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Agressive pricing
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Feanor Feuergeist
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-08-27 21:26:46 UTC
Greeting fellow capsulers.
So ive been trading since saturday and find far to much liking in it somehow and its going well.

Theres just one thing i dont get and thats raising buy orders like a rockstar on crack.
My only reaction to that is reraising because id rather cut the margin to NOTHING for both of us.
This is not a game of poker where everyone has a different hand you just cut yourself , so why?
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2 - 2014-08-27 22:34:16 UTC
Because I am a rockstar, and that's my buy order for crack.

Well, I've done this to annoy the other guy, because I'm annoyed by the other guy, and to force his price up to the point where he gives up and goes away, and then drop my price back down.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#3 - 2014-08-27 23:28:13 UTC
Every market rival you demoralize to the point they do not log on is a major strategic victory.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Bloody Slave
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-08-28 01:06:34 UTC
In this scenario, I just turn the "drug dealer" and help the rockstar with his addiction on crack.

Cool

If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD)
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#5 - 2014-08-28 02:20:59 UTC
I do this to people.

I'm not fighting for the product margain like you are.

When you figure out how I still made profit off it you'll still be wrong.
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-08-28 03:37:19 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
I do this to people.

I'm not fighting for the product margain like you are.

When you figure out how I still made profit off it you'll still be wrong.



yeah you are truly a market wizard
Caimi Nulang
The Blue Lobster Project
#7 - 2014-08-28 03:38:36 UTC
If you are cutting the margin to nothing. The people who are still raising the price probably already have items that they have bought at the lower price. They also have sell orders that they are taking profit on. If you do anything, you will only move the price of the item up overall and make the people with sell orders ready even more money as they adjust them to match the current market rate. Raise them too much and someone will start buying cheaper from another market, ship them to you and fill all of your buy orders and then list sell orders at your buy order price. Now you are losing money. Trading is marathon not a sprint. There are people in these markets that have been active for years. They know things about their markets that you might not even know how to ask about. Good luck.
GreenSeed
#8 - 2014-08-28 04:21:42 UTC
maybe, just maybe.. the person making the buy order wants the item for use and wont be flipping it. buying off a sell order with the overprice is garbage if you are a 'big time' buyer. so what you do is, you open eve central, look at jita prices and set a buy at that price. and you go to sleep...

knowing when not to fight a buy order and let the natural market flow kill it, is skill you should get to V ASAP if you want to get far as a station trader.
Cista2
EVE Museum
#9 - 2014-08-28 05:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
If you want to buy something, it saves time to be aggressive. Daytrading is not the only form of trading you know - some people just want the item within 5-24 hours.

When I buy something (as a station trader), both the buy order price and the sell order price are low compared to what I expect to sell the item for. I don't really care if I get the item at the buy order price or sell order price.

The second thing, and the one that nobody ever gets, is that a higher buy order price will induce sellers to sell to the buy order more often. Plus it will deter a portion of the 0,01 iskers from bidding over. Some of them realise that a trader like me has arrived and they will wait till my order is gone, which it will be during the same day - along with those that folllowed me up.

So be patient, there's nothing you can do about it anyway - except writing the same forum posts over and over Smile It can even work to your advantage, if the price drops down to the same level the day after.

My channel: "Signatures" -
Gor Yo
Taxes Shmuckses
#10 - 2014-08-28 10:35:32 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Because I am a rockstar, and that's my buy order for crack.

Well, I've done this to annoy the other guy, because I'm annoyed by the other guy, and to force his price up to the point where he gives up and goes away, and then drop my price back down.


I dont get this logic. How exactly are they "going away"? They arent cancelling their order, or dropping the price considerably. They just dont up their price after your last big change, but keep an eye on it since they have money invested in the item. At least that is what I do, and the moment you drop your price to the previous value, you will be undercut again.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#11 - 2014-08-28 10:46:52 UTC
Gor Yo wrote:
I dont get this logic. How exactly are they "going away"?
Ramping the price up encourages them not to bother fighting you. And not everyone is a 24/7 0.01ISKer.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Cista2
EVE Museum
#12 - 2014-08-28 10:53:13 UTC
Gor Yo wrote:
They arent cancelling their order, or dropping the price considerably. They just dont up their price after your last big change, but keep an eye on it since they have money invested in the item.
Exactly, so everybody's happy, both the daytrader and the speculative trader. The system works.

My channel: "Signatures" -
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#13 - 2014-08-28 17:29:56 UTC
Artificial inflation is the core to manipulating the market in EVE.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#14 - 2014-08-29 00:01:34 UTC
Cista2 wrote:
If you want to buy something, it saves time to be aggressive. Daytrading is not the only form of trading you know - some people just want the item within 5-24 hours.

When I buy something (as a station trader), both the buy order price and the sell order price are low compared to what I expect to sell the item for. I don't really care if I get the item at the buy order price or sell order price.

The second thing, and the one that nobody ever gets, is that a higher buy order price will induce sellers to sell to the buy order more often. Plus it will deter a portion of the 0,01 iskers from bidding over. Some of them realise that a trader like me has arrived and they will wait till my order is gone, which it will be during the same day - along with those that folllowed me up.

So be patient, there's nothing you can do about it anyway - except writing the same forum posts over and over Smile It can even work to your advantage, if the price drops down to the same level the day after.


Confirming I often do this.

Let's say I'm almost out of a datacore and intend to use 200 of them in the next few days. Let's say the Dodixie prices are 110k on sell orders and 90k on buy orders, and I want them in a specific station 5j away from Dodixie.

I could place a buy order at 91k, wait (and hope) for it to fill, then ship the goods to my invention hub. That's the cheap option.

Or I could buy from sell orders and ship the goods (or pay a useful idiot to ship them for me via courier contracts).

Or I could post a buy order at 112-113k at the station I want the goods at and get an intra-regional trader to do everything for me.

Or I could post a buy order at 100k at the desired station, and wait/hope for it to fill.

What I actually do in practice, is I will estimate the opportunity cost of not having those datacores when I need them, and I'll consider how likely the order is to fill under each of these scenarios. I'll also consider the time taken by couriers to deliver the goods. That informs my decision.


So if you see a buy order for 200 datacores in the hub at 100k, it may not be a trader at all, but an end user with a pressing but non-urgent requirement for the goods for personal use.


Of course this also happens with much larger orders than 22m worth of datacores. I recently had buy orders for billions worth of tech 2 components where, because time was of the essence, I was willing to significantly overpay. The opportunity cost of having my production lines idle when I had identified a *very* profitable short-term market to get into was higher than my trading losses incurred by overpaying.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#15 - 2014-08-29 15:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tinu Moorhsum
Feanor Feuergeist wrote:
Greeting fellow capsulers.
So ive been trading since saturday and find far to much liking in it somehow and its going well.

Theres just one thing i dont get and thats raising buy orders like a rockstar on crack.
My only reaction to that is reraising because id rather cut the margin to NOTHING for both of us.
This is not a game of poker where everyone has a different hand you just cut yourself , so why?


Well... The 0.01isk game is the short game. A lot of people see the market as a game of minutes or days. When arbitrage trading they’re afraid of losing that 10% margin by waiting too long to buy or sell because from looking at it on micro level they see the market fluctuating very quickly and sometimes wildly.

There is another game. When you start looking at the market in terms of seasons then it becomes a lot easier. Slower, but easier.

T-
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#16 - 2014-08-29 15:57:28 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Feanor Feuergeist wrote:
Greeting fellow capsulers.
So ive been trading since saturday and find far to much liking in it somehow and its going well.

Theres just one thing i dont get and thats raising buy orders like a rockstar on crack.
My only reaction to that is reraising because id rather cut the margin to NOTHING for both of us.
This is not a game of poker where everyone has a different hand you just cut yourself , so why?


Well... The 0.01isk game is the short game. A lot of people see the market as a game of minutes or days. When arbitrage trading they’re afraid of losing that 10% margin by waiting too long to buy or sell because from looking at it on micro level they see the market fluctuating very quickly and sometimes wildly.

There is another game. When you start looking at the market in terms of seasons then it becomes a lot easier. Slower, but easier.

T-


QFT.

Open a market chart, read price, set order where price is trending towards, profit from AFK.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Juneau Chokis
Heimatar Planetary Production Fund
#17 - 2014-08-31 04:33:04 UTC
You'll see that happen often if you update too aggressively.

An item that moves at 10 units a day but has buy orders updated every 10 minutes? I sure as hell am going to crush that margin to the point that I don't have to check the order every 10 minutes any longer. 1% profit on an item is better than 10% profit on 0 items. 0.01 ISKing is just idiotic at times.

Of course aggressively making margins tight also makes you susceptible to market fluctuations - in the end you could lose ISK if you're lazy on reselling and aren't able to get rid of the item fast enough before the sell price drops.

Another big thing to consider are corp/faction standings. While some item might look barely worth trading to you, it might be worth trading for someone that has 0.3% less broker fees than you.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#18 - 2014-09-01 02:17:39 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Gor Yo wrote:
I dont get this logic. How exactly are they "going away"?
Ramping the price up encourages them not to bother fighting you. And not everyone is a 24/7 0.01ISKer.


If you realize that some people in game have stocks that are equal to several months worth of trading in products, try to realize why they would care to go deep with a high buy order, the average price will just go up a little bit. Especially if you are buying all over EVE and just 1 hub is spiking up. Over time the trader with the multiple month stock can keep up the game as long as he / she wants (the profit is secure for several months). By that time, the trader stepping in will be long annoyed and will leave the market alone, since he believes no profit can be made.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

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