distance of 5000 km between each other will do it.


Allow some corp own station in low sec and hight Sec with some limitation, only one in Hight sec, 2 in Low Sec and 5 in null and wormhole, yes station for player in Wormhole.

Wormhole is a universe on it's own, well, they should have POS, POCO, Station, like in null sec

Lower the price to set an alliance, so people will be more volatile.


Player :

Well it could be nice to have your own little station.
And it could have some equipement for building, reprocessing etc..., module you have to add.
Like what you do in a NPC station, but there no tax......as it's your own facility.
Not conquerable, but it could be incapacitated throught attack, that mean, you cannot use the facility during that delay, I would say 96H should do it.
You could have an exchange hangar, through a contract other player could come collect or drop something.
One player could own only 5 player own station.
Skill : Private station : (level 5 skill) , require anchoring lv 5, one station per skill level
Where : anywhere arround geosynchrone orbit arround a planet, with a safe distance of 5000 km to another one or a POCO.
Maybe with the exception of trading system like Jita, Amarr, Rens, etc...

I foresee a lot of opposition, but the only way to unlock part of the game is by limiting the nuissance of FAT CATor any name you could give them.....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1528 - 2014-08-27 17:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
cpt Niki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:

you didn't told me how many actual players have rights in GSF? you have x2 the numbers of those old days and I believe you don't have the double directors to maintain the corp.




Hundreds. BATs alone have damn near everyone with access to FC tools, run sigs, intel, logistics etc. etc..



No, not that access, I mean hangars, finance, assets rights to do something for the corp.



Near everyone in BATs.


there you are! do you get it? BAT is 200 pilots not 2k not 11k nor a coalition of "I don't know how many"k pilots

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Goonswarm_Federation/corporations

11k pilots, near 300 corporations (many of them one man).
Think what would you do if you don't have those full APIs for a year!

don't tell me those servers was down etc etc ! they were down max 1 day as long as I remember.

Think what would you do to trust all those new recruits? (this is the first step an alliance uses an API key)
Corporations, Alliances and Coalitions are putting all their effort to keep a good third party tool IT infrastructure that is based (most of those tools) in the API keys.

Think how our game would be without that API keys not working for a year?

to shake up the sov null you don't need nerfs boost of a ship or a module you need to shake the fundamentals of the game.


We would adapt. We ran large alliances before API and all of our tools can operate without it. API is good to have but not needed to keep us running.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#1529 - 2014-08-27 23:00:48 UTC
API's are really just a blanket or a cushion against possible danger Theyre not like the main wire feeding into the system that keeps the corps heart beating.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#1530 - 2014-08-27 23:18:41 UTC
Zylona Femtov wrote:

WALL OF TEXT ABOUT HIGHSEC, STATION OWNERSHIP, AND POCO'S RUINING EVE


1. If someone puts up a station and they are Gracious enough to make it public i think its damn well within their rights to revoke that. In null sec docking is not a RIGHT its a PRIVLEDGE. Hence why docking rights exist.
2. Making it so corps can only own 5 stations means youll just see holding corps pop up to take back the rest
3. More stations per system make no sense if you need sov to anchor the first one and only 1 person can own sov per system and they take any station already up when they roll the system
4. Selling stations makes renting even worse
5. POS Limits? Again holding corps and same amount of towers, they could start them before the change is implemented and swap ownership before it goes live, therefore avoiding any dropped tower or such already.
6. Solar energy POS seems like a very bad idea since it could crash the fuel market, not like big blocks care about expense anyways.
7. again with POCO's holding corps ( see the reccurring theme here? )
8. Selling POCO's makes no sense either, war dec them and take it, and why would they sell it if in the long run it makes them more than they could sell it for? Or you know sell i then wardec destroy it and put up another ( dont tell me you wouldnt because i would )
9. Space communism is great, and you can set your own tax rates FYI and either way its minimal
10. Caps can already dock, you mixed up caps and supers which is like mixing up dog food and rice ( pretty clear difference )
11. 10 station per alliance but dictated by corp? #Crossedthestreams and again holding allainces, which are just a bit more expensive and would just roll back into he blue donut
12. 2 points on one moon i sort of like but it would need serious balancing, for example 2 towers on a technicium moon recieve a 30% reduction in amount harvested so it doesn't crash the market on moon goo but still has a small benefit to total amount produced.

13. [RANT] - NOPE. No highsec low sec or wormhole stations that would ruin J-Space by offering safe haven its fu**ing meant to be dangerous space where your never safe, your POS can be RF'd your holes rolled, you can be raided by locals and your NEVER SAFE, ruin lowsec by making it more renters online, ruin highsec because renters online and totally damn pointless. and theres no way the empires would let you take their space, its why we take the unclaimed space not theirs, for a good reason its called checks and balances. Have you ever even considered what the repercussions of that would be? And besides wtf is the point of having a station in highsec? Or low sec even if you want a station in highsec wardec the locals and force everyone out and make it your own system, kill or gank anyone who comes in. simple as that. [/RANT]

14. exchange hanger? Like the deliverys one already in game?
15. Player owned stations. Im not even going to go there with whats wrong with that
16. lower alliance costs means easier to form said holding alliances above


I can only support #12 and even then its SUPER IF'y rethink your idea m8 this was terrabad and gamebreaking

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1531 - 2014-08-28 06:48:50 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
API's are really just a blanket or a cushion against possible danger Theyre not like the main wire feeding into the system that keeps the corps heart beating.


So why there is in yours corp info :

Become a Part Of the D.O.D.T. Familiy, Today! Please forward your Application to the corp with a Full API Key Attached and wait for a recruiter to contact you if there are any issues. No Applications will take longer than 48 hours without response.

you don't need it to keep your corp heart beating!
remove that and don't ask for API keys then my friend I will believe you.
Till that day say whatever you want, if you believe that API is nothing start recruiting without API checks start your coms without authentication, start your forum without api auth.

it is not only your corp every single corp in eve now asks full api or custom api.
kill the third party tools make the universe from static to moving make the ly distances from system to system to change dynamically make something that can change the game not just a type of game-play.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1532 - 2014-08-28 10:34:55 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
API's are really just a blanket or a cushion against possible danger Theyre not like the main wire feeding into the system that keeps the corps heart beating.


So why there is in yours corp info :

Become a Part Of the D.O.D.T. Familiy, Today! Please forward your Application to the corp with a Full API Key Attached and wait for a recruiter to contact you if there are any issues. No Applications will take longer than 48 hours without response.

you don't need it to keep your corp heart beating!
remove that and don't ask for API keys then my friend I will believe you.
Till that day say whatever you want, if you believe that API is nothing start recruiting without API checks start your coms without authentication, start your forum without api auth.

it is not only your corp every single corp in eve now asks full api or custom api.
kill the third party tools make the universe from static to moving make the ly distances from system to system to change dynamically make something that can change the game not just a type of game-play.


All of our tools would continue to work without API. How many times must we tell you this?
Anthar Thebess
#1533 - 2014-08-28 10:46:24 UTC
Endless NPC space with occasional pockets of SOV space.
You can drop stations every where , in any sov / NPC space, but all non NPC stations are destroyable.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1534 - 2014-08-28 11:02:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


All of our tools would continue to work without API. How many times must we tell you this?


I say everything that gives ingame info to third party tools from the game the API is the easy way because you just turn off a port or block traffic.

So delete your API and let me know how it worked for you.
stay without API for a year.

think it as a test, if it makes your game life more difficult that is what I'm targeting the IT middle management.

every tool I have used or made need something that the game gives it to me freely without logging.

My assets? API
My repro tool? (some formulas that I also get from the dev blogs)
I need locations or items (db dump and I can do anything)

when I say make the game difficult I mean no third party tools.
Only ingame, nothing to be monitored out of game.

Am I clear now? do you want me to spell it?

Yes I mean none of your tools that work atm to be able to work.
That is my point.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1535 - 2014-08-28 11:59:21 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


All of our tools would continue to work without API. How many times must we tell you this?


I say everything that gives ingame info to third party tools from the game the API is the easy way because you just turn off a port or block traffic.

So delete your API and let me know how it worked for you.
stay without API for a year.

think it as a test, if it makes your game life more difficult that is what I'm targeting the IT middle management.

every tool I have used or made need something that the game gives it to me freely without logging.

My assets? API
My repro tool? (some formulas that I also get from the dev blogs)
I need locations or items (db dump and I can do anything)

when I say make the game difficult I mean no third party tools.
Only ingame, nothing to be monitored out of game.

Am I clear now? do you want me to spell it?

Yes I mean none of your tools that work atm to be able to work.
That is my point.


But they will all still work.

Our communications, our forums, our intel systems, out broadcasts for fleets, logistics, POS management. All of it will continue without an API. You cant stop us using out of game tools.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1536 - 2014-08-28 12:32:35 UTC
what part you can't understand?

ok let me explain you have your tool that use a db downloaded from CCP because atm CCP gives that db to you!
let us go to an era where this think it is ban-able and you can't use this think nor you can download it?

so there will be NO third party tools anymore.

and making\using one it is resulting a permanent ban!

do you understand?

no dotlan, no evemon, no eveHQ, no staticmapper, no zkillboards, no item db, no eve-agents, no fuzzwork, no garpa, no EFT no https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/3rd_party_tools nothing null can you imagine that?

that is what I mean, all the management that is now possible from some infrastructure not being anymore possible.

it is that simple.
and yes will change the game and your gameplay.
Do you recruit with API key? please if you do don't answer again.
If you could do it without it you wouldn't using it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1537 - 2014-08-28 13:54:35 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
what part you can't understand?

ok let me explain you have your tool that use a db downloaded from CCP because atm CCP gives that db to you!
let us go to an era where this think it is ban-able and you can't use this think nor you can download it?

so there will be NO third party tools anymore.

and making\using one it is resulting a permanent ban!

do you understand?

no dotlan, no evemon, no eveHQ, no staticmapper, no zkillboards, no item db, no eve-agents, no fuzzwork, no garpa, no EFT no https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/3rd_party_tools nothing null can you imagine that?

that is what I mean, all the management that is now possible from some infrastructure not being anymore possible.

it is that simple.
and yes will change the game and your gameplay.
Do you recruit with API key? please if you do don't answer again.
If you could do it without it you wouldn't using it.


We manually input the info. You are literally punishing everyone and doing nothing to stop us from using our tools. Well done.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#1538 - 2014-08-28 17:01:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:
what part you can't understand?

ok let me explain you have your tool that use a db downloaded from CCP because atm CCP gives that db to you!
let us go to an era where this think it is ban-able and you can't use this think nor you can download it?

so there will be NO third party tools anymore.

and making\using one it is resulting a permanent ban!

do you understand?

no dotlan, no evemon, no eveHQ, no staticmapper, no zkillboards, no item db, no eve-agents, no fuzzwork, no garpa, no EFT no https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/3rd_party_tools nothing null can you imagine that?

that is what I mean, all the management that is now possible from some infrastructure not being anymore possible.

it is that simple.
and yes will change the game and your gameplay.
Do you recruit with API key? please if you do don't answer again.
If you could do it without it you wouldn't using it.


We manually input the info. You are literally punishing everyone and doing nothing to stop us from using our tools. Well done.


Hes right, if you have such a hard time accepting the universal use of 3rd party tools you really should find a more productive way to use it. its not 3rd party tools like API management that ruin the game its 3rd party tools like ISBOXER that do ( not the place for that arguement ).

Theres no harm in asking for API because anyone who wants to spy can create a clean API pretty easily if they want in bad enough they will find a door and a way past your bouncer.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Richensale Lafortune
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1539 - 2014-08-29 04:40:33 UTC
Just to go with the OP. I totally agree. Even tho I have started playing Eve recently, I'm charmed by the older, harder way.
Null-Sec is boring as can be... Makes me thinks of real world... Boring Status Quo.

I would enjoy seeing how all those corps/coalitons/alliances would adapt.
Anthar Thebess
#1540 - 2014-08-31 21:33:57 UTC
Never forget!

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!