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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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improving PvE
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ViciousCycle
Dark One Inc.
#1 - 2014-08-23 18:45:44 UTC
after over 10 years ingame, PvE is still, imho, far too static. It is all too easy to read Eve-Survival or other sources to determine exactly what opposition the player will face -- and thus what ship and setup to use.

This rather quickly becomes boring; which isn't conducive to retaining paying players.


Suggestion: Revise the artificial AI significantly. A much wider variety of opposition needs to be presented, esp. in the second and following waves or rooms -- assume that the npc opponent is learning and dynamically adjusting the number, type, and fitting of ships sent to deal with the player. This might be based on any number of factors -- type and number of player ships present, length of time to complete existing wave, random draw, etc.

Tactics might also be changed --npcs that simply chase and blast away are much too simple. Give some thought to how a mixed gang of such ships should behave ... tacklers accelerate quickly but do not out run their support -- players who stray too far out are ignored until they return and the npc gang reforms while they do, etc.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-08-23 19:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
CCP have already started looking at this with the new burner missions. In keeping with the new shorter release cycle they should (I hope) be incrementally introducing newer and more challenging missions and PvE content over time alongside the more PvP related changes.

I'm always in agreement with balanced development between the PvP and PvE aspects of the game, however the idea has been raised many times before and it may have been better to add this idea to one of the existing threads to avoid people screaming 'LOCK ME! LOCK ME!'.

Examples:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4908346#post4908346
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4907991#post4907991
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4891806#post4891806
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3 - 2014-08-23 19:34:17 UTC
Eve isn't a pve game, and while I honestly see your point (reformed carebear here), I don't feel it's a priority, waaaaay too much other stuff to fix first.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-08-23 19:43:22 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Eve isn't a pve game, and while I honestly see your point (reformed carebear here), I don't feel it's a priority, waaaaay too much other stuff to fix first.


I have to disagree to an extent (Not that it isn't PvE, every action is PvP other than not undocking and not doing anything ever). I do see it as an equal priority since many more people choose to live in hisec as they don't want to play losec/null games.

However...

I see the priority for hisec 'PvE' development to be changes that involve players more, draw them further into the game, entice them to try different areas of space or gameplay. This in itself would stand much better chance of retaining new players and also showing them the rest of Eve that is available to them beyond agents and BS's.

In fact in those terms I could argue that improving 'PvE' in such a way is more important than purely PvP changes as it is most likely the first thing newer players will do (missions, mining etc), and should draw them further into the other areas (Industry, FW, trading and of course PvP combat).
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-08-23 20:00:46 UTC
From what I've heard, the biggest problem is updating the AI to allow them to make rats more challenging. Also heard they are "working on it". No, I don't have citations.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-08-23 20:20:28 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Eve isn't a pve game,....



You must be new to this game, or had your head stuck in the sand for a long time.

Eve has been both PVE and PVP since the first day they added anything controlled by AI, which was launch IIRC.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7 - 2014-08-23 20:44:12 UTC
As much as PvE shouldn't be a priority, it is a significant source of income. Many, many PvPers use PvE to fund their preferred activity. As such, it's only reasonable that PvE should be a bit more engaging and worthwhile.

Yes, I know the ones who like to multibox AFK-mission Domis in another window while trade-scamming in Jita or low/null roaming on their mains will disagree with me, but ... death to ISBotter and people who are "AFK-playing" (the scenario I described counts) don't deserve opinions.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#8 - 2014-08-23 23:09:57 UTC
It doesn't matter what changes to the AI you make in terms of spawn. After anything is run enough times for PVE content, someone will just update the guide to include If this happens, do this.

By the same token, because I can write a guide on how to listen to an FC and how to broadcast when you get yellowboxed, does this mean PVP needs to get revamped as well?

I'm not saying that PVE does not to get revamped, because introducing new PVE content is always welcome because it expands on what you can do in the game. But your argument on why it needs to get revamped is bad.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2014-08-24 01:30:44 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
It doesn't matter what changes to the AI you make in terms of spawn. After anything is run enough times for PVE content, someone will just update the guide to include If this happens, do this.

By the same token, because I can write a guide on how to listen to an FC and how to broadcast when you get yellowboxed, does this mean PVP needs to get revamped as well?

I'm not saying that PVE does not to get revamped, because introducing new PVE content is always welcome because it expands on what you can do in the game. But your argument on why it needs to get revamped is bad.

That's not actually true. If you create a dynamic enough environment you no longer can script individual missions. Because there are no individual missions. What you are describing are pick a path adventures where you get to take path A, B or C, I.E. Worlds Collide for example. But where each path is entirely scripted. Rather than Dynamic Generation.

You can still create a guide describing common PvE scenarios, pitfalls and how to counter some of the nastier events. As well as ship fittings & choices that are generally good at dealing with most of the events that will happen.

But it is possible to create a PvE system where Eve Survival becomes useless because there are no longer individual missions to script.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#10 - 2014-08-24 01:36:38 UTC
They are trying, with the Burner missions. But in doing so, of course, they have already stumbled into the pitfall of any PvE activity.

People already know how to beat them, 100% of the time effectively.

They're not even out yet, and they've already been trivialized.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#11 - 2014-08-24 02:24:13 UTC
The content seems fine relative to others games. Any other games with 10 years of playing has the same end. In pvp as one person gets better so do others. Eve is about the journey, learning and being entertained. Some people appreciate the script. Teaching others and interactively helping others can be rewarding also. PvE allows a team training and practice teamwork that can be fun in itself. Eve allows change of roles too. If you been flying solo for 10 years then the options might be more limited.

Is that my two cents or yours?
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-08-24 04:28:50 UTC
EVE's PvE system is bound to be responsible for driving a lot of new players away. People may criticize other MMOs (or frankly, other MMO) for Fedex quests, but they could wipe the floor with EVE when it comes to PVE.

PVE in EVE is a boring grind which only encourages group play at the highest level. Hopefully these new missions will help to alleviate that.
Claud Tiberius
#13 - 2014-08-24 04:35:24 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Eve isn't a pve game, and while I honestly see your point (reformed carebear here), I don't feel it's a priority, waaaaay too much other stuff to fix first.

Shocked Do you even play eve?

There is pve everywhere.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-08-24 05:09:00 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Eve isn't a pve game, and while I honestly see your point (reformed carebear here), I don't feel it's a priority, waaaaay too much other stuff to fix first.


Why? The so called, PvPers already have station spinning because they recruit all their competition.

What else do they need?

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#15 - 2014-08-24 05:21:39 UTC
Sentamon wrote:

What else do they need?


Pretty sure it's not even disputable that the POS code needs fixed well before "fix PvE because I'm bored shooting at red crosses!" comes onto the list.

Nevermind that there is a player oriented solution to someone's problem, if they are bored with PvE.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#16 - 2014-08-24 09:46:22 UTC
Jur Tissant wrote:
EVE's PvE system is bound to be responsible for driving a lot of new players away. People may criticize other MMOs (or frankly, other MMO) for Fedex quests, but they could wipe the floor with EVE when it comes to PVE.

PVE in EVE is a boring grind which only encourages group play at the highest level. Hopefully these new missions will help to alleviate that.

Actually, other MMO's have just as boring PvE, if not even more so. 'Fight the same boar, just coloured differently and 20 levels higher, oh, and we added a smoke effect'
It's a lack of imagination combined with players not liking it when PvE is actually random because it means when they are trying to level they get smacked down suddenly.
EVE however not having levels doesn't have to marry the same limitation, but when they first built it they thought inside the standard MMO box. hence every NPC being named differently and each name having a unique set of stats.
Pidgeon Saissore
Tyrant's
#17 - 2014-08-24 10:32:23 UTC
The beauty of this game is that there is no line between Pve and PvP. Even the perfect carebear with perfect intel and no intention of seeing another player must at the very least run and hide when that other player comes looking. All those cool PvP toys you all like so much all come from PvE, some more directly then others.

Each idea I have here should be discussed separately. Some will be impossible to implement and others will break certain boundaries but most should make the entire game more interesting.

The line should be blurred further. The new specific missions won't do a thing to this effect. A few things, just ideas at this point to that effect:
Put missions on gates instead of making fake mission gates.
Missions that involve pursuing a convoy traveling through stargates, mission fails if they reach the destination.
Make rats attack players wherever they are in system.
Increase the strength but reduce the number of all rats.
Any rat anywhere has the chance of using each type of ewar.
Make all rats try to run as their fleet is destroyed.
All sites have the chance of spontaneously becoming combat sites, not just belt rats but the full site in addition to whatever they already are.
Make the regional rat type gradually change.
In systems with a large number of rats killed per day all rats become stronger.
Make rats attack all structures, including starbases with escalating force with each successive defeat.
Make sec status of systems change with the number of rats or players killed. If that means switching between high low and null is up for debate but should definitely effect truesec.
Station camping rats.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-08-24 15:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They are trying, with the Burner missions. But in doing so, of course, they have already stumbled into the pitfall of any PvE activity.

People already know how to beat them, 100% of the time effectively.

They're not even out yet, and they've already been trivialized.



Like I always say...farmers gonna farm. It is here ccp will always have the problem. Generally harder ='s more payout.
As I am reading some burner reports, like you said, they have been cracked. Now its on players to work out the cost of fit to get the payouts over time. Lots of reports show some shinies, at this point. code cracked with shiney modded ships, next I see the code for doing it cheaper being broken.


I think ccp can appreciates the spirit of these ideas. Problem is while they can appreciate the spirit, they know the farmers will come out who aren't s much into the spirit as they are into the isk per hour. Want to write it off as we can't have nice things because of these people, well its all you can do really.


One could say well have the rats go off script. Humans can't even do this. Even in the microcosm that is AT we are getting few surprises. A few matches have caught some interest granted...still is drone city or text book cases of how to (mostly not) run tinkers.

Well that and my stance is pve is pve. It will always be the suck. MY son has an interest in spiderman atm. Saw marvel heroes 2014 was f2p.

And as I level sipdey up when kid done playing....I hit the same crap I have in any game. Polish up a turd as nice as you want, its just a polished turd. Pve to me in most games would be that turd. And marvel like many ties to dress up the pve. Its just I am a maybe jaded player of mmo's for over a decade. SSDD to me. I want to spice it up...I go for pvp in a mmo.

Not saying leave eve if fascinating pve the desire of a player but.....if this a desire I find the only place I have gotten this in single player games with a very strong modding community. Bethesda for example has to make a game not too hard, not too easy. To attract as many players as it can. Its then on the player to slap in that skyrim/fallout 3/fo:nv mod that cranks it up a few notches. The beauty of this is its player decided. Casual gamer can run core game and enjoy. The more hard core can stack the mods to make it as hard as they want.