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How do Cloaking Devices work against the different targeting systems?
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Logan Joriksa
Shockwave Unlimited
RAZOR Alliance
#1 - 2014-08-18 12:53:58 UTC
Consider the targeting systems and the cloaking devices commonly used in New Eden.

I imagine against Amarr radar systems, ships can be made "invisible" fairly easy using the physics of stealth. This is known to us currently in the 21st Century. However, how do make a blocky ship like the Venture or perhaps more relevantly, the Prospect invisible to radar on command? Surprise stealth plates fold out? Roll

Against Minmatar ladar systems, I can imagine a bending of light around the ship with angled mirrors or cameras or something (CCP Handwavium appreciated) that renders the ship "invisible" to these sensors on command.

For Gallente Magnetometric systems, a possibility of special nanites that cover the ship with a non magnetic substance (handwavium) on command, thus evading these type of sensors.

However, I can't work out how cloaking devices work against Caldari Gravimetric systems.

Gravimetry - Defined as the measurement of the strength of a gravitational field.

Even the mass of a frigate must be significant enough to generate a gravity field, let alone Titans whose gravity is significant enough to affect tidal forces on planets like Goral.

When a cloaking device is active on a ship how does it cause that gravitational field from being undetectable? Especially to sensors whose namesake implies they detect gravitational fields?
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2014-08-18 13:13:30 UTC
Logan Joriksa wrote:
Consider the targeting systems and the cloaking devices commonly used in New Eden.

I imagine against Amarr radar systems, ships can be made "invisible" fairly easy using the physics of stealth. This is known to us currently in the 21st Century. However, how do make a blocky ship like the Venture or perhaps more relevantly, the Prospect invisible to radar on command? Surprise stealth plates fold out? Roll


The F-117 is a distinct pointer in that stealth aircraft don't have to be smooth curves for it to work. Its all based on the materials used so that you can minimise your return signal as much as possible.


Logan Joriksa wrote:
Against Minmatar ladar systems, I can imagine a bending of light around the ship with angled mirrors or cameras or something (CCP Handwavium appreciated) that renders the ship "invisible" to these sensors on command.


Physical cloaking a vessel in that manner is already possible (but not an any applicable scale) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial_cloaking


Logan Joriksa wrote:
For Gallente Magnetometric systems, a possibility of special nanites that cover the ship with a non magnetic substance (handwavium) on command, thus evading these type of sensors.


Or just make the skin of the vessel out of non magnetic components shut off the magnetic systems in lieu of more traditional connections


Logan Joriksa wrote:
Gravimetry - Defined as the measurement of the strength of a gravitational field.

Even the mass of a frigate must be significant enough to generate a gravity field, let alone Titans whose gravity is significant enough to affect tidal forces on planets like Goral.

When a cloaking device is active on a ship how does it cause that gravitational field from being undetectable? Especially to sensors whose namesake implies they detect gravitational fields?


Gravimetric cloaking would more than likely work by interfering with the physical location of the ship, possibly pushing it in a layer of subspace (much like warping does) but at a more localised level - using enough energy to push you under the surface of real space into the depths below.


"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#3 - 2014-08-18 19:03:19 UTC
To my knowledge there is no canon explanation for cloaking devices.

I think Arline is on to something with the idea that the cloak "shifts" you out in a similar fashion to a warp bubble, though.
darkezero
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#4 - 2014-08-20 02:19:38 UTC
In the lower end cloaking devices, the description notes that two cloaking devices being fitted to a ship will negate their use due to "unsychronized light deflection" causing interference.

The covert ops model, however, mentions a spatial distortion field. If the non covert ops cloaking devices is to work against gravimetric sensors however, it a spatial distortion field would be required as well, just not mentioned. It could be that the spatial distortion field found on non covert ops cloaks is more stable, requring less processing power. from the covert ops cloak description: "A very specialized piece of technology, the covert ops cloak is designed for use in tandem with specific covert ops vessels. Although it could theoretically work on other ships, its spatial distortion field is so unstable that trying to compensate for its fluctuations will overwhelm non-specialized computing hardware." (emphasis mine)

Based on this, i'd say its a spatial distortion field more than just light deflection.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#5 - 2014-08-20 10:09:47 UTC
Logan Joriksa wrote:
Consider the targeting systems and the cloaking devices commonly used in New Eden.

I imagine against Amarr radar systems, ships can be made "invisible" fairly easy using the physics of stealth. This is known to us currently in the 21st Century. However, how do make a blocky ship like the Venture or perhaps more relevantly, the Prospect invisible to radar on command? Surprise stealth plates fold out? Roll

Against Minmatar ladar systems, I can imagine a bending of light around the ship with angled mirrors or cameras or something (CCP Handwavium appreciated) that renders the ship "invisible" to these sensors on command.

For Gallente Magnetometric systems, a possibility of special nanites that cover the ship with a non magnetic substance (handwavium) on command, thus evading these type of sensors.

However, I can't work out how cloaking devices work against Caldari Gravimetric systems.

Gravimetry - Defined as the measurement of the strength of a gravitational field.

Even the mass of a frigate must be significant enough to generate a gravity field, let alone Titans whose gravity is significant enough to affect tidal forces on planets like Goral.

When a cloaking device is active on a ship how does it cause that gravitational field from being undetectable? Especially to sensors whose namesake implies they detect gravitational fields?


Amarr and Gallente systems would be blocked the same way, since Radar depends on electromagnetic Energy and works on the same principle like magnetometric systems. (Both systems still work differently, of course. They just use the same basic elemental force.)

Minmatar-systems are automatically blocked by the light-bending which is necessary for the cloak since it's also hiding the ship optically.

And obviously even though the Caldari use primarily gravimetric systems, every ship with a warp drive should have some kind of navigational system to allow them to find and measure gravity. I see a lot of expensive accidents happen otherwise. So of course a cloak spreads out and stretches the gravitational anomalies produced by all those high-tech gadgets working in a modern spaceship (and its inherent, often logically quite weak gravitic field -not every ship is a supercapital) to make it blend in with other gravitic fields in environment. Like planets, stars, moons the random fluctuations of space-time. Stuff like that.

The reason cloaks stop working if you get too close is coupled with this: If you get near a cloaked ship, you start essentially crossing all those weird energy fields the cloak has spread around the cloaked ship to interfere with sensors (optical and otherwise). Obviously, if you're suddenly inside the cloak-field, you can now see and lock the ship.

Also of course, a large object with its own multitude of energy fields suddenly colliding with the cloaking fields from the outside makes them collapse, or prevents the cloak from being activated in the first place.

See, cloaks are easy.
darkezero
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#6 - 2014-08-23 02:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: darkezero
Owen Levanth wrote:

When a cloaking device is active on a ship how does it cause that gravitational field from being undetectable? Especially to sensors whose namesake implies they detect gravitational fields?

Amarr and Gallente systems would be blocked the same way, since Radar depends on electromagnetic Energy and works on the same principle like magnetometric systems. (Both systems still work differently, of course. They just use the same basic elemental force.)

Minmatar-systems are automatically blocked by the light-bending which is necessary for the cloak since it's also hiding the ship optically.

And obviously even though the Caldari use primarily gravimetric systems, every ship with a warp drive should have some kind of navigational system to allow them to find and measure gravity. I see a lot of expensive accidents happen otherwise. So of course a cloak spreads out and stretches the gravitational anomalies produced by all those high-tech gadgets working in a modern spaceship (and its inherent, often logically quite weak gravitic field -not every ship is a supercapital) to make it blend in with other gravitic fields in environment. Like planets, stars, moons the random fluctuations of space-time. Stuff like that.


So, I think you're getting your sensor types mixed up here. Magnetometric (Gallente) is the measuring of magnetic fields, and does not use the electromagnetic spectrum for sensory.

Radar (Amarr) and Ladar (Minmatar) use the Electromagnetic spectrum, which is light of varying wavelengths and energies, RADAR (RAdio Detection And Ranging) using the radio portion of the spectrum , and LADAR (LAser Detection And Ranging) using the spectrum at or around the visible light portion (Infrared, visible, and ultraviolet).

As for Gravimetric, I'd imagine it uses a different and more precise method than the warp drive, which use gravity capacitors to determine where to warp in relation to objects of significant enough mass (celestial bodies), though artificial gravity wells planted on stations and can simulate planetary bodies for the warp drive to lock on to. See section 5 for warp drive gravity capacitor explanation.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#7 - 2014-08-23 15:42:18 UTC
darkezero wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:

When a cloaking device is active on a ship how does it cause that gravitational field from being undetectable? Especially to sensors whose namesake implies they detect gravitational fields?

Amarr and Gallente systems would be blocked the same way, since Radar depends on electromagnetic Energy and works on the same principle like magnetometric systems. (Both systems still work differently, of course. They just use the same basic elemental force.)

Minmatar-systems are automatically blocked by the light-bending which is necessary for the cloak since it's also hiding the ship optically.

And obviously even though the Caldari use primarily gravimetric systems, every ship with a warp drive should have some kind of navigational system to allow them to find and measure gravity. I see a lot of expensive accidents happen otherwise. So of course a cloak spreads out and stretches the gravitational anomalies produced by all those high-tech gadgets working in a modern spaceship (and its inherent, often logically quite weak gravitic field -not every ship is a supercapital) to make it blend in with other gravitic fields in environment. Like planets, stars, moons the random fluctuations of space-time. Stuff like that.


So, I think you're getting your sensor types mixed up here. Magnetometric (Gallente) is the measuring of magnetic fields, and does not use the electromagnetic spectrum for sensory.

Radar (Amarr) and Ladar (Minmatar) use the Electromagnetic spectrum, which is light of varying wavelengths and energies, RADAR (RAdio Detection And Ranging) using the radio portion of the spectrum , and LADAR (LAser Detection And Ranging) using the spectrum at or around the visible light portion (Infrared, visible, and ultraviolet).

As for Gravimetric, I'd imagine it uses a different and more precise method than the warp drive, which use gravity capacitors to determine where to warp in relation to objects of significant enough mass (celestial bodies), though artificial gravity wells planted on stations and can simulate planetary bodies for the warp drive to lock on to. See section 5 for warp drive gravity capacitor explanation.


No, I just forgot that technically, all three systems depend on the electromagnetic power, just in different ways. So something which is capable of bending light would most likely be also capable of bending the part of the spectrum affecting radar. Manipulating magnetic fields is practically easy compared to that. Also magnetic fields all depend on the electromagnetic power, not only electromagnetic fields. Those make it just obvious.

I think your confusion here stems from me talking about the elementary principles behind the systems and you talking about the concrete ways they use those principles. The latter sees indeed a difference between the measuring of magnetic fields and detecting a ship by detecting electromagnetic waves reflected by a body. But both still have their foundation in the electromagnetic power, one of the four fundamental powers.

Caldari-systems are the only outliers here, but again: Practically every system uses or emitts some kind of gravitic distortion in a FTL-capable ship, so it obviously made sense to them to build systems capable of detecting those.
Armagast Sin Truth
Blackstone and Fairfield Transuniversal
Sentinels of Sukanan Alliance
#8 - 2014-08-26 20:46:46 UTC
Logan Joriksa wrote:
Even the mass of a frigate must be significant enough to generate a gravity field, let alone Titans whose gravity is significant enough to affect tidal forces on planets like Goral.

When a cloaking device is active on a ship how does it cause that gravitational field from being undetectable? Especially to sensors whose namesake implies they detect gravitational fields?



My Two Cents on Gravimetric cloaking: As a natural consequence of space flight and the need to protect the pilot (The reason we live in Capsules) is control of Inertia. To do so it would be required to lower the mass of everything in a ship so that acceleration has less of an effect on each particle of the ship. In short by ramping that up to max (probably requiring tech not found on normal ships) the mass - and therefor - the gravitational effects of a ship are reduced drastically to the point that gravimetric sensors have a very difficult time sensing the ship. Except at close ranges of course.

A devils advocate might say that this would allow ships in cloak to travel even faster than normal. True - however - the need to keep the relationship of each particle to it's neighbor (so that u don't vanish in a puff of mutual annihilation) requires care and massive calculation to control the inertial field patterns and therefore sudden changes caused by fast acceleration through external gravitational fields are to be avoided. hence the lose of speed when a cloak is activated.