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Industry - why do people sell below cost?
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#41 - 2014-08-22 22:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Charax Bouclier wrote:
Makes sense, thanks.

Next market anomaly that I need to figure is why I occasionally see some of my goods sell above my sell price. Happened about three times today - buying a single item (not the whole lot) at a premium of what I was charging. I wonder if this is just rookie mistakes.
Basically someone tried to buy from another player, in the same station, who was charging a higher price than you. The market automagically supplies them with one of your items, if it's the lowest priced sell order, at a premium price.

Other people not having sell orders sorted by value often results in extra profit Big smile

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#42 - 2014-08-22 22:39:23 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Charax Bouclier wrote:


2. If I find something that sells well for a decent margin, but I can't keep up production, is the best course of action to fully research the BPO, makes copies and then use these multiple copies to run several manufacturing runs at the same time?


What I do is buy multiple BPOs. I have one in research and one in production. I rotate them until they are all at the research level needed.

Copies are for invention or sale and nothing else, in my opinion. They also are a waste of build slots. Take a capital cargo bay for example. The max runs you can have is 5 on a copy. But you might need 70 for a freighter. With a BPO you can do as many runs as you can fit into the 30 day limit. So one or two build slots with researched BPOs compared to 14 build slots with copies.

I haven't done much industry since the expansion so keep in mind that all I've said above could have changed completely. Someone will be quick to point it out if I have.

Mr Epeen Cool



If your production is limited by BPO ownership, copying for personal production can make sense.

You can get about 25% more throughput from your BPO if you copy it and build from the copies (at the cost of tying up a science slot as well as 1.25 production slots).

You can also react more quickly to market shifts if you have a bunch of copies on you. For instance, if Goons were to return to their Celestis doctrines of the past, owning one 10/20 Celestis BPO is not as good as owning dozens of BPCs for the same ship that can all be produced at once.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#43 - 2014-08-23 00:01:19 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


You can get about 25% more throughput from your BPO if you copy it and build from the copies (at the cost of tying up a science slot as well as 1.25 production slots).



That could work if you have your own POS.

Else you need to add the production loss of (the last time I copied) months to make the copies. I heard it's changed now, but there used to be a month minimum line in the copy queue in my system. I'll need to look into it some before I can give a better answer.

What i will say though, is that an empty lab slot is a wasted slot. So if you have one sitting idle go ahead and run copies. I'd just not put priority on copies over research. I mostly buy my copies anyway since it takes forever to copy freighter BPs for invention. And capitals are all I really build right now.


Mr Epeen Cool
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
#44 - 2014-08-23 00:45:03 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Charax Bouclier wrote:
Makes sense, thanks.

Next market anomaly that I need to figure is why I occasionally see some of my goods sell above my sell price. Happened about three times today - buying a single item (not the whole lot) at a premium of what I was charging. I wonder if this is just rookie mistakes.
Basically someone tried to buy from another player, in the same station, who was charging a higher price than you. The market automagically supplies them with one of your items, if it's the lowest priced sell order, at a premium price.

Other people not having sell orders sorted by value often results in extra profit Big smile


And here I was, trying to spite the .01 undercutters, by not buying from them...or so I thought.

Thanks for the info.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#45 - 2014-08-24 14:42:49 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Honestly, who cares why they do it.

All you need to know, op, is to buy up anything that is below build cost and sit on it until you have the skills to reprocess it efficiently. Or just flip it for instant profit.

Mr Epeen Cool


Not in a post-Crius world my friend.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#46 - 2014-08-25 01:17:22 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


You can get about 25% more throughput from your BPO if you copy it and build from the copies (at the cost of tying up a science slot as well as 1.25 production slots).



That could work if you have your own POS.

Else you need to add the production loss of (the last time I copied) months to make the copies. I heard it's changed now, but there used to be a month minimum line in the copy queue in my system. I'll need to look into it some before I can give a better answer.

What i will say though, is that an empty lab slot is a wasted slot. So if you have one sitting idle go ahead and run copies. I'd just not put priority on copies over research. I mostly buy my copies anyway since it takes forever to copy freighter BPs for invention. And capitals are all I really build right now.


Mr Epeen Cool



It has changed; copy time is almost always 20% faster than build time now.

I can, for example, make 200 runs worth of copies of a cruiser in about 16 days (non-POS) or 8 days (POS). Prior to Crius this would have taken 42 days (non-POS) and some waiting time as well.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#47 - 2014-08-25 06:22:58 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


It has changed; copy time is almost always 20% faster than build time now.

I can, for example, make 200 runs worth of copies of a cruiser in about 16 days (non-POS) or 8 days (POS). Prior to Crius this would have taken 42 days (non-POS) and some waiting time as well.


Yeah I was checking it out just today. Thought I'd run some copying in a few spare slots that opened up.

What a pleasant surprise.

Mr Epeen Cool
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2014-08-25 16:49:16 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


It has changed; copy time is almost always 20% faster than build time now.

I can, for example, make 200 runs worth of copies of a cruiser in about 16 days (non-POS) or 8 days (POS). Prior to Crius this would have taken 42 days (non-POS) and some waiting time as well.


Yeah I was checking it out just today. Thought I'd run some copying in a few spare slots that opened up.

What a pleasant surprise.

Mr Epeen Cool


yes definitely work from copies now, you can make copies faster than you can build items. It's what I do, that way if I have a large private order come in I can produce it as fast as possible. Its the difference between building 500k missiles with 1 bpo or building 500k missiles with up to 11 BPC's all running at the same time. I know which will get me to the goal first.
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-08-25 17:23:27 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Charax Bouclier wrote:
As a budding miner/industrialist (for now), I am kinda surprised when I see people dump goods on a market that is clearly below the market value of the component parts.

I understand my cost structure may be higher than others, but it still seems that certain goods are being sold below cost.

Why is this a thing? Are people just stupid? Are they hoping to drive out other players from certain markets and then raise prices? Is it just trying to dump finished goods since they haven't had luck selling it against marginal price discounters?

I've underlined the main reason, for some bizarre reason some people think that the minerals they mine are free, they fail to take into account the market value of those minerals, or the opportunity cost of gathering them.

Excellent question by the way.



I dump stuff in market without looking at prices. I make most of my ISK ratting in null/WHs, I use the more valuable drops, or give to alliance mates, and everything else I kind of blindly sell just to spend as little time in high sec as possible. Am I losing out on ISK, definitely, but I really don't spend more than 30 min or so docked in Jita before jumping back out of the area.

I spend my time pew-pewing for bounties, my alt grabs the loot, and the salvage is up to whomever in the corp wants it. That is my general plan.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#50 - 2014-08-25 23:51:41 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:


I dump stuff in market without looking at prices. I make most of my ISK ratting in null/WHs, I use the more valuable drops, or give to alliance mates, and everything else I kind of blindly sell just to spend as little time in high sec as possible. Am I losing out on ISK, definitely, but I really don't spend more than 30 min or so docked in Jita before jumping back out of the area.

I spend my time pew-pewing for bounties, my alt grabs the loot, and the salvage is up to whomever in the corp wants it. That is my general plan.


This is why I have region-wide buy orders for some of the more valuable rat drops. Still rat drops are always (or at least almost always) not things that players can produce.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Charax Bouclier
Silvershield Universal
#51 - 2014-08-26 15:52:25 UTC
Just another industry question - I realize now that I am wasting too much time micromanaging my industrial output. By that, I mean I am running jobs for 24 hours, throwing the product up, and then start up new jobs for the next day. I'm thinking that maybe I should just set up jobs for a week duration and then just deal with it once a week as opposed to seven times a week. Time is money after all.

Curious how the vet industrialists manage their runs so that it doesn't eat too much of their time.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#52 - 2014-08-26 16:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Charax Bouclier wrote:
As a budding miner/industrialist (for now), I am kinda surprised when I see people dump goods on a market that is clearly below the market value of the component parts.

I understand my cost structure may be higher than others, but it still seems that certain goods are being sold below cost.

Why is this a thing? Are people just stupid? Are they hoping to drive out other players from certain markets and then raise prices? Is it just trying to dump finished goods since they haven't had luck selling it against marginal price discounters?

I've underlined the main reason, for some bizarre reason some people think that the minerals they mine are free, they fail to take into account the market value of those minerals, or the opportunity cost of gathering them.

Excellent question by the way.



I dump stuff in market without looking at prices. I make most of my ISK ratting in null/WHs, I use the more valuable drops, or give to alliance mates, and everything else I kind of blindly sell just to spend as little time in high sec as possible. Am I losing out on ISK, definitely, but I really don't spend more than 30 min or so docked in Jita before jumping back out of the area.

I spend my time pew-pewing for bounties, my alt grabs the loot, and the salvage is up to whomever in the corp wants it. That is my general plan.
For loot that's a totally legit way to do it, me? I buy up the loot that people such as yourself dump on the market, and reprocess it, even post industry changes some of the meta items still reprocess for 3 or 4 times what I pay for them.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Mari Hata
Main Street Crafts and Goods
#53 - 2014-08-26 22:37:43 UTC
Charax Bouclier wrote:
Just another industry question - I realize now that I am wasting too much time micromanaging my industrial output. By that, I mean I am running jobs for 24 hours, throwing the product up, and then start up new jobs for the next day. I'm thinking that maybe I should just set up jobs for a week duration and then just deal with it once a week as opposed to seven times a week. Time is money after all.

Curious how the vet industrialists manage their runs so that it doesn't eat too much of their time.


Time is money indeed, but when you'll have a pile of 570 rifters in your hangar waiting to be sold on the markets, well, consider that to be money as well. ;)

Be aware you will create huge stockpiles. They'll immobilize your capital. You'll have no monies for minnies, and you'll eventually want to dump your stock faster than the market can absorb it, and drive prices down.

I'd say, try 3 days long prod lines and see how you stock up.

♫ ♪ ♪
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#54 - 2014-08-27 01:13:31 UTC
Mari Hata wrote:
Charax Bouclier wrote:
Just another industry question - I realize now that I am wasting too much time micromanaging my industrial output. By that, I mean I am running jobs for 24 hours, throwing the product up, and then start up new jobs for the next day. I'm thinking that maybe I should just set up jobs for a week duration and then just deal with it once a week as opposed to seven times a week. Time is money after all.

Curious how the vet industrialists manage their runs so that it doesn't eat too much of their time.


Time is money indeed, but when you'll have a pile of 570 rifters in your hangar waiting to be sold on the markets, well, consider that to be money as well. ;)

Be aware you will create huge stockpiles. They'll immobilize your capital. You'll have no monies for minnies, and you'll eventually want to dump your stock faster than the market can absorb it, and drive prices down.

I'd say, try 3 days long prod lines and see how you stock up.



Try never to have more than 20% of your capital tied up in a specific product unless you are market speculating.

Also, try never to have more than 20% of what sells in a week in your stockpile. (It's unlikely that you'll get more than 20% of the week's sales due to undercutting).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Kaius Fero
#55 - 2014-08-27 16:08:35 UTC
Actually, it's all about playing the trade bots.

Say.. you wanna buy a very large stock of "stuff" but don't have time for 0.01 isk war with buy orders. Then sell 1 piece of "stuff" and sell it cheap. In just minutes the market bots will react and try to undercut you, eventually the whole market will crash in just minutes. Did this many times, works like a charm. Also, this method works with the buy orders too when you wanna unload stuff but the buy order prices are too low. This game is literally infested with bots...

Anselmo & The Illegals
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#56 - 2014-08-27 23:27:19 UTC
Kaius Fero wrote:
Actually, it's all about playing the trade bots.

Say.. you wanna buy a very large stock of "stuff" but don't have time for 0.01 isk war with buy orders. Then sell 1 piece of "stuff" and sell it cheap. In just minutes the market bots will react and try to undercut you, eventually the whole market will crash in just minutes. Did this many times, works like a charm. Also, this method works with the buy orders too when you wanna unload stuff but the buy order prices are too low. This game is literally infested with bots...



I have not detected any evidence of trade bots in Dodixie on the items that would most attract them (huge volume items).

0.01 ISKing bots make different errors to those made by humans. I've detected a lot of the mistakes humans make, and none that are best explained by bots.

I know *very* good ways to steal billions from anyone using a trade bot and have tried them with no success (other than the odd small quantity that is readily explained by it being a human seeking a quick sale).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-08-28 04:50:31 UTC
I know of two scenarios where it makes sense to sell below production costs:

a) You obtain the item for less than production costs. Placing buy orders for T1 Frigates and destroyers at schools where they given for free for example.

b) Where haulage and tax is an issue. For example pretty much every P4 product on the market sells for less than the P1/P2 components plus tax needed to make it. Buying P2s and making P4s on a factory planet near Jita for example is likely to run at a loss. However if you are producing the stuff in a WH or deep in low or null the P4s are a lot easy (and hence safer) to move. Taking a slight loss on the P2 -> P4 step can often be more than offset by the haulage saved.
Kaius Fero
#58 - 2014-08-28 06:49:54 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Kaius Fero wrote:
Actually, it's all about playing the trade bots.

Say.. you wanna buy a very large stock of "stuff" but don't have time for 0.01 isk war with buy orders. Then sell 1 piece of "stuff" and sell it cheap. In just minutes the market bots will react and try to undercut you, eventually the whole market will crash in just minutes. Did this many times, works like a charm. Also, this method works with the buy orders too when you wanna unload stuff but the buy order prices are too low. This game is literally infested with bots...



I have not detected any evidence of trade bots in Dodixie on the items that would most attract them (huge volume items).

0.01 ISKing bots make different errors to those made by humans. I've detected a lot of the mistakes humans make, and none that are best explained by bots.

I know *very* good ways to steal billions from anyone using a trade bot and have tried them with no success (other than the odd small quantity that is readily explained by it being a human seeking a quick sale).

You should try Jita then, the homeland of bots and drones. Bots behaviour are not the same as you can set them to act in different ways. Most of them are set to undercut with 0.01 isk, others will cut with millions and ofc .. there are script glitches where the humans can totally confuse the bots ;)

I'm not saying this is an easy game and everybody on the market is a bot, ofc there are also the market gankers, those whom try to manipulate the market etc. Market pvp & pvb is maybe the hardest battle in this game.

Anselmo & The Illegals
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