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Minmatar Combat Pilot: Where to next?

Author
Orchid Kell
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-08-19 22:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Orchid Kell
Hey all,

First if you are having questions like I was about weapon choice I found a lot of good info in this post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168141

That post is a bit dated and I have a question on training in the current PvP meta..

My main is a 13.5m SP matari pilot. I've got 1.9m SP in Gunnery, Light/Med Projectiles only; 1.4m in Drones, up to Medium; 700k in Missiles. I think I like missiles but it would take twice as long as hybrids or energy turrets. I have good core fitting skills so cap use isn't a problem. My armor fitting is adequate and my shield is better.


I only want to focus on another weapon system and faction for now. What would you recommend as the next step here? I'm mostly interested in smaller scale lowsec PvP with AF, HAC, inty, cov ops and EWAR.


Thanks!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2 - 2014-08-20 01:28:16 UTC
I've had fun in jaguar and wolf on minmatar side for AF. Fairly easy to get in to them. Though, minmatar stuff takes good piloting, and rely on the speed to make most of their fits work. Though, arty scram/kite jag is really good with good piloting. wolf lacks range control, so its only really good against bigger/slower ships.

matari HAC's are kind of sketchy at the moment, vagabond is ok, its fun to solo in with a good speed fit, otherwise is squishy when caught. Muninn is mostly worthless. Scythe FI is a decent cruiser, i would maybe recommend at least training into light missiles, as an rlml scyfi is pretty potent if you just want to kill some frigates. Plenty fast as well.

i mainly fly thrasher/breacher/vagabond/scyfi/jag/typhoon and tempest FI, training into CS now, as the slep and claymore are awesome (long train time though). As a note, make sure your fitting skills are good, minmatar ships are tight a majority of the time on PG/CPU.
Orchid Kell
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-20 22:33:59 UTC
Thanks for the reply. I just finished Min Cruiser V and am training energy grid upgrades V. I like fast ships so the Vagabond should be fun. My fitting skills are mostly capped, having 2.3 million SP in engineering.

I don't think I want to skill battleships yet I know it'd be fast training to a Mael or TFI. I was recommended a Gila or Ishtar for Anoms and small gang. Without sentries or heavy drones, the Gila will skill faster and unlock T1 hulls plus Morduu's and Angel Cartel ships. So I think I'll skill for Gila!
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#4 - 2014-08-21 11:22:37 UTC
Orchid Kell wrote:
Hey all,

First if you are having questions like I was about weapon choice I found a lot of good info in this post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168141

That post is a bit dated and I have a question on training in the current PvP meta..

My main is a 13.5m SP matari pilot. I've got 1.9m SP in Gunnery, Light/Med Projectiles only; 1.4m in Drones, up to Medium; 700k in Missiles. I think I like missiles but it would take twice as long as hybrids or energy turrets. I have good core fitting skills so cap use isn't a problem. My armor fitting is adequate and my shield is better.


I only want to focus on another weapon system and faction for now. What would you recommend as the next step here? I'm mostly interested in smaller scale lowsec PvP with AF, HAC, inty, cov ops and EWAR.


Thanks!


Pulse lasers are the best turrets in game, bar none. However currently the best weapon system in the game are drone boats. Worm, gila, Vexor navy, Vexor, Ishtar- are all extremely strong ships.

If you are set on turrets, then I would suggest the following ships:

Omen navy issue
Zealot (Shield fit)
Aug Navy
Phantasm

Those 4 ships are all very strong, and powerful solo / small gang choices.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#5 - 2014-08-21 11:35:06 UTC
Learn to fly a kiting Stabber - basically the core of the minmatar range-tanking doctrine.

Common themes from successful minmatar ships: Passive shield fits, lots of Damage mods, good speed, Barrage ammo or Arty's. fighting @~20km
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#6 - 2014-08-21 16:57:40 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Learn to fly a kiting Stabber - basically the core of the minmatar range-tanking doctrine.

Common themes from successful minmatar ships: Passive shield fits, lots of Damage mods, good speed, Barrage ammo or Arty's. fighting @~20km


Stabber is really bad. Infact all of the stabber variations, Vaga included are bad at kiting. Cynbal is meh?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#7 - 2014-08-21 17:56:56 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Learn to fly a kiting Stabber - basically the core of the minmatar range-tanking doctrine.

Common themes from successful minmatar ships: Passive shield fits, lots of Damage mods, good speed, Barrage ammo or Arty's. fighting @~20km


Stabber is really bad. Infact all of the stabber variations, Vaga included are bad at kiting. Cynbal is meh?


I dont have issues kiting in my vagabond. The biggest issue with vaga is the amount of dps on target at point range, which is more a projectile problem. Cynabal is only like 100m/s faster, but does give option of defensive web.

A general issue i run into is everyone with links. Deimos going 3.5k/s is a problem. But i still have fun and get kills.
Xoduse
Cryogenic Consultancy
Azure Citizen
#8 - 2014-08-23 19:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Xoduse
Orchid Kell wrote:
Hey all,


My main is a 13.5m SP matari pilot. I've got 1.9m SP in Gunnery, Light/Med Projectiles only; 1.4m in Drones, up to Medium; 700k in Missiles. I think I like missiles but it would take twice as long as hybrids or energy turrets. I have good core fitting skills so cap use isn't a problem. My armor fitting is adequate and my shield is better.



Thanks!


I would suggest focusing on getting all gunnery support skills to 5 before switching to another weapons system. Trajectory analysis and Motion Prediction maxed out is important for any race but imperative to Matari because almost all engagements occur in fall off and usually at decent velocities which causes you to lose DPS to tracking problems. Also, once you switch to hybrids or energy turrets you will have to invest in Spaceship Command skills to make those ships shine which is SP that would be more efficiently spent training support skills such as the ones listed above. Rapid firing, Surgical Strike, and Sharpshooter (more important for artillery than autos) to 5 will make the most of the projectile system you're currently specialized in and you can completely overlook controlled bursts currently. If you go hybrid or energy then you must train controlled bursts at least to 4 which is even MORE time you could have spent building a good gunnery base.

I say this as someone who started out purely Gallente with hybrids and drones. I trained up to T2 medium hybrids with level 4 gunnery support skills and then I took them all to 5 (except Surgical strike because its rank 5) before moving on to large hybrid turrets. After training Large blaster and rail spec to 4, then I decided to start dipping into T2 projectiles and eventually energy weapons. Having a solid base in gunnery will help you immensely in the transition and make it an overall more enjoyable experience with the projectiles you're using currently, and the new weapon system you decide to pick up. 1.9m in Gunnery is not much, I've got more SP in gunnery than your entire character. I'm not boasting simply putting into perspective how much room there is for improvement.

My advice is to answer these questions and and act appropriately:

1) Will I be using projectiles more than my new weapon system? If not then be patient, work on the support skills to make the most of what you have.

2) What ship class(es) will I be using primarily? Take the top two to level 5 in spaceship command, it will give you the edge that just might save your ass.

This will allow you to be solid at one thing instead of "ok" at several. I'd put some time into armour skills since Gallente and Amarr both use them and you'll more than likely be heading that direction when you decide you're ready. Hope this helps.

Side note: For those saying the vagabond is bad at kiting must not fly it much because after several nerfs its still one of the fastest, most agile cruisers in the game especially with 2 nanofibers. Also, there is absolutely no reason to passive tank it with the new shield boost bonus which comes to life quite nicely with an ancillary shield booster. The dps however could use some love, it is quite anemic deep in fall off.
Orchid Kell
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-08-26 07:32:51 UTC
Xoduse wrote:

I would suggest focusing on getting all gunnery support skills to 5 before switching to another weapons system. Trajectory analysis and Motion Prediction maxed out is important for any race but imperative to Matari because almost all engagements occur in fall off and usually at decent velocities which causes you to lose DPS to tracking problems. Also, once you switch to hybrids or energy turrets you will have to invest in Spaceship Command skills to make those ships shine which is SP that would be more efficiently spent training support skills such as the ones listed above. Rapid firing, Surgical Strike, and Sharpshooter (more important for artillery than autos) to 5 will make the most of the projectile system you're currently specialized in and you can completely overlook controlled bursts currently. If you go hybrid or energy then you must train controlled bursts at least to 4 which is even MORE time you could have spent building a good gunnery base.


The skills mentioned above all are IV besides controlled bursts at 0 and a III surgical strike. I only use small and medium projectiles up to T2. You bring up good points. I thought I could move on to another weapon system to one of the better flavor of the month ships, like drone boats. I also really like missiles but I have the least SP in them so was eager to start :/

It seems to me I've gotten to "good enough" levels for casual fleet ops that I could build up another weapon system and be more versatile, but apparently I need 2 more months of gunnery training to be "good enough"?

Quote:

My advice is to answer these questions and and act appropriately:

1) Will I be using projectiles more than my new weapon system? If not then be patient, work on the support skills to make the most of what you have.


Yes.. ok

Quote:

2) What ship class(es) will I be using primarily? Take the top two to level 5 in spaceship command, it will give you the edge that just might save your ass.


I have min frig and cruiser V. Are you suggesting this for T2 ship skills?

Quote:
This will allow you to be solid at one thing instead of "ok" at several. I'd put some time into armour skills since Gallente and Amarr both use them and you'll more than likely be heading that direction when you decide you're ready. Hope this helps.


I can appreciate min/maxing all the time for efficiency, but this character evolved into a do a bit of everthing.. I can use transport ships and some trade skills, as well as some scanning. So it's not essential for me to cap out everything a chunk at a time, even if it's more efficient. You convinced me to delay going into another weapon system, though. I am training armor skills right now to T2 hardeners.

Are you suggesting Amarr/Gallente > Caldari? SP-wise they are cheaper, because of my gunnery and higher drones over missile SP.
Jacob Stov
#10 - 2014-08-26 09:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacob Stov
In the end it comes down to what you want. Gallente is the obvious choice for x-training right now. If you built up your projectile skills a bit more you can get away with fitting some of the drone boats with projectiles.
This way you can satisfy your desire to fly something new and remain focused on getting your Matar skills up to level. If you are just a number in a blob it may make no difference, but even then you may want to be on top of killmails sometimes.

My advice would be to focus on your gunnery support skills, get medium and small weapon specs to 4 and mix in some Gallente ship and drone skills every now and then. If your favourite ride is a T2 ship, get the skill to 5 as well.

It is imho immensily satisfying to have your favourite ship performing close to it's optimum.

Later you can add Caldari and Amarr to the mix. Amarr require perfect engineering skills, therefore I would put them at the end of my to do list.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#11 - 2014-08-26 18:55:55 UTC
You are making wise decision to train up your support skills more before cross-training (especially after I noticed that you have yet to train for T2 hardeners!). Once you get around to it though, I would suggest cross-training to Gallente.

Even not considering their current FOTM status, they offer very different play style from Minmatar kiting tradition (although at the moment Gallente can kite pretty good too), and in-your-face brawling never gets old. Also having Gallente-Minmatar cross trained offers both Serpentis AND Angel ships, whereas cross training into any other faction will only open up one pirate faction (cross training into Caldari will give you no pirate toys to play with at all).

Having said that though, there are so many viable fits and you can always come back to your Minmatar roots after cross training, but just stronger. For example, investing into missile skills will open up Cyclone, Claymore and Typhoon, so cross training into Caldari will not be a total waste either.

At the end of the day, if you are in this game for long term then whatever you train now will prove to be of value in future. Unless you have a very specific focus you want to take, don't worry too much about maxing out on one thing. Just make sure your support skills are decent (i.e. maybe not maxed but at least you can use all T2 mods) and jump into whatever you want to try out. Eventually you will find a ship you like so much that you want max skills for it.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#12 - 2014-08-26 20:38:00 UTC
you are still in time to train for blaster and gallente ships.
minmatar ships keep getting nerfed at every rebalance pass, and right now they are in a really sad position.
it pains me to say that since i always loved minmatar ships but right now as someone who can fly all subcap ships minmatar its pretty much always my last choice and i always play in very small gang/solo
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-08-27 15:12:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
you have 2 main choices for cross/further training

gallente & hybrids -- Dramiel & Daredevil, AF
Amarr & lazors -- Cruor, AF

which means gallente gives a bit more flexibility in ship choices


off hand I think gallente now gives the most choices when looking at faction hulls and cross training, where it used to be minmatar