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Easy ECM Rebalance - Chance of Failure when "Perma-jamming"
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Major Kim
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#21 - 2011-12-09 19:50:32 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Solution: Remove chance from the functionality, bringing it more in line with other EWARs. Chance should never really have been a factor in a game like EVE in the first place.

For example, have it break lock on activation, and increase scan resolution for duration. Do not prevent re-locking. Adjust cycle time and ship bonuses so that only certain ships (blackbird etc) can perma jam a target. Ideally, one bonused ewar platform would have to choose between locking down a single target, or disrupting multiple targets. Perhaps not the best idea, but better then the current function imo.




I think you mean reduce scan res, and If this were to take effect you would have to drop the cycle time by 50% so that the falcon/rook don't just become cannon fodder, this although a better idea than the OP is still a broken idea.

Again, only certain ships can "PermaJam" targets, and even still, there are more and more standard ships that have a higher sensor strength than these (overheated) Recon's, on top of that, My counter argument is still, why should a galente recon able to do enhanced targeting range reduction while, you introduce another nerf for ECM.
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-12-09 19:55:34 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
mnybag1 wrote:
There is never 100% chance of success. Each module acts on its own so there is always a certain percent chance of success: when you stack them, you are just pulling the probability in your favor towards 100, but the forumlas never let you hit 100%. ECM does completely shut you down (unless you have drones...) but it also is the only one with a chance of not working at all. A damper will always dampen as long as you are in range.



Whaaaaaaaaaaaat? Someone that understands how ECM works?

Why I never....



http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ECM#ECM


The chance of one module to jam one ship on one cycle is p = ECM strength / ship sensor strength. (For the ECM module the strength against that ship's racial sensor type is used.) Hence, the probability that the jam fails is 1-p, the probability that at N jammers all fail is (1-p)^N, and so the the probability that at least one jammer succeeds is 1-(1-p)^N, assuming each jammer is of similar type. (The formula for different strengths of jammers is left as exercise.)


ECM Strenth = 12
Ship Sensor = 12

p = 12 / 12
p = 1

1-p = 0 = 0% chance of failure.


Dur.



The only ships that get to that level of strength are recons and Scorps (and widow but not as widely used). The scorp with a MWD is slower than a frig with even just an AB, so you can burn out of range and get away from the scorps drones and either warp away or come back in while your friends make shrot work of the semi-glass scorp. Recons work much the same way only are even more glass.

TLDR, while there are some cases where someone can be effectively locked, in those same cases, the ECM ship can be effectively killed easily.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#23 - 2011-12-09 20:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
There are other situations such as against frigates or cruisers which those ships get far too much advantage and shouldn't be able to have 0% chance of failure.


Introducing a small chance of failure would be valuable for those ships.

Stating that simply because all ships do not suffer from this problem doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.


Smaller ships especially deserve a chance to get a chance to lock even from specialized ECM ships - this is not a function of the ISK value of a ship permitting dominance over a ship with less ISK value - it's a function of a game mechanic requiring the chance for ships to operate on the field.

Where I am.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#24 - 2011-12-09 20:22:29 UTC
If your sensor strength is 12, you deserve to be jammed.
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-12-09 20:25:49 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
There are other situations such as against frigates or cruisers which those ships get far too much advantage and shouldn't be able to have 0% chance of failure.


Introducing a small chance of failure would be valuable for those ships.

Stating that simply because all ships do not suffer from this problem doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.


Smaller ships especially deserve a chance to get a chance to lock even from specialized ECM ships - this is not a function of the ISK value of a ship permitting dominance over a ship with less ISK value - it's a function of a game mechanic requiring the chance for ships to operate on the field.


The mechanic works perfectly fine as is. In the cases of recons and scorpians, their ONLY tank is the ECM. maybe a Nuet if the pilot feels like it. If you make it so that these ships cannot do what they are currently designed to then they lose their only tank and become useless. Just because frigates are the only ones affected (cruisers are only if the module is overheated, then all you have to do is orbit and outlast his mods to kill him), does not mean there IS a problem and they should get special treatment.
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2011-12-09 20:28:34 UTC
Also, maybe we should get rid of nuets then too? cause if you're sucked dry, you cant fire off your warp scram or prop mod? Heavens the tragedy.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#27 - 2011-12-09 20:41:01 UTC


a 5% chance to resist 100% chance of ECM resists... the tragedy indeed.

OMG TOTAL NERF OF ECM.

Lol

Get over yourselves. It's about keeping things sensible. With a 15% chance of jamming you get way too much jamming as it is. Over 50% jamming and that means that out of a 120 second engagement you can only act for 60 seconds average.

That means you lose half your DPS, half your logistics repair.


Sensor damps work best at range, when you're not getting warp scrammed - if you're getting damped, you get a warp in point on your targets and you warp to them and then the sensor damps mean nothing. Tracking disruption is the same thing - despite the nature of their effect, they can be countered with smart piloting and action regardless of modules.

ECM shouldn't have a 100% chance of success against any ships in the game.

Where I am.
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-12-09 21:03:02 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


a 5% chance to resist 100% chance of ECM resists... the tragedy indeed.

OMG TOTAL NERF OF ECM.

Lol

Get over yourselves. It's about keeping things sensible. With a 15% chance of jamming you get way too much jamming as it is. Over 50% jamming and that means that out of a 120 second engagement you can only act for 60 seconds average.

That means you lose half your DPS, half your logistics repair.


Sensor damps work best at range, when you're not getting warp scrammed - if you're getting damped, you get a warp in point on your targets and you warp to them and then the sensor damps mean nothing. Tracking disruption is the same thing - despite the nature of their effect, they can be countered with smart piloting and action regardless of modules.

ECM shouldn't have a 100% chance of success against any ships in the game.



I was merely pointing out that your argument a ship not being able to operate on the field can be applied to other modules as well.

If the jamming is 50% effective (because youre closer/further than optimal +/- a fallout,) then those 20 secs in a cruiser can be used to lock me and do 12-15 secs of dps.

In regards to the other ewar, if youre at that range, its probably for good reason: you are at your optimal. So by them using that mod on you, they are hurting your DPS as well. It is kind of the point of EWAR. Furthermore, as I have said, the only ship capable of being jammed 100% is the frigate, which has no business trying to take on a ECM or any EWAR cruiser or BS boat solo in the first place, or if it really wanted to, it should have brought an ECCM.
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#29 - 2011-12-09 21:45:40 UTC
Again... One and only EWAR for Caldari. It's meant to be powerful (when it works) and is pretty much the one and only reason to fear them (with sniper combat being broken at this time). ECM doesn't kill or damage you - warp out and come back. Not winning a fight isn't the same as losing a fight.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-12-09 21:48:04 UTC
Let's not forget that while tracking disruptors, sensor dampers and target painters are mostly on armor tanking ships that use lows for their tank, ecm is typically on shield tanked ships that need to compromise their tank severely for the mythical permajam. Whille one tracking disruptor , sensor damper or target painter can work on any ship you come across, ecm modules are race specific, you need 1 or more of 4 differnt types of jammers on a ship dedicated to jamming, so they have basically no tank. ECM is fine. Its powerful but at a cost, and as stated it is counterable if you want to fit for it, trust me you won't need as many eccm modules as a jammer has jamming modules to counter him.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#31 - 2011-12-09 21:58:17 UTC


Roll


I'm Surrounded...


ECM Ships can be tanked, you just stick a 1600MM plate on them. Pretty common tactic.

Where I am.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-12-09 21:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
The crucial difference between ECM and other EWar are stacking penalties. Damps, painters, and TDs all have stacking penalties that prevent them from scaling indefinitely, but ECM users can just keep piling on jammer after jammer, knowing that every additional ECM module will help keep the target locked down.

Either all EWar should have stacking penalties, or none. Change that, and EWar might become balanced again.


I don't have a problem with stacking penalties if 1 ecm module works for any racial ship, and I'm not talking about the multiracials I'm talking about a module with the racial jammer strength aganst any racial ship, h3ll I could have a tank then.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#33 - 2011-12-09 21:59:18 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
If your sensor strength is 12, you deserve to be jammed.
If only there were modules in the game, to increased the strength.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-12-09 22:05:23 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


Roll


I'm Surrounded...


ECM Ships can be tanked, you just stick a 1600MM plate on them. Pretty common tactic.



Thats done on the scorpions, which almost nobody uses because a 1600mm plate just isn't much of a tank and the recons or electronic attack ships perform better as jammers.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#35 - 2011-12-10 16:11:55 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/MEwzM.jpg - this is how many it takes to 100% jam a falcon with a falcon with max skills 15 jammers... 14 jammers gives 99.9%

each jammer has 11.25 Grav strenght x 15 = 168.75 str... vs the 28 str the falcon has...

:) so stop saying 100% perma jamming, because it actually takes alot more than 1 falcon normally carries to perma jam a ship, (but the chance is still very very high)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#36 - 2011-12-10 18:59:59 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
this is how many it takes to 100% jam a falcon with a falcon with max skills 15 jammers... 14 jammers gives 99.9%

each jammer has 11.25 Grav strenght x 15 = 168.75 str... vs the 28 str the falcon has...

ECM doesn't stack! Each module is a chance roll of its jamming strength against the target's sensor strength. If you have a jam strength of 11.25 and your target's sensor strength is 28 like in your example, you have a 40.17% chance of a successful jam with every attempt. More modules = more chances to try your luck. Since this is under 50%, I hope you're lucky.
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