These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The great T3 rebalance
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#101 - 2014-08-25 12:31:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
mm.. why would anyone want too fly a ship that could do e-war and logi with decent tank at the same time ..mm... i wonder..


Metioned chart puts T3's beetwen T1 and T2 with ability to choose role. T3 will be nerferd hard to accomplish that. Pls tell me why anybody would fly worse ships? Because they would be worse. In every aspect. Worse but you can still choose, by fitting subsystms, how they would be worse...
Specialisation > generalisation.

Again they don't know what to do to Nestor and you all think they would rebalance T3's? Joke.


People still fly t1 ships. The only area t3 will be worse at will be at trying to do dedicate the job of a HAC or force recon. To date they have done a fantastic job with the ship rebalances and we now have more options for viable ships than ever before. You are just angry because your overpowered FOTM is going away.


T3s are the OP FOTM? *cough* Ishtars

Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

People still fly t1 ships. The only area t3 will be worse at will be at trying to do dedicate the job of a HAC or force recon. To date they have done a fantastic job with the ship rebalances and we now have more options for viable ships than ever before. You are just angry because your overpowered FOTM is going away.



No need to make a massive nerf to achieve that. Only a few subsystems on some of the t3 are really out of whack.. like proteus defensive systems.


Agreed. Change the Augmented Plating and Supplamental Screening subs to a 5% bonus, and all will be fine.

Then buff the 50-75% of subsystems that are so utterly **** I can't even remember their names. Like every Tengu subsystem that isn't the Afterburner one. (Please give the Tengu a practical MWD subsystem. And make the Powercore Multiplier give more powergrid after bonuses that Cap Regen Matrix, that's just ******** as it is.)

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#102 - 2014-08-25 16:27:45 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
People still fly t1 ships. The only area t3 will be worse at will be at trying to do dedicate the job of a HAC or force recon. To date they have done a fantastic job with the ship rebalances and we now have more options for viable ships than ever before. You are just angry because your overpowered FOTM is going away.

Big smile I'm not angry because of the nerf. T3 should never have BS tanks for example. If you change something make it with head. For the fantastic job of rebalance ,look at HAC tweaks thread. Do you think it's valuable changes? Nestor tweaks are such crap i don't even mention it.

I don't support changing (nerfing) hulls just to justify possibility of flying another ones. Dedicated job on Eagle - Tengu will do less with hybrids, dedicated job of Cerberus Tengu will do less with missiles, etc. etc. Where's the advantage of flying it (tengu)? More tank? We've been there already. Throw a bone, because i don't see it. Possibility of changing role? I put t2 agility rigs on hull just to switch them to dps/tank rigs when i'll want to shoot crosses in null?


The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2014-08-25 16:45:31 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
actually that chart puts T3 too the left of T1 ... not between.. again .. being able too do 2 or 3 roles instead of one is worse how exactly??? .. 80% of 2 or 3 roles is well worth using over 100% of 1 role..


So they even worse when become to specialisation than T1's? Why you keep pressing this whole multirole? It would make sense if main hull took all bonuses. 3 role ship? DPS, ECM, covert, active shield tengu? Can be build, but why?. Quit it with this whole swiss army knife ship. I love my swiss army knife, it's a great tool, but when i want to slice bread i will use bread knife. I have no idea what that "generalisation" term mean. Usefulness factor is main thing here. Why ppl don't fly some of HACs?




What if they were designed around the idea that you are not supposed to have the whole tool set in a WH same as you don't haul a whole tool set when going in a forest which can make a swiss army knife a really awesome tool to have? At the end of they day, you want the same specialty power on your swiss army knife because somehow your forest is much easier to supply than current RL forest are. If you could not manage to have all the different T2 ships inside your hole, the T3 would start to make sense but changing WH so it become a place where swiss army knife are the best tool to ahve around even if they don't perform as good as specialised tool is a no go because the tears would be insane.

TLDR : CCP messed up WH design by making them "too easy" to supply so the idea of a swiss army knife is a no go. How much would people like T3 if there was no single way to have more than one ship per character outside of K-space?
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#104 - 2014-08-25 17:05:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.


Tengu doesn't overshadow the Falcon. Falcon can jam better, Tengu can tank more. Different uses.

Also implying the Eagle actually is passable as a ship. Lol. Medium gun snipers are almost all useless since ABCs were added. Eagle is being buffed in Hyperion, further reinforcing the fact that it's a poor ship to compare anything to.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2014-08-25 17:05:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.

BlasterEagle has the firepower of a blaster Moa.
Try again !
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2014-08-25 17:23:21 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.


Tengu doesn't overshadow the Falcon. Falcon can jam better, Tengu can tank more. Different uses.

Also implying the Eagle actually is passable as a ship. Lol. Medium gun snipers are almost all useless since ABCs were added. Eagle is being buffed in Hyperion, further reinforcing the fact that it's a poor ship to compare anything to.


The eagle is far outclassed by the tengu, hence why we use the tengu to do the eagles job. ECM wise the tengu is in the right place, it just needs its overpowered areas sorted out.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#107 - 2014-08-25 17:26:11 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Vaga [...] and Sac could use work.
Vagabond sucks as a fleet ship with logi but it's otherwise good. I don't know why people think the Sacrilege is underpowered, though. It has so much utility and tank for what it is, and has the right amount of damage for the range it gets.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#108 - 2014-08-25 17:27:32 UTC
Odithia wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.

BlasterEagle has the firepower of a blaster Moa.
Try again !


10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Thats a hell of a difference to a moa.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#109 - 2014-08-25 17:37:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.


Tengu doesn't overshadow the Falcon. Falcon can jam better, Tengu can tank more. Different uses.

Also implying the Eagle actually is passable as a ship. Lol. Medium gun snipers are almost all useless since ABCs were added. Eagle is being buffed in Hyperion, further reinforcing the fact that it's a poor ship to compare anything to.


The eagle is far outclassed by the tengu, hence why we use the tengu to do the eagles job. ECM wise the tengu is in the right place, it just needs its overpowered areas sorted out.


Goons are using Tengus now? So in what ways does the Tengu, one of four ships in the class that you're advocating for the nerf of, outclass the Eagle?

T3s aren't OP, there are just some subsystems that are; meanwhile most subsystems are too **** to use (again, I'm looking at you Tengu Power Core Multiplier).

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#110 - 2014-08-25 20:09:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Thats a hell of a difference to a moa.


But not different at all from Tengu Magnetic Infusion Basin. So "role" bonus is the same, the other 4 subsystems make the difference, and the other 4 are overpowered, some of them.

baltec1 wrote:
The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.


Above fit after rebalance ofc? You can't build blackbird/moa from current subsystems. Agree. This would be some fun "hybrid", but making whole fitting idea that way would make possibilty to create hybrids only, and some of them without use, because they would only be good when roles are mixed.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
What if they were designed around the idea that you are not supposed to have the whole tool set in a WH same as you don't haul a whole tool set when going in a forest which can make a swiss army knife a really awesome tool to have? At the end of they day, you want the same specialty power on your swiss army knife because somehow your forest is much easier to supply than current RL forest are. If you could not manage to have all the different T2 ships inside your hole, the T3 would start to make sense but changing WH so it become a place where swiss army knife are the best tool to ahve around even if they don't perform as good as specialised tool is a no go because the tears would be insane.


That's why i've asked how nerfing would affect Wh's both PvP and PvE. Swiss army knife with Mobile Depot would be great in W-space.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2014-08-25 20:11:29 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.


Tengu doesn't overshadow the Falcon. Falcon can jam better, Tengu can tank more. Different uses.

Also implying the Eagle actually is passable as a ship. Lol. Medium gun snipers are almost all useless since ABCs were added. Eagle is being buffed in Hyperion, further reinforcing the fact that it's a poor ship to compare anything to.


The eagle is far outclassed by the tengu, hence why we use the tengu to do the eagles job. ECM wise the tengu is in the right place, it just needs its overpowered areas sorted out.


Goons are using Tengus now? So in what ways does the Tengu, one of four ships in the class that you're advocating for the nerf of, outclass the Eagle?

T3s aren't OP, there are just some subsystems that are; meanwhile most subsystems are too **** to use (again, I'm looking at you Tengu Power Core Multiplier).


Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#112 - 2014-08-25 23:39:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The advantage would be the ability to fit blackbird like ECM with the firepower of a blaster moa. They would still be powerful cruisers but wouldn't overshadow T2 ships like the falcon or eagle.


Tengu doesn't overshadow the Falcon. Falcon can jam better, Tengu can tank more. Different uses.

Also implying the Eagle actually is passable as a ship. Lol. Medium gun snipers are almost all useless since ABCs were added. Eagle is being buffed in Hyperion, further reinforcing the fact that it's a poor ship to compare anything to.


The eagle is far outclassed by the tengu, hence why we use the tengu to do the eagles job. ECM wise the tengu is in the right place, it just needs its overpowered areas sorted out.


Goons are using Tengus now? So in what ways does the Tengu, one of four ships in the class that you're advocating for the nerf of, outclass the Eagle?

T3s aren't OP, there are just some subsystems that are; meanwhile most subsystems are too **** to use (again, I'm looking at you Tengu Power Core Multiplier).


Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser.


That's why you flew Drake, Maelstrom, and Megathron fleets, right? Roll

The Tengu needs good prop and engineering subs. There is only one good PVP sub for each, shoehorning the Tengu into a 100mn AB missile boat. As for the tank, I've said that the buffer subs should have a 5% bonus, not a 10% bonus. Paired with decent prop/engineering subs, the Tengu will be balanced.

That seems to be the only T3 you can complain about, so are we done yet?
And regardless, the decisions will be made by CCP. Let's just hope they do it right the first time, rather than half assing it like they did with HACs (we ended up with OP Ishtars and shitall useless Muninns).

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2014-08-26 00:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


That's why you flew Drake, Maelstrom, and Megathron fleets, right? Roll

The Tengu needs good prop and engineering subs. There is only one good PVP sub for each, shoehorning the Tengu into a 100mn AB missile boat. As for the tank, I've said that the buffer subs should have a 5% bonus, not a 10% bonus. Paired with decent prop/engineering subs, the Tengu will be balanced.

That seems to be the only T3 you can complain about, so are we done yet?
And regardless, the decisions will be made by CCP. Let's just hope they do it right the first time, rather than half assing it like they did with HACs (we ended up with OP Ishtars and shitall useless Muninns).


We retired drake fleet because the tengu is better at being a drake. The drake nerf was just the final nail in the coffin.

Loki, legion and tengu are better at being command ships than command ships. The Legion is better at being a Zealot than a Zealot. We use the web Loki and a point proteus over the dedicated t2 ships, the Legion is much better at being a pilgrim than the pilgrim.

There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#114 - 2014-08-26 00:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Abso and damnation are pretty nasty/useful in their respective roles, the problems with rapier/huginn, arazu, pilgrim, etc. are more of an issue with those ships than it is a problem with the t3s - they are badly in need of another balance pass.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2014-08-26 00:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Rroff wrote:
Abso and damnation are pretty nasty/useful in their respective roles, the problems with rapier/huginn, arazu, etc. are more of an issue with those ships than it is a problem with the t3s - they are badly in need of another balance pass, likewise the pilgrim which is quite terrible tank and mobility wise.


Its not a problem with those ships its that the T3 simply overshadow them. CCP rightly don't buff their way out of balance issues anymore as that will only lead to yet more balance issues. The pilgrim, hurginn and arazu are all good ships already, its T3 that need to be scaled back. Admittedly the command ships issue has a lot to do with off grid boosting.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#116 - 2014-08-26 02:06:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
While I agree that buffing out of a balance issue rarely makes sense I can't agree that recons or hacs are in any kind of good place i.e. stick a plate on a pilgrim and your mobility is almost into battleship territory which is hardly recon stuff, muninn and rapier overall don't seem to know what they are trying to be, huginn should probably go dedicated missiles in the line of cyclone, etc. I'd kind of like to see rapier viable as an arty platform though thats more of a personal thing as I like arty. (Not ignoring their actual roles just that there is a lot overall that tends to put people off them). Someone wrote a good post in the other thread about the issues with the eagle and so on. Suffice to say I don't think any changes to t3s should be measured against current t2 cruisers.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#117 - 2014-08-26 06:05:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time.


What issue? Nullifier without cloak would be useless in solo flying. In fleets it doesn't matter as you admited.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2014-08-26 10:24:59 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time.


What issue? Nullifier without cloak would be useless in solo flying. In fleets it doesn't matter as you admited.



being uncatchable is not an acceptable capability. No matter the price. Specially now that you can refit in space.

On my view the cloaky subsystem needs to go, replaced by some proper different offensive subsystem. (like an anti frigate focused one for each race).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2014-08-26 10:27:06 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Agreed. Change the Augmented Plating and Supplamental Screening subs to a 5% bonus, and all will be fine.

Then buff the 50-75% of subsystems that are so utterly **** I can't even remember their names. Like every Tengu subsystem that isn't the Afterburner one. (Please give the Tengu a practical MWD subsystem. And make the Powercore Multiplier give more powergrid after bonuses that Cap Regen Matrix, that's just ******** as it is.)



The eletronic subystems that are not the ewar ones are the oens in most dire need of help. Why would anyoen use a proteus without the disruptor range bonus or the loki without the web bonus?

If nothing else, the other subsystems need 1 extra mid slots and MORE fitting so that they can be remotely useful.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2014-08-26 10:41:47 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time.


What issue? Nullifier without cloak would be useless in solo flying. In fleets it doesn't matter as you admited.


You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets.

Having a ship that is uncatchable is never a good thing.