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Supers Can't Disappear

Author
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2014-08-25 15:49:49 UTC
So what I read is that the OP thinks the big blocs should be the only ones to have supers.

I'm sure it would be a lot of fun for them as they helicopter **** all the kill-mail pinatas after the change is implemented. Not so much fun for anyone else though.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#122 - 2014-08-25 15:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
+1 for no etheral, magical palce where spaceships sleep.

But this suggestion doesn't reach far enough. No spaceship should be save when logged off in space. I know we have emergency warps at timeout, disc etc..
So what if the emergency warp out is kept, but only mainteained for the reasonable amount of 10 minutes giving you enough time to log in from any disconnect, then the ship warps back in, void of a pilot.
This means in PvE it is no longer targeted by NPCs and can be salvaged/resuced by friends or picked up by random exploreres - yay a decent explorer profession.
In PvP it means it can be blown up or seized by either friend or foe.
But basically all the timers in combat will already give you certain death when you disc., so it actually doesn't really change much there.

I know, what about electricity or something else happening ... well, accidents happen, anyway, you know what you got yourself into when you hit 'Undock'.

PS: My FW chars have give up their SS log-out locations too ,) And am gonna hunt for the multiboxing afk miner who just disc 8)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#123 - 2014-08-25 21:11:12 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
+1 for no etheral, magical palce where spaceships sleep.

But this suggestion doesn't reach far enough. No spaceship should be save when logged off in space. I know we have emergency warps at timeout, disc etc..
So what if the emergency warp out is kept, but only mainteained for the reasonable amount of 10 minutes giving you enough time to log in from any disconnect, then the ship warps back in, void of a pilot.
This means in PvE it is no longer targeted by NPCs and can be salvaged/resuced by friends or picked up by random exploreres - yay a decent explorer profession.
In PvP it means it can be blown up or seized by either friend or foe.
But basically all the timers in combat will already give you certain death when you disc., so it actually doesn't really change much there.

I know, what about electricity or something else happening ... well, accidents happen, anyway, you know what you got yourself into when you hit 'Undock'.

PS: My FW chars have give up their SS log-out locations too ,) And am gonna hunt for the multiboxing afk miner who just disc 8)


We understand it is not realistic for ships to despawn and spawn while in space. However, since most of us have real life responsibilities, real life emergencies, etc, we often suspend realism within the game to provide reasonable accommodations for players.

Disconnects happen: Power goes out from a storm, kids have an accident, Connectivity issues shut out entire regions of the world from the servers, and DDoS attacks force the servers to shut down. I could go on, but creating an environment were the number one reason for losing your ships is because you weren't able to log on an move it to safety would be a terrible game mechanic!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#124 - 2014-08-25 21:23:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
We understand it is not realistic for ships to despawn and spawn while in space. However, since most of us have real life responsibilities, real life emergencies, etc, we often suspend realism within the game to provide reasonable accommodations for players.

Disconnects happen: Power goes out from a storm, kids have an accident, Connectivity issues shut out entire regions of the world from the servers, and DDoS attacks force the servers to shut down. I could go on, but creating an environment were the number one reason for losing your ships is because you weren't able to log on an move it to safety would be a terrible game mechanic!

Serious question here:

At what point is the player responsible for risking their in-game assets?

You undock in a ship that you can't easily replace, should you be worried if you get disconnected, or on the other hand should players drop connection as a best method to avoid losing ships?
I don't feel qualified to second guess intentions, as I suspect both would claim to be victims of disconnect-itis.

Where do we draw the line, so we know it is not abused by either side?
That super is an amazing kill mail for one guy, but also a highly valued game-play aspect for another player.

This seems to be one heck of a gray area.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2014-08-25 21:30:01 UTC
Just let the space coffins dock already.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#126 - 2014-08-25 21:55:19 UTC
I had a super warp to a gang I was in on gate once. first time I ever saw an aeon. wasn't that impressed as it was able to save the navy aug that had pinged the super and we couldn't do anything in our frigs against it but it could do anything against us. just sort of sat there trying to kill a handful of frigs with bombers. To bad at the time no one had a bat phone to get someone in a hic to point it and kill it.

These ships cant really do anything alone as it is if you want to take away there ability to be safe than they need to gain something.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#127 - 2014-08-26 00:22:27 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
We understand it is not realistic for ships to despawn and spawn while in space. However, since most of us have real life responsibilities, real life emergencies, etc, we often suspend realism within the game to provide reasonable accommodations for players.

Disconnects happen: Power goes out from a storm, kids have an accident, Connectivity issues shut out entire regions of the world from the servers, and DDoS attacks force the servers to shut down. I could go on, but creating an environment were the number one reason for losing your ships is because you weren't able to log on an move it to safety would be a terrible game mechanic!

Serious question here:

At what point is the player responsible for risking their in-game assets?

You undock in a ship that you can't easily replace, should you be worried if you get disconnected, or on the other hand should players drop connection as a best method to avoid losing ships?
I don't feel qualified to second guess intentions, as I suspect both would claim to be victims of disconnect-itis.

Where do we draw the line, so we know it is not abused by either side?
That super is an amazing kill mail for one guy, but also a highly valued game-play aspect for another player.

This seems to be one heck of a gray area.


This isn't a grey area. The answer is very simple: You risk your ship when you are flying it.

Undock it and you are flying it. When you log off, you are NOT flying it.

Players used to purposely drop connection to avoid losing ships. A tanked ship often had enough buffer to survive the 60 second despawn timer, and in situations where you were likely to die otherwise players would do everything possible to save their ships. However, when crimewatch 2.0 was implemented, this loophole was completely removed. Now your ship won't despawn until your timers clear, be it a weapon's timers (1 min), NPC timers (5 minutes to despawn when engaging NPCs), or PvP timers (15 minutes from the last time you shot or were shot). These are all timers you get from flying your ship. Furthermore, to make it absolutely clear that they don't want you to log-off as a get-out-of-jail card, you may receive a PvP timer even after logoff, if someone attacks your ship before it despawns. The result is a very balanced system.

The timers make it so if you are being attacked, you can't log off to get safe.

If you are being hunted, logging off is risky but still possible. Even if you have no timers, the default 60s despawn window is long enough a hunter to scan down your ship and attack it and then destroying it.

However, if you are out somewhere in space, away from any threats, you can reliably log off and safely despawn your ship. At that point, you aren't flying your ship anymore, and it would be idiotic for CCP to insist your ship is "still in danger" from some passerby that happens to swing through system several hours later. I don't care if you are flying a noobship or a titan, this system is balanced and fair for both the hunted and the hunters.

The proposal removes this balance for supercaps. It suggests it should be in danger all the time. Inside a POS is not safe, because the POS can always be offlined by members of your corp with the appropriate roles (CEO, Directors, +others). Furthermore, a POS may be destroyed. POSs are regularly bubble wrapped and camped through entire 1day 17 hrs RF cycles; just ask any WH resident. The result of the proposal is that supers have to be in lowsec to have any hope of safety (cause you can't bubble wrap the POS there), and even then it is extremely dangerous and difficult to keep your ship safe from ANY larger entity.

This is moving supers in VERY much the wrong direction. You want supers in the hands of people that can't call 500 people in to get them out of a trap.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#128 - 2014-08-26 13:14:36 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
This isn't a grey area. The answer is very simple: You risk your ship when you are flying it.

Undock it and you are flying it. When you log off, you are NOT flying it.

...

This is moving supers in VERY much the wrong direction. You want supers in the hands of people that can't call 500 people in to get them out of a trap.

I gotta say, this makes a very compelling point.

While an ideal system would possibly risk all ships at all times, to varying degrees.... we cannot also ignore the net effects that this is a game, and that such an environment would create a snowball effect in power favoring the larger groups.

We don't want a winner to emerge, (on that scale), or the game effectively has ended.

We like battles, we want to see battles resolved... but the war is something we want to keep going.
Because it makes the battles we like.
Poena Loveless
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2014-08-27 05:41:04 UTC
I can't disagree more. It should not depend on your ship type as for the safety of returning to your ship. Many people, including myself, have had RL events transpire that has forced us to leave the game for long, very long periods (think 12-16 months)

You are essentially saying if you need to leave, better give your super cap (many people it is at least 50-75% of their in-gamer worth) to someone else, or loose it to some troll cov. ops and a wet biscuit fleet.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-11-19 19:56:54 UTC
Howabout this: make supercapitals stay in space for a month and then disappear. It makes them vulnerable all the time pretty much if they are being used, but if the owner has to go away, the ship will eventually fade from space - hopefully before sovereignty changes over in its system.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#131 - 2014-11-19 20:03:54 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Howabout this: make supercapitals stay in space for a month and then disappear. It makes them vulnerable all the time pretty much if they are being used, but if the owner has to go away, the ship will eventually fade from space - hopefully before sovereignty changes over in its system.

Or, you could have them use an exposed docking mechanic.

The ship is visible on the outside of the station or Outpost, and can be targeted the same as other aspects of said station or outpost.

Yes, this would mean needing a POS or Outpost in order to keep your super or titan relatively secure.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#132 - 2014-11-19 20:25:58 UTC
They should not disappear from space. Instead give POS' a way to let someone park a super (fixed) in a pos. That way its still protected, but highly visible. RL may intervene but i would hope your corp/alliance is smart enough to protects all its POS assests without you around.

Like supercap parking garages. This would also allow super pilots to leave the ship in a safe area but it would not just magically disappear. This also gives alliances with huge supercap fleets more expenses for maintaining that large fleet. Since they would need multiple pos to park their supers.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2014-11-19 20:31:44 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
They should not disappear from space. Instead give POS' a way to let someone park a super (fixed) in a pos. That way its still protected, but highly visible. RL may intervene but i would hope your corp/alliance is smart enough to protects all its POS assests without you around.

That's all fine and good but there needs to be some protection for when you have to go offline for a month or more. Your corp can't just move the supercap to the new POS after the one its in gets shot down.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#134 - 2014-11-19 20:36:26 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
They should not disappear from space. Instead give POS' a way to let someone park a super (fixed) in a pos. That way its still protected, but highly visible. RL may intervene but i would hope your corp/alliance is smart enough to protects all its POS assests without you around.

That's all fine and good but there needs to be some protection for when you have to go offline for a month or more. Your corp can't just move the supercap to the new POS after the one its in gets shot down.

Now, maybe I am missing a detail, but I would expect that another pilot would be able to valet the cap to a new location.

Like having an assigned role, alternate pilots could be selected to move otherwise secured supers and titans as needed.
(Having the assigned role would be required to release the ship and board it)
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#135 - 2014-11-19 21:04:12 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
They should not disappear from space. Instead give POS' a way to let someone park a super (fixed) in a pos. That way its still protected, but highly visible. RL may intervene but i would hope your corp/alliance is smart enough to protects all its POS assests without you around.

That's all fine and good but there needs to be some protection for when you have to go offline for a month or more. Your corp can't just move the supercap to the new POS after the one its in gets shot down.


Why have a super if you arent gonna fly it for a month? Though i suppose if you unsubbed, only in that case would it disappear. I do like the idea of a valet or temp pilot role better though.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#136 - 2014-11-19 22:00:45 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
They should not disappear from space. Instead give POS' a way to let someone park a super (fixed) in a pos. That way its still protected, but highly visible. RL may intervene but i would hope your corp/alliance is smart enough to protects all its POS assests without you around.

That's all fine and good but there needs to be some protection for when you have to go offline for a month or more. Your corp can't just move the supercap to the new POS after the one its in gets shot down.


Why have a super if you arent gonna fly it for a month? Though i suppose if you unsubbed, only in that case would it disappear. I do like the idea of a valet or temp pilot role better though.



are you saying that once you get a super you are ever allowed to leave the game if you want to keep your super?


If its to not despawn then a large POS needs to have more timers or longer timers 1day to a couple weeks/months. as this would be the only way for a super owner to be able to have a real life.
Helios Panala
#137 - 2014-11-20 13:40:58 UTC
Maybe allow the construction and anchoring of super acceleration gates at a POS.

The Super flies to, selects, gets ejected and the super cap gets flung out into the middle of nowhere (out of the game.) The gate then creates a recall key in its storage and the pilot can use it to have the super cap warp back to that moon. No more supers disappearing out in space, cloaky scouts can watch POS's with gates for traffic and if someone with a super unsubs so long as they made a note of the moon they can go and get the ship even if the POS is gone or replaced with someone elses.

Also potential for many tears if some idiot gets blown apart moving a bunch of super cap keys in a T1 frigate.
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2014-11-20 13:45:51 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
They should not disappear from space. Instead give POS' a way to let someone park a super (fixed) in a pos. That way its still protected, but highly visible. RL may intervene but i would hope your corp/alliance is smart enough to protects all its POS assests without you around.

That's all fine and good but there needs to be some protection for when you have to go offline for a month or more. Your corp can't just move the supercap to the new POS after the one its in gets shot down.


Then that's part of owning a super. If you must offline for a month and nobody in your corp can move it then you should dock it up in the most highly guarded, tough-as-bricks POS setup you can.

I think OP is right, in general. Disappearing supers makes no sense, you should use your POS.
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#139 - 2014-11-20 14:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Havenard
Anya Dyonas wrote:
The basic premise here will center around the idea that Supercarriers and Titans should not disappear when the pilot logs off.

Now, that you are angry and confused, hear me out on this.

Supers and Titans cannot dock, through the theory that 'they are too big to dock'. The intent of the game designers was that this vessel should always be in-play. It is so valuable, and so special, that you should have to work to keep it. However, this mechanic was easily bypassed by the creation of Log-off Alts. And, fair enough. I would do the same as a super capital pilot. Store your vessel in a place that is infinitely safe and secure forever. But, therein lies the problem. This is the complete opposite of the design intent. Rather than being the most vulnerable of vessels, they are the LEAST vulnerable of all vessels. They only EXIST when the pilot is reasonably certain of security and victory. Otherwise, they are hidden in oblivion, safe and secure forever.

The game has a POS module designed specifically for storing supers and titans. This was intended to give the pilots a real place to dump their supers when they are not in use, rather than relying on Log-off Alts. Obviously, this a far less secure way to store the vessel, so it's use has been extremely limited.

With the suggestion from the devs that 'all things should be destructible', then that surely includes stations built by players in Sov space. When those stations blow up, surely everything within them will also be permanently destroyed. It seems unfair that all of the assets of a non-super pilot could be lost forever while super pilots have their most valuable assets stored in an invincible and invisible location.

So, the solution is to have all supers and titans forever 'in-play'. That means they never disappear from space. You can store them in the previously mentioned POS module to keep they from prying eyes and in the safety of a POS RF timer, but logging off with them in-space will simply result in the vessel staying right there, in space, idle.

I know most super pilots will scream 'shinanigans' at this suggestion. Heck, you probably would never have trained or bought the vessel if you didn't know you could secure it via Log-off Alt when you don't want to play with it. And, that is a fair reaction. Such a change of game mechanic would definitely be pulling the rug out from under you. However, this should be the price of having a super capital ship. It should be a chore. It should be a burden. It is not a weapon. It is a SUPER weapon. Thus is should come with extra burden and responsibility to own.

Now, hear me out on the applications in alliance wars, and think of the impact it could have. Suddenly, you cannot just invade a region of null and have these giant armies of supers on a whim. You need to work out the logistics for front-line POS structures to house your army of supers. That army of supers is vulnerable AFTER the battle, when you would otherwise just log them off.

Your supers are always vulnerable, but so are your enemy's. That means if an ally back-stabs you, then you can hit them where it hurts later, getting proper revenge.

Having the supers always in-play will change the commitment and investment of attacking with supers, and the logistics of defending space that houses supers. It will raise questions like "Is it worth the burden to involve the supers in this fight/campaign?" It will push the consequences of people's actions in the game to a new level of possibilities, which is exactly the 'sand box environment' eve is based on.


You forget people have real lifes to attend to, they cant be 24/7 in the game preocuppied with what could happen to their multi billionaire ships drifting in space.

The game mechanics must meet this reality, otherwise the ships just won't be used. This would immediately make Supers and Titans targets of fleets that would search space after "afk capitals" and destroy them for fat killmails, and nobody would ever buy those ships again.
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
#140 - 2014-11-20 14:50:40 UTC
Anya Dyonas wrote:
The basic premise here will center around the idea that Supercarriers and Titans should not disappear when the pilot logs off.

Now, that you are angry and confused, hear me out on this.

Supers and Titans cannot dock, through the theory that 'they are too big to dock'. The intent of the game designers was that this vessel should always be in-play. It is so valuable, and so special, that you should have to work to keep it. However, this mechanic was easily bypassed by the creation of Log-off Alts. And, fair enough. I would do the same as a super capital pilot. Store your vessel in a place that is infinitely safe and secure forever. But, therein lies the problem. This is the complete opposite of the design intent. Rather than being the most vulnerable of vessels, they are the LEAST vulnerable of all vessels. They only EXIST when the pilot is reasonably certain of security and victory. Otherwise, they are hidden in oblivion, safe and secure forever.

The game has a POS module designed specifically for storing supers and titans. This was intended to give the pilots a real place to dump their supers when they are not in use, rather than relying on Log-off Alts. Obviously, this a far less secure way to store the vessel, so it's use has been extremely limited.

With the suggestion from the devs that 'all things should be destructible', then that surely includes stations built by players in Sov space. When those stations blow up, surely everything within them will also be permanently destroyed. It seems unfair that all of the assets of a non-super pilot could be lost forever while super pilots have their most valuable assets stored in an invincible and invisible location.

So, the solution is to have all supers and titans forever 'in-play'. That means they never disappear from space. You can store them in the previously mentioned POS module to keep they from prying eyes and in the safety of a POS RF timer, but logging off with them in-space will simply result in the vessel staying right there, in space, idle.

I know most super pilots will scream 'shinanigans' at this suggestion. Heck, you probably would never have trained or bought the vessel if you didn't know you could secure it via Log-off Alt when you don't want to play with it. And, that is a fair reaction. Such a change of game mechanic would definitely be pulling the rug out from under you. However, this should be the price of having a super capital ship. It should be a chore. It should be a burden. It is not a weapon. It is a SUPER weapon. Thus is should come with extra burden and responsibility to own.

Now, hear me out on the applications in alliance wars, and think of the impact it could have. Suddenly, you cannot just invade a region of null and have these giant armies of supers on a whim. You need to work out the logistics for front-line POS structures to house your army of supers. That army of supers is vulnerable AFTER the battle, when you would otherwise just log them off.

Your supers are always vulnerable, but so are your enemy's. That means if an ally back-stabs you, then you can hit them where it hurts later, getting proper revenge.

Having the supers always in-play will change the commitment and investment of attacking with supers, and the logistics of defending space that houses supers. It will raise questions like "Is it worth the burden to involve the supers in this fight/campaign?" It will push the consequences of people's actions in the game to a new level of possibilities, which is exactly the 'sand box environment' eve is based on.

You take this idea and you keep it alive.

No matter how many threads it takes, you keep this going.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)