Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'm sure i can manage operating at exactly the same speed i already am, compared to you who are suddenly vastly slower.



Yeah we cant stop you, but if you're the same speed as us, its a bit more balanced.



Cant alpha down fleets with your blob when you cant catch them as easily. Logi is a second rate problem to the strategic mobility.



Here. Try this. It might help you understand our point of view.

Go on steam(or any other place that has it) and dl the demo to "Sword of the Stars"
Its a slightly aged 4x game that will run on a toaster that even though it was released in... 2006 i think, still has a small yet active community (though many of us play the sequel, but theres no free demo for #2) Play around with it a few matchs, read the forums get a general feel for the game.

Then load up an 350 star 8 player match where all the players and ais are playing hiver. Try that for a bit, do a hamachi lan match have a couple other doughnut alliance members get in on the game.

Now about turn 180 of that match... thats the status of eve sov warfare.
Attacks are almost worthless to make because the enemy can get all of their forces anywhere they need to defend before you can ever manage.

(Yes blobbing up so that a tactical battle runs down the counter does work, but since your playing with other people, try doing a match where at any given time you never exceed 500 ships. (To emulate the limited number of players at your disposals in eve)

Now do it again later. But pick a different race, have all the players running humans, play it now and see how the fighting unfolds. (Dont go past the fusion era though, cause late game humans are the fastest race in the game. They had an interesting balance that game did)

This second game, without the instant response times, would be much more like eve without jump drives.

Congrats youve been here longer than i have.

I understand you can cover your sprawling empires even without jumping. But that means you are spread out. Together we stand divided we fall. Well you always stand together,because theres no reason for you to be divided, you can be anywhere when you need to be.

Wouldnt really hurt the little guy not having power projection, they likely wouldnt expand past a 4 jumps in any direction anyways.

And you have 2 days... to defend any target... you mean any 1 target. You need more time to defend more targets do you not? Especially if you need to defend them say, all on the same day? Yeah i know youve got your wrecking ball and all that jazz. Glancing around you mustered around 4000 ships from all the member groups earlier this year for that fight. Quite a feat.

Now lets say theres an uprising of ~ 500 players, bolstered by the news that cfc wont be listening to miley cirus this afternoon, and theyre stuck slowboating it just like you.
they prepare forces, and jump off from lowsec and attack 50 different systems... 10 players per system doesnt sound like much, but really how long does it take 5 dreads to reinforce an ihub. So now assuming you stomped out 3/4ths of thes little attempts and now your looking at 10 systems coming out of reinforcement that you have to deal with, amongst other attacks that may spring up.
That 4000 ships starting to get split up starts looking more like a bunch of 100 and 200 ship fleets to me, which arent 100% untouchable even with logi. We dont mind the loss of a few ships in the name of taking a few bites out the krispy creme. And as you start having to keep pilots on more and more often to stamp out these smaller insurrections (rather than just all hands on deck once or twice a year) your guys will start to get antsy, start burning out.

Just fly into some systems and get them reinforced, they spend an hour or 2 moving ships around for the defense in a couple days. A defense against an attack that may never come. I know we all hate chasing shadows man.



But hey try out the sots game, you might get a better feel for what im saying rather then getting all red in the face because you realize that someone elses argument could possibly have some validity. Heck if you practice a bit yourself, a couple guys and i are gonna have a match next weekend, we could send you the server info and show you first hand what i mean about the status of power projected sov.

To get a claim to get farm meadow. Be ready for fight to get iHUB bash.

Surprise! That's finish in stagnation and blue circle around empire.

May be the goals itself is wrong?

And this is why activity based sov won't do anything.

Because if you can blink a fleet across the map and wipe out everyone that came to farm a meadow because they didn't pay you rent, it matters very little how many systems you stamp your actual name on. They're still effectively ALL yours.

The goals itself are wrong.

Moon mining was another pandoras box moment. That needs to either go, or just dry up after 15 days and respawn, replace with belts, or both. If there is significant market impact due to the supply side change, you balance on the side of production equations.

Give people a reason to get get out in ships again, not just drop towers and do structure grinds.
The siphon is a great idea, but I'd rather blops attack a fleet of bloc/renter miners trying to get their dyspro in a belt and then run home with it all in our blockade runners.

Your just screaming into the wind. Response times would be slowed,

this is not a matter of opinion or belief. It's the very specific mechanic we are discussing. You just don't want to acknowledge it.




I'm not even sure you understand why you have friends or why blobs exist.

Even within alliances themselves people have reasons they are members. I think you take membership to a group for granted (again, not surprising).

The only reason a group is formed (and the only way it can survive) is mutual benefit. Common defense, value/money making, that type of thing. Right?

When you slow response times and change mechanics so that one offense makes you vulnerable,
or to say, when leaving your home past a certain point makes you vulnerable to counter attack without immediate response

you will find your friends and other alliances that are so quick to spread out in this undefeatable coalition might not be so quick to help you all the time. Someone will eventually capitalize on it and stab the other in the back for profit.

It's called PVP. And it's what needs brought back to the organizations. People within an organization need both opportunity and incentive to stab their friends in the back. Changes to RR won't do that, and that mechanic didn't cause it to begin with.

You've gone out and proven my point for me, you just don't want to consider it.
You're right we need to remove the need to have massive sprawling empires.

That need isn't born out of the ability to amass a blob of motherships that can all RR themselves. It's born out of alliances being able to instantly respond to any threat to themselves, or any threat to the others.



You might find this surprising to hear, but many of us play eve today without depending on constant crutch of jump drives, bridges and needing to jump clone around the universe.

Some of us not only remember smaller more regionalized space and small gang warfare, we actually still live it. It's called low sec and it's 1000%x the game 0.0 is at the moment.

yes, it sounds like fun. it sounds like a blast.
It sounds exactly like a game I played once, one you allege you were also around to enjoy. One null has ever so slowly evolved away from into the complete BORE it is today.

We could all just stay blue forever. Sounds fun, right?

Not sure tweaking and balancing the mechanics behind power projection and sow holding will solve the issue. If the rules are changed a little, people will find ways to adapt. If the rules are changed too much (like limiting jump drives to adjacent systems only), lots of people will be disappointed and possibly stop playing.

I believe a good way to "fix nullsec" would be to make the current big sov holders use it or lose it. Have the pirates and Empires semi-randomly (based on standings and how much a system is being ratted) spawn invasions into player-held nullsec and conquer systems from player alliances if they are not defeated. Conquered systems would function like NPC nullsec except that they would be conquerable by player alliances. This would force the big coalitions to shed some low-value systems and hopefully allow some new alliances to make foothold in nullsec.

The only thing to drive players to unsub have been lack of development and microtransactions.

There is probably a more valid discussion in realizing appeasing 2k players that dont even know what is good for them and the game is killing the potential for many many more subs.

Besides, you could completely flip null on its head and null subs wouldnt bat an eye. Crackheads dont stop smoking when you change the flavor of the crack.

Activity based sov is a step in the right direction but will only invite renter crap. As long as you can magic around all 0.0 larger groups will own ALL the space, it makes little difference whos name is on a map.

You seem to be under the assumption that if you nerf power projection that we cannot protect our assets. Under the current mechanics we get two days to respond to a reinforcement timer and it is timed to come out at our strongest time. We can have our fleets mobilised and placed anywhere we need them in that time. Our responce time will be exactly the same as now.

We own half of null, this has everything to do with us because the goal is to stop us from being able to own half of null. Any changes made needs to literally be goon proof.


Nobody is saying that towers need to lose their reinforcement timers, they were given them for a very good reason.


It wont because towers aren't going to be losing the timers. Power projection nerfs achieve nothing other than making life in EVE yet more tedious.

Who says it has to be goon proof? You, not me.

Unlike you I'm not going to stand here and suggest something as rediculous as RR changes will make it so smaller groups can WIN. Eve doesn't and never will work like that. Goons will control precicely what they will based on their abilities, organization and playerbase. As they should.

You don't have anything to do with a balance discussion because there is no such thing as making the game "proof" of a group.

^^ This speaks entirely as to why you are incapable of seeing how to improve null. You can't think outside the box you live in. And my guess is, this is the failing in your suggestion for shaking up null. (RR nerf is removing any ability to stalemate against a larger force.)

You have no interest in fixing null mechanics, you just want it so one side can win.
I'm starting to think you can't even conceptualize the game in terms other than one side vs another.



And what good reason was that? And who ever said it was good? Time might be ruling against that one.

What if structures had nothing to do with attacking, defending and controlling space?
Hell, open the stations and just make them large tax-free zones with infinite science and industry slots.
Move moon mins to belts. Get rid of bubbles, who cares, ANYTHING to shake it up.

Try thinking beyond "hurr tower bash" "hurr poco bash"



Tedious for who? There is literally nothing more tedious than the current state of null.

My idea is to promote regionalization of space. (it existed before and can again)

Now, I'm sure your alliance would be capable of spreading it's butter evenly across the bread to defend it all. Good for them, not part of the discussion.

But it should be pain in the ass to move thousands from one side of your empire to the other in a blink if you want to commit your forces. No large group can ever be vulnerable ever if there is no distance or actual travel to be a barrier between one side of space and the other.

"You want to make eve less fun" lol. Listen to yourself.
Do you know how many times I've heard this unsubtatiated opinion? Even more fun, take a guess at who I hear it from.

We've spent years with CCP developing null by the suggestions of those that wish to control it, not fix it.

The only people enjoying the space now is people staring at maps and counting their isk, it's as dead as a gameplay can get. I could really give a rats ass about the absolute miniscule minority that's etched out the stalemate that is null today thinking the game might not be as fun if they can't hop around all of null on a whim with dozens of supercaps and thousands of ships. And I think the massive majority of the server population would probably agree.

Once we have a regionalization and distance actually means something, there are countless ways to improve that space to make it sustainable for large groups.

I'm interested in watching this game, watching null, thrive. The capacity for population in null could be far beyond what it is today, but it will never be with our current mechanics. "activity based sov" for what? No one will be permitted to stay that doesn't pay rent to a bloc anyways, bam, dead in the water. You'll be fishing for bot corps and suckers like you do now.

You have to think beyond the status quo if you expect to improve beyond it. And you just don't seem to be capable of that.
Even worse, you may not even want to.
You wouldn't be the first person to choose to rule in hell vs serving in heaven.
or... To rule over a stagnant boring eve is probably appealing vs learning to compete again in a very different and vibrant one.