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[Hyperion] Nestor Tweaks

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Wrent Simulus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#441 - 2014-08-25 16:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrent Simulus
Vivianne Athonille wrote:
If you are really trying to make this a Jack Of All Trades support ship, you may need to consider allowing an unbonused Warfare Link and Command Processors.



I'd agree with this, drop the laser bonuses, allow it to fit Command processors and alter the rep bonuses to be both shield and armor, and boost the repair range bonus to 350-500% range.

It still won't step on dedicated logi's toes (way too expensive to be used on a large scale, much shorter range on reps, cap issues, etc) but it will clear up what its intent is, which in this iteration would be a mid-level support ship capable of bringing value to multiple venues (wormhole day-tripping, mission groups, lowsec roaming, scout/vg incursions, etc) without being overwhelmingly good.

*edit*

This of course hinges on this fitting in with the developers vision of the vessel.

*edit 2*

it's -> its
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#442 - 2014-08-25 16:33:56 UTC
The Nestor is in a bad time for Battleships in EVE, making it hard to know if the Nestor is the problem or if it's just the fact that it's a battleship and nobody wants to use it for that reason and that reason alone.
Ixianna Svartalfar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#443 - 2014-08-25 18:54:48 UTC
The Astero is a great addition to the newer players' arsenals for exploration with near Cov-ops competency. With the added kicker of it can tank and fight, it has become a common stepping stone between Cov-ops and Recons for PVP use. As a scout it's agile as a frigate, yet still vicious enough to fight cruisers.

The Stratios was an entirely new idea for a cruiser from a "pirate" faction, and it was wildly successful. It is great stepping stone between Recons and T3s without really eclipsing either one enough to displace them. Stratios are exploding in all areas of space, only to be replaced to explode anew. That is the hallmark of a good ship.

The significant mass changes may make the Nestor a new(er) player Guardian/Oneiros replacement ship, and with a 2.5x force multiplier for that role. Just because it costs a lot doesn't mean folks won't fly it anyhow. Just because it's roles are a little odd doesn't mean we wont find a use for it.

Someone already posted an idea of daytripping in C5s to loot the goods from a few WH relic sites. That's the kind of innovative use I can get behind, and it doesn't have the potential for skill loss like a T3 would. Lets face it, a brick tanked T3 for exploration handles like a pig, so why not get a cow go with it, and just have fun?

~

One minor change I would like to see is an agility and speed increase over the previous stated values. It's true, using the MWD all day has no real sig bloom issues against the ship because it's already huge, but the cap needs for that are countered by the cap need for it's remote repairer systems. How about tuning it more for AB use instead? As for alignment times, isn't that what webbers are for?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#444 - 2014-08-25 22:21:17 UTC
Battleships need work, period.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
chris Olgidar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#445 - 2014-08-26 08:26:07 UTC
They really do
DaJokr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#446 - 2014-08-26 16:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: DaJokr
I feel like whoever implemented these changes has never been in a C5/C6 armor fight before.

Nestor is useless for wormhole fights with these changes, if you can't accelerate or turn in any reasonable amount of time, you're dead. Wormhole armor brawls are close range, and tend to require orbiting closely or burning through a bubble to engage.

Faction battleship align times with one plate, skirmish links and a Gist X-Type 100mn Afterburner

Vindicator: 10.4s - 565 m/s
Machariel: 11.3s - 725 m/s
Barghest: 11.8s - 654 m/s
Nightmare: 14.8s - 1041 m/s
Bhaalgorn: 14.9s - 449 m/s
Rattlesnake: 15.5s - 414 m/s

Nestor pre-patch: 15.6s - 520 m/s
Nestor post-patch: 22.1s - 523 m/s (stopwatched, pyfa/eft not updated)

Bhaalgorns are fat, and already at a severe risk for dread blapping if they can't get into an orbit quickly even with their sig being lower than Nestors post-patch (400 vs 420). Nestors are now guaranteed death with one dread and a loki on field. You recover speed much slower after webs get jammed off -> you die.

This was my Nestor vs dreads last patch, where I got into orbit quickly and still nearly died during the fight, take a guess as to how that would go this patch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GWfJkn3Zz8

http://puu.sh/b8Jrc/d601f4410c.jpg RIP sweet prince, you're going back to Jita.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#447 - 2014-08-26 16:33:17 UTC
DaJokr wrote:
I feel like whoever implemented these changes has never been in a C5/C6 armor fight before.

Nestor is useless for wormhole fights with these changes, if you can't accelerate or turn in any reasonable amount of time, you're dead. Wormhole armor brawls are close range, and tend to require orbiting closely or burning through a bubble to engage.

Faction battleship align times with one plate, skirmish links and a Gist X-Type 100mn Afterburner

Vindicator: 10.4s - 565 m/s
Machariel: 11.3s - 725 m/s
Barghest: 11.8s - 654 m/s
Nightmare: 14.8s - 1041 m/s
Bhaalgorn: 14.9s - 449 m/s
Rattlesnake: 15.5s - 414 m/s

Nestor pre-patch: 15.6s - 520 m/s
Nestor post-patch: 22.1s - 523 m/s (stopwatched, pyfa/eft not updated)

Bhaalgorns are fat, and already at a severe risk for dread blapping if they can't get into an orbit quickly even with their sig being lower than Nestors post-patch (400 vs 420). Nestors are now guaranteed death with one dread and a loki on field. You recover speed much slower after webs get jammed off -> you die.

This was my Nestor vs dreads last patch, where I got into orbit quickly and still nearly died during the fight, take a guess as to how that would go this patch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GWfJkn3Zz8

http://puu.sh/b8Jrc/d601f4410c.jpg RIP sweet prince, you're going back to Jita.


your nestor was useless anyway, and you forgot to complain about dreadnoughts being broken.
Tennej
LoTax POCO Company of HiSEC
#448 - 2014-08-26 17:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tennej
Damn not only did they not give it a speed increase....they slowed it down even more....

What a piece of crap.....

Off to Jita we go.....

You Miners think you have it so damn tough.  When I first started playing we didnt even have mining lasers.  You had to fly close to an asteroid.....pop a hatch and gnaw at it with your teeth.   - Bitter Vet
Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#449 - 2014-08-26 17:55:32 UTC
I just realised I can fit the Zephyr into the maintenance bay! Gets better and better!
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#450 - 2014-08-27 12:39:01 UTC
I honestly think the Nestor can be a good ship: with its current bonuses it could work as a mobile fleet-wide reffiting/quick repairs (repairs as much as 2'5 Guardians) service that doesn't need to be anchored and that can defend itself pretty good too. Would work especially well in W-space; I imagine T3 gangs with 1 or 2 Nestors working as described entering even C1 WH's due to battlecruiser-like mass.

Many people want a covops cloak for it, but it's a battleship after all. If anything, I'd give it the same cloaking capabilities of Black Ops (zero targeting delay, zero scan resolution penalty, increased max speed while cloaked), but without bridging capabilities (they don't make sense on a WH ship, and yes, it is a WH ship). That way it could move around as a mobile base much easier.

I'm pretty confident CCP will continue to make tweaks to it. The new small expansion method is good for adjusting things; it's better to make small, measured changes instead of big, esporadic ones that can break balance.

On this page, there are some changes that could benefit the Nestor in future tweaks. They seem quite reasonable.
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#451 - 2014-08-27 14:51:56 UTC
So, I spent a fair amount of time last night trying to find a decent way to setup for my Nestor last night, and I just couldn't do it. I realize it's been designed with wormholes in mind, but if I can't make a decent fitting normally I have no idea how someone is supposed to use it in a more unpredictable and dangerous area like the wormholes.

I know the mass changes allow the Nestor to traverse more wormholes than any other BS, but the required trade offs are extremely severe. The base speed is equivalent to a Moros and, due to the high inertia isn't much better than one. This means that even though the Nestor CAN traverse wormholes, it's far to slow and unwieldy to keep up with, and support, ships on the other side.

Honestly, it was probably a better wormhole support ship before the changes.

Since the Nestor has always been suffering a little bit of an identity crisis, with a ton of skills that don't synergize with each other, I have a suggestion:

- Give the Nestor a sensible mass/inertia/velocity profile for a BS
- Remove everything except for the remote rep, drone, and armor bonuses
- Give it a Role bonus along the lines of : 'Effective mass is [X] when traversing wormholes'

At that point you can re-balance the Nestor to be an effective logistics ship instead of trying to maintain the balanced, but rather ineffective, stats and slot layout it currently needs to support every single option.

Please at least consider this, or another major change. The Nestor just does not, and can not, work in it's current form. It's a ship that's designed to be the core of a small fleet where most of it's functionality is redundant, made useless by the fact that other ships WILL do a better job. Until it looses all the secondary roles, and no longer needs the balanced stats to support them, the Nestor will always be a subpar ship and no amount of tweaking will change that.
Wrent Simulus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#452 - 2014-08-27 15:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrent Simulus
Komodo Askold wrote:
I honestly think the Nestor can be a good ship: with its current bonuses it could work as a mobile fleet-wide reffiting/quick repairs (repairs as much as 2'5 Guardians) service that doesn't need to be anchored and that can defend itself pretty good too. Would work especially well in W-space; I imagine T3 gangs with 1 or 2 Nestors working as described entering even C1 WH's due to battlecruiser-like mass.

Many people want a covops cloak for it, but it's a battleship after all. If anything, I'd give it the same cloaking capabilities of Black Ops (zero targeting delay, zero scan resolution penalty, increased max speed while cloaked), but without bridging capabilities (they don't make sense on a WH ship, and yes, it is a WH ship). That way it could move around as a mobile base much easier.

I'm pretty confident CCP will continue to make tweaks to it. The new small expansion method is good for adjusting things; it's better to make small, measured changes instead of big, esporadic ones that can break balance.

On this page, there are some changes that could benefit the Nestor in future tweaks. They seem quite reasonable.


To your latter point, I agree and have hope that there will continue to be changes made to this hull. I think alot of folks on these forums see it moving in the direction of a mobile base/mini-carrier, my only hope is that our vision of what this hull is supposed to be fits with what the developers are thinking.

I know it's tough, and there's probably hesitation due to potential backlash of "you promised X, but gave Y!" but I'd like to re-iterate my request for, even in the broadest possible terms, what the intent of this vessel is supposed to be?

It seems pretty clear that you're moving it towards a Wormhole of all shapes and sizes support vessel, which makes me think that some of the recommendations posted here and elsewhere are in the right-ish direction. But lets see if a short summary of them would help:

Remote Repping
- Make the repair bonuses apply to both shield and armor
- Provide some reduction in cap usage for remote reps
- Increase range bonuses to remote reps
- Alter rep cycles to triage-type repping
- Give bonus to remote cap xfer
-

Fitting tweeks
- Increase the base powergrid slightly to give some flexibility
- Shift a lowslot to a midslot
- Allow it to fit fleet assistance modules
- Allow it to fit covert cloak
- Blops bridges
- Give it a jump drive
- Small-ish (500-1000m3) fleet hanger
- Bump up the SMA to fit a frigate
- Capacitor help
- Shielded capacitor (neut resistance)
- Allow it to fit a bastion/bastion-type module
- Increase drone bandwidth to 150m

Generally identified issues with the hull
- Price
- Speed
- Odd role bonuses considering the hull size (even if they don't "cost" anything)
- Playerbase generally confused as to intent of ship
- Super - niche uses making the hull outperformed in almost all cases
- Repair range cripples it as a logi platform

General desire for hull
- A BS sized logi ship
- General-support ship for roams / fleets
- Practical (not hyper niche) usage
- Not to be too good in too many area's, steer clear of "overpowered"
- Decide on a role for the hull and design to that, don't take existing bonuses and attempt to force ship into a variety of roles


These are suggestions I've seen in this forum, other sites, and other forums, they're not all my own, but I was just hoping to get something of a coherent list together after 20+ pages of discussion have occurred.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#453 - 2014-08-27 18:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Komodo Askold
Wrent Simulus wrote:
These are suggestions I've seen in this forum, other sites, and other forums, they're not all my own, but I was just hoping to get something of a coherent list together after 20+ pages of discussion have occurred.
Good idea with that summary. I also agree CCP should give a word on what vision do they have for the ship. In my opinion, it's a W-space support vessel; it's how it seems to lean towards.

Bastion module? Didn't see that before... Could be interesting as a un-jammable, extra-tanky logi/drone boat. I see 2 problems though: 1) that module is fairly skill intensive, and 2) not being able to move in W-space for 1 minute can be very dangerous (although it's not neccesarily bad; Marauders are very tough, and any W-pilot should be hooked to the D-Scan button anyway). Might be worth considering though.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#454 - 2014-08-27 18:06:34 UTC
Make the Nestor a Battlecruiser… Give it a faster warp speed, higher velocity, inertia - and give it a Covert Ops cloak already.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Wrent Simulus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#455 - 2014-08-27 18:26:00 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
Wrent Simulus wrote:
These are suggestions I've seen in this forum, other sites, and other forums, they're not all my own, but I was just hoping to get something of a coherent list together after 20+ pages of discussion have occurred.
Good idea with that summary. I also agree CCP should give a word on what vision do they have for the ship. In my opinion, it's a W-space support vessel; it's how it seems to lean towards.

Bastion module? Didn't see that before... Could be interesting as a un-jammable, extra-tanky logi/drone boat. I see 2 problems though: 1) that module is fairly skill intensive, and 2) not being able to move in W-space for 1 minute can be very dangerous (although it's not necessarily bad; Marauders are very tough, and any W-pilot should be hooked to the D-Scan button anyway). Might be worth considering though.



It came up I think twice in this thread, I'm not 100% on it to be honest, but I wanted to include for completeness.

I do agree with your assertion that the hull is/should be geared towards Wormhole living/roaming/life.

My own personal hope would be a versatile logistics platform that could be used in a variety of situations. Hell, I think it'd be a really fun vessel to fly in incursions and mission/plex groups (even taking into account cost) as a versatile platform to support fleets, as my own play style leans towards support/logistics roles.
Vivianne Athonille
WHolely Unacceptable
#456 - 2014-08-27 19:28:05 UTC
Wrent Simulus wrote:
My own personal hope would be a versatile logistics platform that could be used in a variety of situations. Hell, I think it'd be a really fun vessel to fly in incursions and mission/plex groups (even taking into account cost) as a versatile platform to support fleets, as my own play style leans towards support/logistics roles.


This is exactly why I threw out the unbonused Warfare Link at the last moment. Gives it yet another support option, but with no bonuses it wouldn't be the preferred answer. For that matter, don't allow it to fit a link by default but allow Command Processors so it could fit links if the pilot is also willing to give up a mid slot (and a chunk of CPU) for each link.

Flexibility, but at a price.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2014-08-28 08:44:31 UTC
As I've said before. It's all too much for one ship.

Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)

Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#458 - 2014-08-28 10:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battleships need work, period.



Agreed. Battleships lost HALF of their mobility recently. HALF. And go t NOTHING in return.

IT take so long to move a battleship to where it would beneeded that the marginal power it brings is irrelevant. Battleships would need to be VASTLY more pwoerful to compensate the travel time associated now.


ALL battleships should gain some 15-20% EHP, 15-20% more DPS and large repairers /x-large boosters should get a tad stronger as well ( 10% or so). B attleships also need a tad higher sub warp speeds.

When their base speed is so slow the specific values are irrelevant. All battleships shoudl be some 25% FASTER on their base speed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vivianne Athonille
WHolely Unacceptable
#459 - 2014-08-28 11:45:50 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)

Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other!


I may be wrong, but I think CCP has ruled out the CovOps/BLOPs already.

One reason I put the Links out there is it appears that every size class of ship from Cruisers to Titans have an option for fitting Links EXCEPT for BS. If the goal is a support-type BS that can do anything (albeit not very well), then this could be the opportunity to plug this hole.
Wrent Simulus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#460 - 2014-08-28 14:29:50 UTC
Vivianne Athonille wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Create a BC to be the support ship (RR and Links) which could easily be justified to have a Cov Ops cloak (it's DPS potential would be on par with a Stratios, it would just tank better)

Make the Nestor an actual BS that is a BLOPs BS. Not a bonkers everything. Let it keep the SMA and give it a very small fleet hanger. Allow it to bridge too. Then the SoE ship line up has continuity and synergy with each other!


I may be wrong, but I think CCP has ruled out the CovOps/BLOPs already.

One reason I put the Links out there is it appears that every size class of ship from Cruisers to Titans have an option for fitting Links EXCEPT for BS. If the goal is a support-type BS that can do anything (albeit not very well), then this could be the opportunity to plug this hole.



I think we're talking in the same direction here. I personally don't like the idea of CovOps/Blops or JumpDrive on this hull, partly because it just doesn't feel right on a ship that large, and partly because I think all you're doing is adding another gimmick on a ship that allows it to move around and.... then what? It still wouldn't address the underlying issues of her and we'd end up right back here trying to sort out better bonuses.

Links, and a re-focus on logistics support would breathe much needed life into this hull and provide for a variety of interesting gaming options.