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Why don't they attack?

First post
Author
Maichin Civire
#1 - 2014-08-27 17:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Maichin Civire
So there we are, YC115, major empires still exist.

They exist, but only "still".

Capsuleers are more powerfull every day. Right now, two of the most powerful coalitions, have estimated about 300 titans available - when Elder Fleet fielded three of them, and it was considered really powerful fleet. They don't fear Empire, they don't even fear CONCORD. If they've gathered all their numbers and come to Yulai, even in battleships, they would be able to destroy this poor station - that de facto is still damaged - could be destroyed in minutes, or even in secons, and no one could stop them. So why don't they do it?

What is the thing that is stopping null-sec behemots from destroying all core empires? Do they have any special weapon, the last line of defence? Or the empires have just unlimited amount of ships and soldiers in reserve?

EDIT wrong forum, can anyone move it to EVE Fiction?
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#2 - 2014-08-27 19:48:54 UTC
The narative that null sec entities are becoming more powerful than empires is just told so they can feel important.
Don't think such thing will and should happen as a part of the fiction.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#3 - 2014-08-27 20:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Maichin Civire wrote:
So there we are, YC115, major empires still exist.

They exist, but only "still".

Capsuleers are more powerfull every day. Right now, two of the most powerful coalitions, have estimated about 300 titans available - when Elder Fleet fielded three of them, and it was considered really powerful fleet. They don't fear Empire, they don't even fear CONCORD. If they've gathered all their numbers and come to Yulai, even in battleships, they would be able to destroy this poor station - that de facto is still damaged - could be destroyed in minutes, or even in secons, and no one could stop them. So why don't they do it?

What is the thing that is stopping null-sec behemots from destroying all core empires? Do they have any special weapon, the last line of defence? Or the empires have just unlimited amount of ships and soldiers in reserve?

EDIT wrong forum, can anyone move it to EVE Fiction?


This comes up now and then and the answer is still the same: The NullSec-empires are essentially hollow shells supported by hordes of capsuleers. Impressive on the battlefield, but without the population and industry base for waging a conventional war.

And since there are a lot of capsuleers loyal to the empires, they could easily nullify the NullSec-empires one strength.

Having titans isn't going to change that since only "downgraded" version of the full military versions are available for capsuleers. Also the entirety of empire-space is cyno-jammed, so an incursion by NullSec would have to break into a system first using BlackOps, neutralizing the cyno-jammers, then bringing in the big guns.

Which makes it really easy for a defender to just concentrate at an important crossroad-system full of gates and force NullSec-empires into a meatgrinder they can't win.

I could go on like this for hours, by the way. But I'm stopping now to show mercy. Pirate
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#4 - 2014-08-28 08:23:18 UTC
The Capsuleers getting more powerful then the Empires is a story that's been developing for a long time now, but capsuleers are still far from challenging the empires as a power themselves.

Military, the large capsuleer groups can match the empires in might and even exceed them in some ways. However, the capsuelers, even those in null are currently too dependant on the empires for resources, manpower & production for their fleets.

On top of it, capsuleers can field massive fleets, because they don't have to patrol the systems & borders, unlike the empires do. Capsuleers can get away with it due to the sparse population. If empires had no need to patrol systems, they could field formidable fleets as well. The Coronation of Empress Jamyl showed a small part of the Imperial fleet on it's video.
Also, remember, there's Concord & empire controlled cyno jammers in every highsec system. While they can get shut down by attacking Concord (see Elder Fleet attack, Caldari prime battle & Colelie incident) they can also get online fast, trapping hostile ships, hence attacks on highsec rarely involve more then a handful of ships. Never deploy more then you can afford to loose.
If nullsec entites would face a similar issue in attacks, I doubt they would field hundreds of capitals in a single attack, only to see them getting trapped when the cyno-jammers get back online after a few hours.

Also, Concord has a firm control over us, wether you like it or not. They can shut us down at a whim, should such extreme cause as you mention ever happen (united front of capsuleers against empire). However, shutting us down is not something that'll happen anytime soon, simply because capsuleers would find a way around it. It's already known that there's capsuleers or capsuleer-like entities existing beyond Concord control.
Example is Sansha's Nation, the various pirate capsuleers (the NPC's) and now the Burner NPc's (who hint at some experimental tech involving capsules, but better )

Last but certainly not least, why capsuleers won't ever attack the empires: self-regulation. Attacking empire space (and vice versa, empires attacking Nullsec) would consume so much resources, manpower & time that competitors would readily attack & take over such weakened aggressor.

So while capsuleer power is growing, they, for now, lack the foundation to challenge the Empires. They have the military power, but lack the requirements to sustain a prolonged attack on the empires (as that means existing while being cut off from all things highsec)
The Great Wars (BoB vs Goons) do show capsuleers can sustain a prolonged war, as long as they can draw upon the resources of highsec. To do the same without empire resources to draw upon is unlikely

PS Bonus info: Jovians & Caldari State do recognize the large sov-holding alliances as independant souvereign states (this came to light during the Jovian ambassador trip years ago) However, the others do not!

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#5 - 2014-08-29 16:18:23 UTC
This thread has been moved to EVE Fiction.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#6 - 2014-08-29 21:57:53 UTC
Single greatest hurdle with null taking over empire would be, I imagine, to get nullsec powerblocks to work together and not stab eachother in the back when the opportunity arises.
Maichin Civire
#7 - 2014-08-30 18:31:31 UTC
Now, the second way. Does anybody have an idea, why don't Empires attack null sec capsuleer-run entities? These territories are damn rich, moon goo, roids, possibilities of securing the borders and huge areas to expand... Is it because pirate presence there is much bigger, or is it because CONCORD isn't allowing them to do so? Or is it just maybe Empires don't want to do it, because it would give them more problems than advantages?
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2014-08-31 01:11:46 UTC
Maichin Civire wrote:
Now, the second way. Does anybody have an idea, why don't Empires attack null sec capsuleer-run entities? These territories are damn rich, moon goo, roids, possibilities of securing the borders and huge areas to expand... Is it because pirate presence there is much bigger, or is it because CONCORD isn't allowing them to do so? Or is it just maybe Empires don't want to do it, because it would give them more problems than advantages?


A combination of the logistical cost of doing so, along with the heavy presence of NPC pirates factions. The Amarr Empire had explicit plans to colonize Providence and make it a new border region of the Empire, but the defeat at Vak-Iatoth and subsequent Minmatar rebellion demanded vast quantities of the Empire's resources be refocused on protecting other borders instead, putting those plans on indefinite hold. The Caldari currently have quietly managed facilities in Pure Blind, but no significant colonization plans. In general, inter-empire conflict has consumed resources that might be otherwise spent on expansion.

For an NPC nation to invade and colonize a nullsec region involves massive logistical difficulties that - for reasons of game design and unplanned power creep - we as players never encounter. We have no planetary civilization that demands constant protection and patrol; for game design purposes, NPC pirates ignore our PI colonies even if we never put a combat ship within a jump of them. Asteroid mining is easy beans for us because unfortunate stat power creep has rendered NPC pirates a joke to even the most basically fitted ships. Like PI colonies, our moon goo towers - and, indeed, every other kind of POS including supercap production and jump bridge ones - are utterly ignored by NPCs no matter the value. Game design has removed the need for us to freighter in vast quantities of food, personnel, spare parts, and other materials necessary to support new colonies. It has also granted us the ability to easily locate and target critical enemy capsuleer facilities without even needing scan probes - stations are identified as soon as we enter system, and finding a production POS is as easy as warping to a moon and taking a look inside the bubble.

None of this would be realistically accurate for a colonization effort. Moving in would require rooting out dozens if not hundreds of well-prepared pirate bases none of which are instantly identified at the beginning of a conflict. Simultaneously, constant patrols and defense for support facilities, colonized planets, massive convoys, and belt mining efforts would need to be provided; all of this would demand resources be diverted from other projects which are likely to have political backers of their own, and also the removal of fleets for protection from other regions.


tl;dr - Game design and power creep have left us in the unique position of needing far fewer resources to control a nullsec region, in large part because for us "controlling" only means meeting certain CONCORD-designated requirements rather than actively colonizing and protecting resources in a region.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#9 - 2014-09-02 17:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Maichin Civire wrote:
Now, the second way. Does anybody have an idea, why don't Empires attack null sec capsuleer-run entities? These territories are damn rich, moon goo, roids, possibilities of securing the borders and huge areas to expand... Is it because pirate presence there is much bigger, or is it because CONCORD isn't allowing them to do so? Or is it just maybe Empires don't want to do it, because it would give them more problems than advantages?


They can't, most of their ressources are bound in attacking the pirates also infesting NullSec. And really cleaning house would mean fighting pirates, who can easily hide and evade a mayor attack and hordes of capsuleers at the same time. And for what gain? Other pirates will replace the dead ones, other capsuleers will wander off to take the empty space after the capsuleer-alliances are destroyed.

The empires would have to wage a century long, costly war and somehow shoulder a massive colonization effort to be able to hold the conquered ground. The effort necessary to do all this would be ludicrous and would most likely fail in the end.

Of course, Sansha's cyber hordes and the eight NullSec-regions infested with sentient robots aren't even part of this equation.

I could see the empires trying a massive campaign for either of those, since they're a lot more dangerous then NullSec-capsuleers, who spend most of their time fighting among themselves. For this to happen, all four mayor empires would have to be at peace, however. As long as they aren't, I wager we won't see any mayor efforts directed against outside-powers.

Only the Jovians coming back, a final, lasting peace accord between the empires or some other really game-changing event would have to happen before open war between NullSec-coalitions and empires is even on the table as a faint, but distinct possibility.