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The costs of PVP is too much for new players
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Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-08-27 21:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
You can fit a T1 Rifter with T1 meta modules for around 1mil. I've done it a few times myself. You can probably make 5mil/hr in a Venture mining in high-sec. That's at least 4 Rifters per hour you're producing by mining, many more if you invest in a barge. Or you could double your PVP as your income stream with FW but that obviously has its downsides.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-08-27 21:50:16 UTC
Join a blob corp that pays rent in nullsec and get the rewards with no risk. And when that gets boring go back to hi-sec and just keep using cheap t1 destroyers to blob kill anyone and call it content.
Torneach Structor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-08-27 21:59:05 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Join a blob corp that pays rent in nullsec and get the rewards with no risk. And when that gets boring go back to hi-sec and just keep using cheap t1 destroyers to blob kill anyone and call it content.

Looks like someone took a bath in Essence of Cynicism.
Adunh Slavy
#44 - 2014-08-27 21:59:17 UTC
Remove the skill point loss and close cost non-sense. The cost of ships and mods is fine.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#45 - 2014-08-27 21:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alternative Splicing
Pj Harvey wrote:
Things used to be a LOT cheaper in eve, but CCP have been artificially raising the the cost of things by messing with drop rates and build costs of ships. 4 years ago a frig was 120,000, a cruiser was between 2.5 and 3.5 mil and the tier one battleships were 55/60 mil.

CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon.


What was the ISK value of a PLEX 4 years ago? Have you actually run any math to show that PLEX buys you less total spaceship than it did 4 years ago? Your conspiracy theory wouldn't be as loopy if PLEX prices didn't rise along with everything else, creating a situation where you need to buy more to get the same amount of spaceships.

Potential ISK/hr rates have also gone up if you do the homework to optimize whatever it is you are doing. The real question remains, do you get as much spaceship per hour as you did 4 years ago? Conservatively, or worst case, you should be getting about 6 T2 fit frigates per hour, or 2 T2 fit cruisers, doing either L4s in hisec or null anoms with one character without excessive optimization.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2014-08-27 22:07:08 UTC
OP.

Eve PVP is easy to experience and affordable for any new pilot who chooses to give it a go. When a pilot does the tutorials they are given 4 frigates. If the pilot collects all the mission wreck loot from the tutorial missions, they will have enough modules to make a basic t1 pvp frigate: guns, warp disrupt, web, damage amplifiers. If the new pilot insures all 4 frigates and loses all 4 in low sec pvp they will have enough isk to buy 2 more.

As many have stated in this thread, the tutorial does not tell the new pilot that they have the tools to immediately shoot at others and NPC beginner corps are full of PVE orientated veterans who spout large amounts of misinformation.

The holographic pvp mission idea that the cute newbie in this thread raised has some merit. I reckon more simply one of the tutorial missions should be: head to any low sec system return with a lossmail to complete mission. Return with a killmail to recieve a bonus. Would tie in nicely with how to use map tutorial.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#47 - 2014-08-27 22:47:00 UTC
Cost of PvP is not an issue. It never was. The only time new players complain about loss is when they thought they were running PvE content and they were destroyed in PvP. This is because they couldn't afford to lose their money maker and had no plans to.

After a month pretty much every player in EVE can afford to PvP at a basic level. The question they ask most often is why? You don't learn anything from loss. All you need to do is look at the mail and it's a no brainer why they lost. 99% of all killmails in EVE have scroll requirements to see all the people shooting at you. The remaining 1% have a falcon on the mail. We all know why we lose.

Even if new people do engage in PvP, they only do it a few times because it's as much a grind as the level 1 mission they were doing on day 1. Jump through the gate, go boom. How to win? Blob up.
Vyl Vit
#48 - 2014-08-27 23:01:06 UTC
Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.)

PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2014-08-27 23:16:50 UTC
Otuk Andven wrote:
an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.


WTF? That's what I pay for a full T2/Meta 4 PvP setup, no noob has the skills for T2 stuff and certainly will be smart enough to not buy expensive stuff, if it is all T1/Low Meta, then you're looking at only about 2mil/Ship which you can make in 15 minutes mining in a procurer gathering Veldspar.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth
Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2014-08-27 23:19:20 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Cost of PvP is not an issue. It never was. The only time new players complain about loss is when they thought they were running PvE content and they were destroyed in PvP. This is because they couldn't afford to lose their money maker and had no plans to.

After a month pretty much every player in EVE can afford to PvP at a basic level. The question they ask most often is why? You don't learn anything from loss. All you need to do is look at the mail and it's a no brainer why they lost. 99% of all killmails in EVE have scroll requirements to see all the people shooting at you. The remaining 1% have a falcon on the mail. We all know why we lose.

Even if new people do engage in PvP, they only do it a few times because it's as much a grind as the level 1 mission they were doing on day 1. Jump through the gate, go boom. How to win? Blob up.


-------------------/\

Sooooo not true, I have won some fights and lost many fights where it was 1v1, 1v2, and occasionally 1v3. Yes you can lose a lot, but you have to know what the hell you're doing to have a chance at winning.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth
Grim Hood
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-08-27 23:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Grim Hood
Torneach Structor wrote:
Otuk Andven wrote:
an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK


Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M?

Like, seriously.

Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.


Um, I am a month old and my frigs cost between 6-10 million each. Proof and Proof

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
One word : Derptron

Under 2.5M isk, lethal in force.


Yeah great. Notice the "All Level V"? You need perfect fitting skills and it still does crappy dps.

Look, new players want to kick ass too. Flying around in a s#!t fit frigate, getting annihilated constantly, is not fun. People like to win. If you want to be successful you have to spend ISK.

You grind a crap load of missions. Buy a ship. Go to lowsec and die in a heartbeat. Now you have to grind more missions to get blown up again. It can be very discouraging.

PVP as a new player is quite difficult without donations from other players or buying PLEX, and not many new players are willing to dump another $20 in to a game they may not even want to play in a week.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#52 - 2014-08-27 23:28:42 UTC
Netan MalDoran wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Cost of PvP is not an issue. It never was. The only time new players complain about loss is when they thought they were running PvE content and they were destroyed in PvP. This is because they couldn't afford to lose their money maker and had no plans to.

After a month pretty much every player in EVE can afford to PvP at a basic level. The question they ask most often is why? You don't learn anything from loss. All you need to do is look at the mail and it's a no brainer why they lost. 99% of all killmails in EVE have scroll requirements to see all the people shooting at you. The remaining 1% have a falcon on the mail. We all know why we lose.

Even if new people do engage in PvP, they only do it a few times because it's as much a grind as the level 1 mission they were doing on day 1. Jump through the gate, go boom. How to win? Blob up.


-------------------/\

Sooooo not true, I have won some fights and lost many fights where it was 1v1, 1v2, and occasionally 1v3. Yes you can lose a lot, but you have to know what the hell you're doing to have a chance at winning.


Soooo not true.

You don't have to know what you are doing to win at PvP. All you need to do is play for longer and skill and fit better. I've taken on 6 people and walked away because they couldn't come close to breaking my tank with their T1 fits.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#53 - 2014-08-27 23:30:20 UTC
I don't know if anyone has mentioned RvB, but they used to keep a stockpile of ships for new members to learn PvP with.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-08-27 23:42:11 UTC
Otuk Andven wrote:
One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?



Just checked my buy orders. Just for Gallente in the past week I picked up 30 or 40 Navitas @ 85,000 ISK each (less than 4 mill for 40 frigates) and about the same number of Atrons @ 125,000 and tristans @ 155,000.

I actually end up with too many T1 frigates a lot of the time. Just last week I donated 300 Ventures to the Angel Project because they were not worth selling.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#55 - 2014-08-27 23:57:40 UTC
Cost of PVP gives you something to work for. Gives you motivation to squint yer eyes and try out all kinds of schemes to make isk, work the angles, make yourself smarter and happier.
Utsukushi Shi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-08-28 00:13:28 UTC
I fly a Kestral with t2 rockets/BCU/DC and the mids cheap meta. I have just shy of 1000 kills atm, almost all with said Kestral. To be fair most are small gang kills but there are some solo ones in there.

The ship fitted is about 4mill.

The ghetto version (all t1) is probably 2mill.

Any ship I lose on a corp roam is reimbursed.

I made about 100k lp just yesterday dplexing in between fights in a couple hours. Also looted maybe 20mil or so in mods and drones.

Tell these supposed newbs to come talk to me and I'll get them pvping :)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-08-28 00:25:16 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.)

PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be.



A large ammoun t of these are alts running misisosn to make isk for PVP. THese are nto PVErs. No one call those peopel PVErs. They are PVPers doign PVE to pay their PVP.

They are playign the game as was intended. No one is agaisnt people doign PVE, people are against people just pretendign pvp doe snto exist

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2014-08-28 00:58:46 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.)
Funnily enough, PvP is by far the most enjoyed activity in the game — something like ¾ of the players like PvP.

Quote:
PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be.
Actually, PvP is an ISK faucet. Always has been, and there's no reason why that will ever change.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#59 - 2014-08-28 01:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Tippia wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.)
Funnily enough, PvP is by far the most enjoyed activity in the game — something like ¾ of the players like PvP.

Quote:
PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be.
Actually, PvP is an ISK faucet. Always has been, and there's no reason why that will ever change.

My ... two pvp characters are by far outnumbered by my nullsec industry characters that just endlessly make fuelblocks, manage my pos or both

No wait, hmm let's count... say three pvp characters against like 9 or so of my various miner/industry alts.


At least unlike before, now my industry alts are actually in the alliance, instead of, you know, "end game NPC corp alt industry alts"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
GreenSeed
#60 - 2014-08-28 01:13:50 UTC
pvp is cheap in terms of effort for new people, but the logistics of pvp can get cumbersome. i can sell the stuff i make, buy new materials, ship it back to the manufacturing systems and use any isk left to randomly buy a bunch of hulls. then ship them to my pvp main, where i just log in, pick a hull i feel like flying and fit it. i have well over 20b worth of assorted fittings, way more than what i can use/lose.

should i lose something, i take the pod express, pick another hull and undock again.

at this point i can't fly (lose) enough to break my bank, sometimes i end up with so much **** i end up reselling it at a loss just to satisfy my OCD... no one likes uneven stacks of t2 modules, we all know that.

the point is, a newbie loses a ship, takes the express home and has to fly to a hub, re buy stuff, only to fly another 10 minutes just so he can get blapped on a lowsec entry gate... not fun.

i think ships are easy enough to train into, and easy enough to afford. the problem is having them readily available for use.

silly things like being unable to place a fitted ship on a cargo hold, is really unnecessary... why have that limitation when you can easily avoid it by making a courier contract with an alt. -.-' also, frigates are too big to move on T1 haulers, even repackaged.

and don't get me started on medical clones/Jump clones ...