These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Hyperion] Burner Missions

First post
Author
Per Ole
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#221 - 2014-08-26 18:52:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Per Ole
I gotta say, the pay for these missions are absolute crap... 600k isk (including time reward that is incredibly short) and around 1400 lp for the sansha one? This is in 0.0 btw.

Went in with a friend, me in an Astero and friend in an Ishkur, both active tanked to survive EM/thermal (npc was shooting lasers). He survived at 2% structure, npc was going 600m/s even with 3 webs on him, could track drones extremly easy and 2-shot them (astero drones....) and just all around rediculeous... And yet, the rewards are so ****, even when you risk a ship this expensive...

So we just agreed that from now on, we're just skipping these missions. EVE is supposed to be about risk/reward, and in this case it seems that the devs extremly misjudged the amount of risk involved, and the fact that this is a lvl 4 mission.

At least make it pay like a normal lvl 4, you only get them at random intervals so even if you "crack the code" you can't farm them.
CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#222 - 2014-08-26 18:58:17 UTC
Per Ole wrote:
I gotta say, the pay for these missions are absolute crap... 600k isk (including time reward that is incredibly short) and around 1400 lp for the sansha one? This is in 0.0 btw.

Went in with a friend, me in an Astero and friend in an Ishkur, both active tanked to survive EM/thermal (npc was shooting lasers). He survived at 2% structure, npc was going 600m/s even with 3 webs on him, could track drones extremly easy and 2-shot them (astero drones....) and just all around rediculeous... And yet, the rewards are so ****, even when you risk a ship this expensive...

So we just agreed that from now on, we're just skipping these missions. EVE is supposed to be about risk/reward, and in this case it seems that the devs extremly misjudged the amount of risk involved, and the fact that this is a lvl 4 mission.

At least make it pay like a normal lvl 4, you only get them at random intervals so even if you "crack the code" you can't farm them.
Don't despair! The missions rewards will get better! You can quote me on it :)

CCP Lebowski wrote:
You should find that once the rewards settle it will definitely be a better isk per hour than a normal level

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

Per Ole
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-08-26 19:01:03 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Don't despair! The missions rewards will get better! You can quote me on it :)

CCP Lebowski wrote:
You should find that once the rewards settle it will definitely be a better isk per hour than a normal level


By "better", do you mean that they'll actually be worth doing, or will they just pay something like double what they do now?
Jori McKie
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#224 - 2014-08-26 19:13:34 UTC
Some ship and fitting advice can be found here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4950244#post4950244

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#225 - 2014-08-26 21:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Archetype 66
Archetype 66 wrote:
Fozzie, it seems there is a bug now with the blood raider. He is no longer repairing his armor as soon as you leave the grid. So if he destroys you and if you go back, he will begin the fight with less armor.

Edit : same for all Burners. is it by design ?

Also solo, no link, no implant, no faction :

Guristas X (Daredevil/Enyo)
Blood Raider X (Wolf)
Serpentis X (Hawk)
Sansha
Angel X (Vengeance)
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#226 - 2014-08-26 23:10:56 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Don't despair! The missions rewards will get better! You can quote me on it :)

CCP Lebowski wrote:
You should find that once the rewards settle it will definitely be a better isk per hour than a normal level


Its probably asking for trade secrets, but how the heck do you have a system where the rewards start out bad but get better as more of the missions are done, but then stop getting better at some unspecified point?

Why would this even exist? How does that even benefit anyone?

The dev blog says NOTHING about this, to remind you. No mention whatsoever of the fact the mission rewards will be 'dynamic'.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#227 - 2014-08-27 00:49:14 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Don't despair! The missions rewards will get better! You can quote me on it :)

CCP Lebowski wrote:
You should find that once the rewards settle it will definitely be a better isk per hour than a normal level


Its probably asking for trade secrets, but how the heck do you have a system where the rewards start out bad but get better as more of the missions are done, but then stop getting better at some unspecified point?

Why would this even exist? How does that even benefit anyone?

The dev blog says NOTHING about this, to remind you. No mention whatsoever of the fact the mission rewards will be 'dynamic'.



this is how the mission system has run for as long as I've known (at least 2007). the main reason that I know of is how long does it take the average mission runner to complete the mission. and in this thread fozzie said something about how often players decline the mission.

it exists to keep the hard mission rewards high and the easy mission rewards low.


PS: got on sisi, only took a few tries at the Angel burner and the missions are quite a bit harder than I thought they would be. looked around and looks like plenty of people have been able to take most of them down with rather reasonable fits so far.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Linkxsc162534
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#228 - 2014-08-27 01:06:40 UTC
Couple questions, i cant go on test server but can some people clear this up.

The worm, he uses light missiles right? I dont actually know, im just guestimating from what people are saying.
If so, about how often does he fire, and how many missiles are there?
Basically, can you defender him to drop his dps?

Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#229 - 2014-08-27 05:04:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mission isk and lp rewards use a system that autocalculates them based on a number of factors (including how quickly people complete the mission on average and how often they decline it). Unfortunately this means that the mission completion rewards will be a bit wonky on Sisi, and for the first couple days on TQ.


Is that unique to burner missions?

Because from what i've experienced on TQ, that doesn't seem to be the case with standard level 4 missions.


It's the case with all standard missions. The reason you don't notice it for other missions is they are calculating from such a giant pool of runs that it changes extremely slowly.


So by no one running mining missions and distribution missions, that's why their worth is low?
Chuck Sanussi
BOVRIL bOREers Mining CO-OP
Goonswarm Federation
#230 - 2014-08-27 06:12:00 UTC
Um.

Sansha Succubus - 32km lock range. Assuming boosts (I read about them somewhere) let's say he had 50km lock range.

Orbits at 15km, shoots scorch. So I figured - if that's supposed to be PVE-PVP-ish content, why not counter it.

Maulus 3x damp, DDA and drones, rails.

Correct me if I am wrong, but 3x 42% damp targetting range should get this succubus to lock range way under 10km. Why it was able to lock me at 20km?

Either we go sane or we go insane. Also I don't recall any scrammed mwd and 60% webbed frig to fly at around 600m/s.


Is this how it was intended, CCPs?
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#231 - 2014-08-27 06:36:54 UTC
They don't have EFT-sane stats.

You can't hit out to 30km with antimatter from rail DD for example.

Ewar does not work (except maybe ECM, but there are reports that it's now useless too).

And about lock range. I have checked. Blood burner has about 220-230km lock range. Abandon your hope.
Cat Akakami
Big Titz High Critz
#232 - 2014-08-27 07:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Akakami
Long version

after only 16hrs of accepting, declining and/or doing L4 missions in my Enyo I finally get a burner mission. . .Blood Angels version (Cruor)

Reading the info i bring dual webs to get in blaster range, a small cap booster, an anc armor repper and ~80% armor resist against EM and Therm.

1st try
1st hit, 473 dmg, my shield is gone. . .completely. From there on out he keeps hitting for 160ish - ~200dmg with the occasional 200ish smashing hit, the repper is cycling nonstop and can barely keep up.... so the fight gonna end the moment the repper runs out of paste. . .or not. Navy cap50 totally fails, any bigger charge would have me reloading every or every 2nd injection. . .300 gun dps barely lasted to reach 60% armor.

2nd try
another Enyo, meta4 small nos and a cap battery instead of the cap booster. At least i made it until the repper had to reload paste.

3rd try
Cruor time, dual nos and a cap battery. My cap lasts forever. . . my tank/reps only 1min.....despite going as much tank as possible and thus being left at 100dps.

4rd try
Worm this time. Kiting time. Appearently he has 10km nos range, 20km scram range ~30km web range (~60-70%) and ~33km lock range. The moment I left 20km range (because he decided to web a drone instead of me) and the scram was off me, he switched target and started to 2-4hit my drones. I brought a full drone bay of augmented Hob... by the time the last Hob died I had caused 36oo dmg (according to log), he was at ~30% armor....

5th try
another enyo, ECM in mid slot this time. turned out that unbonussed ECM is somewhat unreliable.

6th try
Griffin... The ECM sticks, he keeps flying around aimlessly. . .unable to lock me. . and i still occasionally take dmg from him mid-cycle ?! The moment he gets below 6km distance he is suddenly immune to ECM, locking me mid cycle and keeping me locked. End

etc


short version

You might as well introduce a mission that requires a fully skilled L5 titan pilot. . ..

After reading posts of successfull attempts it is obvious, that you HAVE to use 1 out of 1 or 2 frigates. . .out of several dozen existing.

You NEED 2x L5 frigate skill (pirate frigate) or L4+ assault frigate (for af ofc), T2 weapon system, near max weapon support skills, max fitting skills, (near) max cap and tank skills....
And you still have to get an expensive faction/deadspace fit, partly because the slots/grid/CPU of a frig can't support a full T2 fit.
Just to stand a chance. Loosing the ship is still very possible, seeing how the Cruor can just take out ~30% of your primary 80% resist tank with a single smashing hit.
This resulting in a basically useless 100mil+ frigate that is only needed for a SINGLE mission I MIGHT get every few DAYS.
A mission that pays ~2mil reward, 5mil bounty and somewhat 5000ish LP, assuming I succeed.

With 5 Burner missions in total, that sums up to up to 5 meaninglessly expensive frigates collecting dust and the player requiring nearly all light missile, small guns, light drones, drone/gunnery/missile, armor, shield, support, cap, frigate, assault frigate and fitting skills to 5 or at least 4.

Now a serious question: Who or what made the responsible developer(s) think that a measly 7-8mil and some 5k LP every few days would make that even remotely worth it ?
Thats not even including that almost anyone can easily run normal L4 missions in a BS (or drake, gila, etc) with mediocre skills while many, if not most, mission runners will lack at least some of the skills needed for this. The risk/reward and requirements won't make anyone waste up to 3weeks just to train into the 1 out of maybe 2 assault frigs (+T2 guns) that can actually win the 1 mission you get maybe 2 or 3 times a week....
Cat Akakami
Big Titz High Critz
#233 - 2014-08-27 07:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Akakami
Chuck Sanussi wrote:
Um.

Sansha Succubus - 32km lock range. Assuming boosts (I read about them somewhere) let's say he had 50km lock range.

Orbits at 15km, shoots scorch. So I figured - if that's supposed to be PVE-PVP-ish content, why not counter it.

Maulus 3x damp, DDA and drones, rails.

Correct me if I am wrong, but 3x 42% damp targetting range should get this succubus to lock range way under 10km. Why it was able to lock me at 20km?



Crappy Gurista Saboteur (a griffin) can lock at 200km+ ranges, jam at 130km+ ranges.
Concord has 100% jam chance and more warp disrupter strength then you can possibly counter.

Nobody ever said that any NPC has the same stats or fitting limitations as a player controlled version of that ship or that NPC are affected by EWAR the same way players are.

Edit:
bored as I am. I did 3550 dmg to the cruor., dropping him to ~30% armor using Void .Using the normal Cruor profile (shield = 0,6486...x armor,480shield <-> 740armor) that would put him at ~1707 Shield (Cruor 480base) and ~2632 Armor (Cruor 740base).

He kept scoring ~160-200dmg hits against my ~80% resist tank, that means he should do 800-1000dmg per shot base. Using 6% implants, max skills, Small Energy Collision Accelerator II, 4x officer heat sink, small focused pulse laser II and conflagration... a player caps at 588,62 dmg per salvo (says the tools).
Phoenix Czech
AZ Solutions CZ
CZECH Alliance
#234 - 2014-08-27 09:35:44 UTC
I tryed Sansha burner yesterday. I had full lvl 5 skilled character in HAWK with 200 DPS, 11K EHP, 20 HP/S passive recharge. Plus I had full skilled fleet booster in Claymore (the same fit as is used for incrusion fleets). After about 4 minutes of fight with the burner I was not able to penetrate his armor tank. He got my shield to 10%. So I decided to come on the grid with second character in Kitsune. I jamed him and run away with both characters. Without Kitsune help, the Hawk did not escape.

The second try was with the HAWK and friend in 300 DPS WORM. Than we killed the burner realy fast (30 seconds and he was down).

So if you have two characters in T2 or Pirate frigates with something about 600 + DPS together and good tank to survive about half a minute, you can probably kill the Sansha burner. I did not tryed another burners.

It is realy not possible to do this missions solo with one character, so I recomend to everyone do not try it solo, take friends with you.

I like the concept CCP is trying to do here. But I thing it needs to be ballanced much more better.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#235 - 2014-08-27 11:12:27 UTC
Phoenix Czech wrote:

It is realy not possible to do this missions solo with one character, so I recomend to everyone do not try it solo, take friends with you.
.

It is not possible to do this missions solo with a frankenfrig fit thrown together from mission loot and without any thought put into it.

After extensive testing on SiSi I believe it's possible to solo every burner with a properly fitted AF in a T2/cheap faction fit.

Wolf for blood and sansha, vengenance for angel, hawk or harpy for serpntis, enyo for guri.
Cat Akakami
Big Titz High Critz
#236 - 2014-08-27 11:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Akakami
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Phoenix Czech wrote:

It is realy not possible to do this missions solo with one character, so I recomend to everyone do not try it solo, take friends with you.
.

It is not possible to do this missions solo with a frankenfrig fit thrown together from mission loot and without any thought put into it.

After extensive testing on SiSi I believe it's possible to solo every burner with a properly fitted AF in a T2/cheap faction fit.

Wolf for blood and sansha, vengenance for angel, hawk or harpy for serpntis, enyo for guri.



So you basically agree with me that you need a special pirate / AF for each mission with a special fit only useful for that very mission.

I highly doubt the T2 fit part, and since when is faction cheap ? Even the cheapest faction mods start around 10mil and reach up to several HUNDRED mil. Remember your flying a 20-30mil AF or 40-100mil pirate hull.

In my first try on the Blood Raider i used a (I believe) considerably well prepared T2 Enyo (price ~45mil, 300 gun dps) with 8ooo EHP (56oo EHP Armor), 79,07% and 81,52% armor resistence against the used weapon and a 165DPS active tank. the result is still floating in space....the 5k EHP Cruor with a 120dps tank (worth ~120mil) suffered the same fate.

I should probably add that I would normally consider both fits to be shitfits. Overtanked frigs without prop mod (not like there is any point in a fight against a guy with ~30km web range and ~20km scram range unless you can consistently engage noticably beyond 30km)

Phoenix Czech wrote:

So if you have two characters in T2 or Pirate frigates with something about 600 + DPS together and good tank to survive about half a minute, you can probably kill the Sansha burner.


Bringing (almost) battleship DPS should be enough to burn every burner. But blobbing the mission kinda defeats the idea behind it and besides, the reward isnt reall'y worth wasting 2+ chars in rather expensive frigs (that need to be very good skilled), especially since you randomly gain those missions like once in a blue moon.

EDIT:

[Enyo, Burner Daredevil]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Centii A-Type Kinetic Plating
Centii A-Type Thermic Plating
Coreli A-Type Small Armor Repairer

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Small Anti-Thermic Pump II

Warrior II x1

..."cheap" faction fit, quoted from a different thread.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#237 - 2014-08-27 11:54:38 UTC
Cat Akakami wrote:

So you basically agree with me that you need a special pirate / AF for each mission with a special fit only useful for that very mission.

Yes. I believe the missions were, for better or worse, specifically tailored for this. In their previous redaction it was kinda possible to do them all in a DD, but apparently it was considered "too easy". Which murdered the variety with a big butcher knife.
Cat Akakami wrote:

I highly doubt the T2 fit part, and since when is faction cheap ? Even the cheapest faction mods start around 10mil and reach up to several HUNDRED mil. Remember your flying a 20-30mil AF or 40-100mil pirate hull.

I only can wolf, and I used a meta4/T2 fit for blood and sansha with great success. Seen a video of a veng soloing a dram (I used T2/meta4 DD instead). Assume enyo and harpy (or enyo and enyo) can do the other two. At least pyfa math matches up.

Not all faction is expensive. Faction kinetic hardeners (the stuff that actually matters with burners, because the nasty DPS ones are DD and worm) go for 4-6 mil (really, T2 rigs can be more expensive). Faction kin/therm shield amps are cheap too. And those faction mods are for low CPU requirements, so not necessary if your fit is not low on it or can do with meta4 (rat-specific tanked AFs can). Deadspace adaptive platings are very cheap too (unless ANP).
Cat Akakami wrote:

In my first try on the Blood Raider i used a (I believe) considerably well prepared T2 Enyo (price ~45mil, 300 gun dps) with 8ooo EHP (56oo EHP Armor), 79,07% and 81,52% armor resistence against the used weapon and a 165DPS active tank. the result is still floating in space....the 5k EHP Cruor with a 120dps tank (worth ~120mil) suffered the same fate.

You used a wrong tool for the job. It's that simple. A cap hungry AF with a wrong resist profile against a neuting NPC. A shitfit wolf, on the other hand, would eat it for breakfast. But would fail at 3 of 5 buners.
Cat Akakami wrote:

I should probably add that I would normally consider both fits to be shitfits. Overtanked frigs without prop mod (not like there is any point in a fight against a guy with ~30km web range and ~20km scram range unless you can consistently engage noticably beyond 30km)

All PvE fits are shitfits.
Lugalzagezi666
#238 - 2014-08-27 11:59:15 UTC
Cat Akakami wrote:

[Enyo, Burner Daredevil]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Centii A-Type Kinetic Plating
Centii A-Type Thermic Plating
Coreli A-Type Small Armor Repairer

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Small Anti-Thermic Pump II

Warrior II x1

..."cheap" faction fit, quoted from a different thread.


Apart from webs and rep fit is actually really cheap. T2 rep (or c-type) should be more than enough if I remember and you can get away with overheating m4 webs instead of faction webs (if you have good skills). Platings are like 1m isk and rigs maybe 5m, but t1 rigs should be enough.

Anyway, yes, burner missions are about using gimmick fits against gimick npcs that have very little common with real pvp. Except that outcome of the fight is decided before you even undock and that blobing your enemy always works best.Lol
Cat Akakami
Big Titz High Critz
#239 - 2014-08-27 12:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Akakami
Torgeir Hekard wrote:

You used a wrong tool for the job. It's that simple. A cap hungry AF with a wrong resist profile against a neuting NPC. A shitfit wolf, on the other hand, would eat it for breakfast. But would fail at 3 of 5 buners.



my 2nd Enyo died cuz of tank failing, my cap would have lasted forever and longer. Enyo 50% EM, 67.5% Therm... conflagration doing 50/50 EM/Therm. . .where exactly is your "wrong resist profile" ? Esp. seeing how i had ~80/80 resist during the fight. My 300 turret dps should be more then a match for your wolf and no, i canNOT use any T2 frigs besides gallente.

You obviously didn't bother reading much, but at least you agree on my main point that you basically HAVE to bring 1 out of maybe 1-2 possible frigates and massively overtank them, just to have a chance, assuming you have (almost) perfect skills or just pretend it's pvp and blob them "elite pvp, jita level" style.

Lugalzagezi666 wrote:


Anyway, yes, burner missions are about using gimmick fits against gimick npcs that have very little common with real pvp. Except that outcome of the fight is decided before you even undock and that blobing your enemy always works best.Lol



Isn't that the very definition of Eve pvp ? Blob the sh!t outta them and prove your epeen by showing off your incredibly killmails ? <.<'
(at least 95% of the time)
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#240 - 2014-08-27 12:45:39 UTC
Chuck Sanussi wrote:
Um.
Maulus 3x damp, DDA and drones, rails.

These npc's are immune to ewar so you can't use damps, ecm...
I tryed it has no effect.