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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Scale up the size of mining barges/exhumers
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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#1 - 2011-12-09 15:27:40 UTC
First of all, it's completely absurd that some battleships can mine ore better than some specialized mining ships.

Ergo, the smallest mining ship should be re-balanced to mine about as well as a BS with mining lasers.... and go up proportionally from there.

The simple fact is this:

1) everything about EVE depends on miners doing their thing
2) many activities in eve pay better than mining so the prices of minerals are inflating as fewer miners are mining

Mining ships should be rebalanced so that a max miner can make about as much ISK mining high-grade ore as a logi pilot can make flying in incursions.

It can't possibly be CCP's intention to discourage miners and since you've started creating massive isk faucets outside of the mining profession, miners need some love.

Get it done. gogogo

T-
Wormerling
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-12-09 15:31:11 UTC
I don't find arguments convincing enough.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#3 - 2011-12-09 15:59:43 UTC
Wormerling wrote:
I don't find arguments convincing enough.


Thanks for the feedback. Let me try again then.

In the last year there has been a 15% - 20% increase in the price of the most common minerals... the minerals that control the price of most ships and modules.

Why?

The economy in EVE is very simple. It's supply and demand... faucet and sink. There's not much beyond the efforts of players and (and Goons) driving the prices of most things on the market.

If mineral prices are going up, it can mean only one thing. There is more demand than supply. The difference might be small at the moment but if you consider that someone in a Hulk mining Arkonor takes (correct me if I'm wrong) on the order of 5 hours to make about 100mil isk with it, and that the same person with the same training lead-time can fly a scimitar and make 100mil isk per hour running incursions... then what do you think this player will do?

... fly incursions, of course.

which means less mining.

which means less supply as compared to demand

which causes inflation

which means you, me and everyone else in EVE pays more isk for every...single...player-made-item they buy.

What does this mean to you? It means you have less effecive buying-power for your hours of effort grinding rats or whatever you do for isk.

In other words... to put it quite simply, if mining isn't *among* the more profitable occupations in EVE then EVERYONE loses.

If you do nothing, of course, inflation will eventually catch up with the other isk faucets and the equation will balance out but on an hour for hour effort that means we can look forward to paying about 120mil isk for a Drake before miners go back en masse to mining and inflation slows. Inflation last year (before the ridiculous isk of incursions) was 15-20% on the most common minerals. Economic indicators make me think that it will get worse than that next year.

All of this translates into one thing.... more hours of isk grinding to buy the same amount of stuff.

Any way you disect it, the eve economy is highly dependent upon miners. I'm not suggesting buffing miners because I feel sorry for them... i'm suggesting it because I think inflation on the mineral market will reach epic proportions if we don't.

T-
Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-12-09 16:06:18 UTC
I agree partly. Perhaps strip miners need a buff?
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#5 - 2011-12-09 16:15:17 UTC
Rawls Canardly wrote:
I agree partly. Perhaps strip miners need a buff?


TBH I'm not sure about the solution. One solution is to adjust the mining amount. Another solution is to allow for bigger drones (like fighter or fighter-bomber sized mining drones????) yet another solution might be to allow more turret hard-points for mining ships and adjust their cap so they can run them.....

Solutions are out there..... The goal, however, must be to ensure that mining can keep pace with other occupations on an isk/hr basis so people don't stop mining.... because if they do, we're all ... well... you know.

T-
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#6 - 2011-12-09 17:02:17 UTC
First, there is nothing wrong with mining in a BS. You should not be forced to use mining barge to mine (esp. in low/nullsec). Save the Covetor, the other ships have always been stepping stones. Even before the new tier 3 BSs came out, the Apoc could out mine two ORE ships. The Apoc existed before the barges, so this was no surprise to anyone designing the ships or knowledgeable of the game.

Second, mining faster means greater supply, which means lower prices. If there were less people mining the prices would go up.

Third, you can build just fine with drone refinables and by grinding loot (both of which have already been greatly reduced, esp. in highsec missions).

Sorry, not with you on this one.

Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Mining ships should be rebalanced so that a max miner can make about as much ISK mining high-grade ore as a logi pilot can make flying in incursions.

That is an activity that requires a group. Solo-mining should not equal something that takes a group to do. Now, equal to missions, that I could see, if you have to purchase faction gear to do it.

I think mining missions should be relative to security missions. Now miners would mine refinable ore less, causing demand to go up. Once the prices outweighed missions, miners would switch back. CCP could then get a better control on the market.

More ore does not equal more isk.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#7 - 2011-12-09 17:43:42 UTC
really, the mineral prices going up isn't a bad thing ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#8 - 2011-12-09 17:44:30 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
First, there is nothing wrong with mining in a BS. You should not be forced to use mining barge to mine (esp. in low/nullsec). Save the Covetor, the other ships have always been stepping stones. Even before the new tier 3 BSs came out, the Apoc could out mine two ORE ships. The Apoc existed before the barges, so this was no surprise to anyone designing the ships or knowledgeable of the game.


OMG I get so tired of people who think the forums are yet another platform for PVP. .... Fail!

Quote:

Second, mining faster means greater supply, which means lower prices. If there were less people mining the prices would go up.


On this point we agree... but given that you live in drone space (or... actually... didn't you get kicked out of there?)

I don't expect you to see the utility in what I'm saying. You have a different agenda. I'm sure you're a supplier so you like the high prices. The REST of eve, however, would prefer LOWER prices. The Drone Russians are not 99.9% of eve although you might like you think you are......

Quote:

Third, you can build just fine with drone refinables and by grinding loot (both of which have already been greatly reduced, esp. in highsec missions).


LOL... next.

Quote:
(incursions) an activity that requires a group. Solo-mining should not equal something that takes a group to do. Now, equal to missions, that I could see, if you have to purchase faction gear to do it.


This would have been a good point if it were impossible for a solo logi pilot to find an incursion fleet to fly in..... the fact is, however, that incursions is an activity that involves solo pilots working together. The way it works is not like a corp or alliance. You've obviously never tried it.

Quote:

More ore does not equal more isk.


That's not the point of my post. My post is intended to point out that high-sec incursions are causing inflation in the mineral market and that something needs to be done about that. Lowering incursions rewards is a perfectly acceptable alternative as long as miners go back to mining. I don't care... mining is the core of eve...

I don't think anyone gets this yet (not even CCP... despite having an over-payed and under-performing economist on staff) but in a year from now you'll all know.

T-
Nahrud Zirud
Doomheim
#9 - 2011-12-09 20:00:06 UTC
and kinda of along these lines the size of the orca needs to be increased. when you can park a mach inside a much smaller orca there is a scaling issue
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
#10 - 2011-12-10 00:53:38 UTC
To me is several ways to help out miners.

1. Get rid of drone crystals,(put regular bounties on the drones) this will help get rid of a lot of extra minerals hitting the market. Help raise the prices some and get more people mining.

2. Larger cargo bays in all exhumers and larger carrying capacity of orcas and Rorq's.

3. Increase the size of the roids in high sec and alittle in 0.0. Not much mining gets done in low sec, is some but not much.


These ideas IMO would help out legit miners a lot, help them make more ISK, get more people mining again and be better for Eve in general.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-12-10 01:09:11 UTC
other then noxcium, mineral prices are way to low. in fact most are lower then when i joined in 09.
Pyerite was about 7.2isk each, noxcium was only 75 each lol.
everything else was expensive though which was good, because many people join the game and figure, mine, make money, do other stuff.
now its
mine, find out mining is not only boring, but not as good as mission running which is a bit more fun and makes lot more money.

i wouldnt mind barges being bigger, and a bit better, BUT drones would have to stop dropping minerals. mining should be pretty much the only way to get minerals short of reprocessing stuff you get as loot.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#12 - 2011-12-11 06:51:44 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
OMG I get so tired of people who think the forums are yet another platform for PVP. .... Fail!

Much of Eve is PvP. Mining, markets, and naturally combat pit us against each other. As for the forums, for me, a win would be if you argued against my point in a more "structured" fashion. No matter.

Btw, never been to drone space. As for supply, I actually am (occasionally) a miner, so yes. I didn't mine much out in nullsec, which saddens me a bit. I was looking forward to it. The reason being I was building battleships out of chain-ratting loot. All while hunting and being hunted; it was fun while it lasted.

As for soloists working together, that is still a group. Miners can make a nice income in groups in low/nullsec. When I lived in lowsec some of the mining ops were insane. CCP wants players to work together, be it in groups called corps or just random players banding together. They are the ones who want group efforts to be more profitable; I happen to agree. I see your point, but do not agree in the differentiation. Miners can join low/nullsec mining branches of alliances; highsec mining corps can get nice contracts if they have the right connections.

Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
mining is the core of eve...

Sadly, as much as my miner heart wants to agree, I have to say mining should be the core of eve. Mission drop rates where lowered in an effort to raise mineral prices. There is talk of putting bounties on drones to make mining more profitable. Modification of drone drop rates have been tried. What happened? Nocx prices went through the roof. Why? Most of the supply came from drones. That did cause a spike in mining... of pyrox. Heck, shuttles used to be sold by NPCs at every station. They removed this because it artificially limited the price of trit. People could just grind shuttles if the prices were too high. All efforts on the part of CCP to put mining at the heart of Eve; all signs that it is not in its rightful place.
Oliver Stoned
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-12-13 09:11:31 UTC
Those are some good ideas.

A word of warning.
With the changes in destroyers, ganking miners in the belts just got alot cheaper.
And in a 1.0 system at that!
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#14 - 2011-12-13 09:35:16 UTC
+1 if you stand back from the game and look at it from a non objective view and think about it as a sci fi space travelling game. Fighting, and looting ancient drone parts is not how empires would grow. they would grow from mining resources. just look at our earth. we need every last bit of mineral she has to push us into the future (at least we will soon enough). so developing more effecient mining equipment and transportation is an increadably high priority. and of course protecting that operation, but then thats the rest of eve.

In my opinion mining should yeild increadably more minerals than it does. people should be fighting over astriods and waging war in high sec, not just low and nul where the good stuff is. fighting for territory is definately a legitamite cause for disputes, but i feel there is a un appreciated potential within eve for the race for resource.

(like my long winded way of saying; supported? Bear)
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#15 - 2011-12-13 10:39:23 UTC
First I must admit I'm industrial and miner.

Solving the "problem" of rising mineral prices is something complicated. Yes it is about demand an request. But as you have shown the mineral prices are too low to compete with other professions. They are going up recently but that's because there is too much money in the game. (Inflation)

I'm not sure about it but to my knowledge prices of high value minerals have been much higher in the past. There is a series of problems why miners are not so active.

1. the so called mission mining (reprocessing all the loot) is still a great source for minerals that should be reduced to favour miners.
2. Drone loot is far too mineral heavy. Maybe change it to some kind of MoonGoo or some simple reaction outputs. That would also help with Moon mineral distribution.
3. The Cargos of Orca and Rorqual need a buff to support larger Miningops. Maybe Introducing a new large cargo Hauler with very large ore bay but no gang link bonus.
4. Roids die too fast. The high sec roids are very soon depleted. A gang of 3 to 5 Players can easily empty 3 to 5 belts in about 4 Hours.
5. 0.0 Mining is greatly unbalanced. Providing the Industrial upgrade you can transform ANY system to get huge hidden belts that have a lot of high value mins to exploit and a serious lack of low minerals.
This might be solved by adding more different kinds of hidden belts depending on true security and providing low mineral ore with +30% yield to be worth mining.

Doing some rebalancing to Mining Barges would still be nice. The poor covetor is hardly used because you need mining barge V and than you only a few hours away from Hulk. The retriever should beat any BS in mining performance.
With current Belt health (Roids die too fast) the range bonus of strip miners over Miner II is a significant advantage tbh.
Oliver Stoned
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-12-13 10:57:58 UTC
Chanina wrote:

1. the so called mission mining (reprocessing all the loot) is still a great source for minerals that should be reduced to favour miners.
2. Drone loot is far too mineral heavy. Maybe change it to some kind of MoonGoo or some simple reaction outputs. That would also help with Moon mineral distribution.
3. The Cargos of Orca and Rorqual need a buff to support larger Miningops. Maybe Introducing a new large cargo Hauler with very large ore bay but no gang link bonus.
4. Roids die too fast. The high sec roids are very soon depleted. A gang of 3 to 5 Players can easily empty 3 to 5 belts in about 4 Hours.
5. 0.0 Mining is greatly unbalanced. Providing the Industrial upgrade you can transform ANY system to get huge hidden belts that have a lot of high value mins to exploit and a serious lack of low minerals.
This might be solved by adding more different kinds of hidden belts depending on true security and providing low mineral ore with +30% yield to be worth mining.
.

1: yes
2: Drones loot does need to be adjusted. Big time.
3: Do you know how long it took to get the Orca?
4: Yes, but this won't be fixed anytime soon.
5: You are correct, but most won't invest in system as someone else will take it over and reap the benefits.

Adding a better variety of Gravimetrics could possibly solve this.

Retask t Procurer to be a gas miner or comet chaser.