Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Let's make T3's completly irrelevant because you want to fly T2's. Logic. Why i can't expect modulat design to be good? Can i change fits during combat? Why they are so powerfull with same stats or a bit worse as T2's? Rigged for ECM T3 damage dealer won't be as good as combat rigged T2 HAC (assuming T2=T3). What do you think about last HAC's tweaks? Now imagine small steps in T3 rebalance.

What if they were just slightly worse than T2 at everything but you got to refit in space without a refitting station?

So yeah, you're not as good as a guardian or a zealot or a curse, but you can switch roles mid combat without having to dock somewhere to provide extra rep or damage or Ewar as you need.

I still dont see t3's being op against anything because they are t3's alone. People spend billions on advanced modules to fit to these ships. They spend billions more on implants. They arent better than t2's at any specific role, however, given the amount of isk that goes into these things, people can more than hold themselves in combat while being fit for another role, like scanning etc....

Sorry but...they are. T2 fitted Proteus gets a MUCH stiffer tank than a T2 fitted Deimos for a rather small cost upgrade (compared to "billions of expensive modules".

What people don't want to see anymore are T2 150k EHP Proteus with 910 DPS.

That's a T2 fit. Not a single faction/officer/deadspace module.

Now compare that to a Deimos. At most, you get something around 800 DPS with half the tank. That's what's wrong, there is no denying that. Heavy Assault Cruiser really are subpar at being heavy assault cruiser compared to most T3s.

What I want to change with the things I've proposed is exactly that.

Have the massive EHP upgrade compared to HAC bring a DPS loss (Can't have both, you know ?)

Upgrade T3s mobility so that they reach HAC levels in HAC-tanks configurations while keeping current DPS (Yes, they'll be HAC+, but considering the upgrade in cost and the fact that it's not really a MASSIVE DPS upgrade, It's fine)

T3 versatility should be top notch (Refitting/changing subs without exterior help, no rigs, etc)

T3s won't replace T2, they'll still be quite a lot more expensive, they won't have special advantages T2s have (like sig-radius reduction, amazing capacitor life, fantastic ECCM strenght) or at least not all of them at the same time like HACs.

Yeah well, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

You can have a 70k EHP 800 DPS Deimos, you can have a 150k EHP 600 DPS Proteus, you can have a 70k EHP 900 DPS Proteus with HAC-like agility (but no MWD sig bloom reduction or no HAC-like ECCM strenght etc).

Mobility = reduced EHP
EHP = reduced mobility and damage
Damage = reduced tank

It's all a trade-off. I want T3s to be able to compare to their races' T2 ships in terms of stats (if not a bit higher stats than the T2 ships) but without the special things T2 ships get (like the smaller sig, MWD sig bloom, cap use reduced, ECCM strenght and so on).

The problem with comparing the T3 to the HAC on just DPS and EHP is that it overlooks key points. That T3 is going to move with the mobility of a cement mixer, meanwhile that Diemost will run circles around it, with its tiny little sig.

The key points are EHP, DPS, Mobility.

Those are the main values that dictate if a ship is good or not, in terms of pure combat (I'm not talking about Recons or special roles here).

Combat T3 and T2 HACs should be comparable. Different, but comparable considering they're both combat ships, ruled by the 3 main points, being Firepower, Defense and Mobility.

Let me add a few things to James Baboli's list :

All :

Cov ops = Ok

Interdiction Nullifier = Ok

Supplemental coolant Injector = Needs an interesting additionnal/different bonus, or a serious buff to the current "Heat damage reduction" bonus. I was thinking "Buff to overheating effectiveness", to replicate Red Giant effects, that would be interesting ? As long as the bonus is powerful enough to warrant not using the other 2 good engineering subs.

+ Adaptive Augmenter/Adaptive Shielding = Logistic subsystems are terrible. Nothing to add to that. It really needs a range bonus to be effective. I think something can be done with a 25-35km range.

+ Warfare Processor = As long as the Boosting subsystem wrecks the whole ship by requiring Command Processors, it will be either off-grid boosting, or no boosting at all. Allow 2 links online without Command Processors and add +1 Highslot to those subs. It will still be worse than Command-ships in terms of boosting, but at least it will be usable with a combat-fit, like CS, as opposed to constantly hiding in safes.

+ All mobility/speed subsystems = T3s in general have the agility and speed of a cement truck. There should be subs designed to bring regular cruiser levels of agility and speed (I'm talking +1.8km/s speeds to the slowest T3s, 2-2.2km/s speeds to the fastest T3s). If T3s keep their current BC-level agility and speed...well, it will be a shame for T3 "versatility" if not a single T3 can have cruiser-like speeds.

Proteus:

Augmented Plating = Too much EHP
Friction Extension Processor = Mhmm, yeah maybe a bit over the top.
Drone Synthesis Projector = Yep, sucks big times. It needs more bandwith, more drone-bay, and a drone-related bonus instead of the 5% damage bonus for 3 guns...Like a drone-velocity or drone-tracking bonus maybe ?

+ No damping sub ? Could be interesting to convert one of the least used Electronic subs to a damping sub.

+ I'd like to see a shield subsystem for the Proteus. Gallente ships can be shield fit, why not the Proteus ?

Tengu:
Rifling Launcher Pattern = You say it's too powerful, I'm not so sure about that.
Obfuscation Manifold = Working along with the Rifling Launcher Pattern, it brings a "Combat ECM boat" feel to the Tengu, which means a ship that can actually tanks and deal damage, while being able to jam reasonably well. I like that, it's versatility. DPS is subpar, Jamming power isn't Falcon-like of course. But the mix of the two works (or should work decently when T3 mobility/agility issue is fixed).

Amplification Node = It's a regular active tanking bonus. I don't see what's wrong.
Supplemental Screening = Too much EHP probably. Less than Proteus/Legions, but it's still a bit over the top.

+ Power Core Multiplier = This sub, bonused for PWG, gets less PWG than the Capacitor Regeneration Matrix. Needs a nice PWG boost obviously, so that 100MN fits will use this one and have to deal with capacitor issues (More vulnerability to neuting too)

+ Gravitationnal Capacitor = Uninteresting bonuses tbh. The Tengu could use a good MWD-bonused sub. This one brings the most max velocity, but even with it being the most MWD oriented sub, A MWDing Tengu with a nano gets 1488m/s. That's terrible.

+ Magnetic Infusion Basin = Maybe 20% Optimal per level is a bit too much. I would rather see 10% per level along with a 5% damage per level. Better DPS, lower range. That way, it doesn't step too much on the Eagles' toes.

Legion:
Augmented plating = Too much EHP
Drone synthesis projector = It's horrible, period.
Liquid Crystal magnifiers = I disagree, it's basically Zealot-style bonuses. I don't really see what's wrong here.

+ Assault Optimization = Might want to change "HAM Damage bonus" to "Missile Damage bonus". More versatility, and I don't see how it would wreck the current meta

+ Wake Limiter = Mhmm, that subsystem really doesn't shine. Could use a nice mass-reduction bonus (or an agility bonus), a speed buff to bring a bit closer to the pure MWD subsystem.


Loki :

Adaptive augmenter = Nope, I don't really see what's wrong. If anything, add an Armor RR bonus to that one, when RR subs are fixed it will make the Loki the only T3 that can be a logi for both shield and armor (Not at the same time ofc, that would be terrible).

Hardpoint Effeciency Configuration = Totally agree, this sub needs to be the top brawling sub for the Loki (ie the Max DPS one). It doesn't have damage projection bonus, which should be kept that way. The issue is, you absolutly need the maximum amount of highslots available. And for that, you need to get rid of the good active tanking subs. This is why the dual-weapon sub isn't used much. The DPS is alright, but the required subs to reach it wreck the ship.

Projectile Scoping Array = Yep, but it's not the sub, it's the weapon system. Medium ACs and ACs in general are subpar, and that makes the Loki subpar despite being a pretty good gunboat

Augmented Capacitor Reservoir = Mhmm, 1677 GJ instead of 2228 GJ with the Cap-Regen-Matrix. Nah seriously, Cap-Regen Matrix subs aren't balanced with other Engineering subs for each race. This needs fixing.

Why covops subsystem is overpowerd? 100% CPU reduction? same bonus on recon ships. Covop cloak? That's why it's called COVOP subsystem. Dmg bonus? only Proteus has bonus to damage, rest have nondirect bonuses.

Nullifier subsystem is obviously OP, but it's to be or not to be. There's nothing in beetwen. That's why this ships have SP loss. Powerfull ability but huge drawback.

If we start to make limitations which subsystem can or can't be fitted with others it wouldn't make sense to build modular ships.

^^ Granted the HACs will get a little better speed and mobility in like for like configurations - if you aim for similiar EHP and damage as the equivalent HAC you can get quite close to the same mobility - you do actually end up with slightly more EHP/damage and slightly less mobility.

But you can also do pretty crazy fits with T3s (not like for like with their T2 counterpart) which have great mobility.

My tengu moves almost 3 km/s, just learn how tengus are REALLY fit for speed. And in fact how any of the non proteus t3 are really fit when on kiting mode.