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SOLO pvp? DUELS the real way
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Bengal Pride
Bad Neighbors
#1 - 2014-08-22 02:59:19 UTC
Everyone duels in jita, never fair, theres always an alt passive scanning you checking your fitting, OR undocks crazy logi to make the fight imposible...

Why cant a dual be LIKE:

- Please undock
- (Menu) Choose Ship Class
- T1 or T2 Fittings
- Max battle time
- Wager Range (****, to *****) or none.


- (Menu) Please Wait
- "Sorry cannot be in fleet to request a Duel"
- Match Found, warping in 10 sec (Warning, in case battle does not end in ?:00 both will end up back in ????? station)

- Match maker warps both players to random spot in solar system
- Both warp within 10km? 20? whatever
-100km bubble, u leave it ur instapoped or DQ'ed like in alliance tourney.

Basically fun, easy way to pvp regardless of what corp, faction, w/e your deal is, with NO hidden strings.
Abyssum Invocat
Yet Another Tax Haven
#2 - 2014-08-22 03:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Abyssum Invocat
This seems like a recipe to opt out of the sandbox. What makes eve PVP great? It's everything. Fights develop organically right now, and drama erupts. There's fear, doubt, and suspicion. People lie and cheat. PVP without the sandbox elements is lacking. The fundamentals are the same, but all those little extras that make it special are gone. I oppose it because people will do it. I don't want to play in the sandbox alone.
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-22 04:17:41 UTC
Get out of highsec. Neutral logi out of highsec means it's fair game. Unless you can't tank sentries. Unless you want PVP fights to become consensual ship shooting in the missionary position with the sole purpose of making wrecks.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Varukka Sault
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#4 - 2014-08-22 07:39:02 UTC
Because this isn't world of Warcraft. And the finer things in life cannot be found through instant gratification. Sometimes you have to work for/earn them.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#5 - 2014-08-22 15:38:39 UTC
Varukka Sault wrote:
And the finer things in life cannot be found through instant gratification.


Said no crackhead - ever. Shocked


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#6 - 2014-08-22 15:42:06 UTC
While in reality I agree with the previous posters, I can see the need or desire to test out and get comfortable with ships, new fits, etc before you go out and risk them in blind battle. I mean, even a fit you've eft'd and theorycrafted, etc, isn't really "primed" if you havent fought with it and learned how exactly it handles, what it's strong and what it's weak against, and why. This is where a corp with other people who like to PVP comes in. You can have the kind of "duels" you're talking about with your corpmates anywhere in hisec, any time.

I

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Abyssum Invocat
Yet Another Tax Haven
#7 - 2014-08-22 15:43:42 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
While in reality I agree with the previous posters, I can see the need or desire to test out and get comfortable with ships, new fits, etc before you go out and risk them in blind battle. I mean, even a fit you've eft'd and theorycrafted, etc, isn't really "primed" if you havent fought with it and learned how exactly it handles, what it's strong and what it's weak against, and why. This is where a corp with other people who like to PVP comes in. You can have the kind of "duels" you're talking about with your corpmates anywhere in hisec, any time.

I

The test server is also a good way to try things out.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#8 - 2014-08-22 16:56:07 UTC
if you find yourself in a fair fight in eve, ye both ****ed up.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2014-08-22 17:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
While in reality I agree with the previous posters, I can see the need or desire to test out and get comfortable with ships, new fits, etc before you go out and risk them in blind battle. I mean, even a fit you've eft'd and theorycrafted, etc, isn't really "primed" if you havent fought with it and learned how exactly it handles, what it's strong and what it's weak against, and why. This is where a corp with other people who like to PVP comes in. You can have the kind of "duels" you're talking about with your corpmates anywhere in hisec, any time.

I

The problem is that duels do not teach you much about "wild PvP."


In a true 1v1 dueling scenario you only have to worry about a few things...

- can you outtank your opponent? (which usually involves an active tank)
- can you dictate range? (web, scram, etc)
- can you break your opponents tank? (which usually means you have high dps or a neut)


In "wild PvP" there are a number of factors you have to take into account...

- can you outtank your opponent? (sometimes having a buffer tank will outlast an active tank)
- are you faster or more mobile than your opponent? (for outrunning them and/or running them down)
- can you dictate range?
- can you break you opponent's tank?
- does your opponent have friends that are inbound?
- is there a 3rd party that is in the area? Will they be more likely to shoot you or your opponent?
- is there a camp at the gate? Does it involve smartbombs? Do you have tactical safespots at the gates?
- can you pull my opponent(s) apart using range/kiting tactics?
- can you take that ship over there? The one that is vastly larger/smaller than you.
- is it a trap?
- is Pandemic Legion or (insert 0.0 entity here) in the area?
- will killing your opponent deal more economic damage to him/her than dying will for to you?

How did you Veterans start?
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#10 - 2014-08-22 17:40:59 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
While in reality I agree with the previous posters, I can see the need or desire to test out and get comfortable with ships, new fits, etc before you go out and risk them in blind battle. I mean, even a fit you've eft'd and theorycrafted, etc, isn't really "primed" if you havent fought with it and learned how exactly it handles, what it's strong and what it's weak against, and why. This is where a corp with other people who like to PVP comes in. You can have the kind of "duels" you're talking about with your corpmates anywhere in hisec, any time.

I

The problem is that duels do not teach you much about "wild PvP."


In a true 1v1 dueling scenario you only have to worry about a few things...

- can you outtank your opponent? (which usually involves an active tank)
- can you dictate range? (web, scram, etc)
- can you break your opponents tank? (which usually means you have high dps or a neut)


In "wild PvP" there are a number of factors you have to take into account...

- can you outtank your opponent? (sometimes having a buffer tank will outlast an active tank)
- are you faster or more mobile than your opponent? (for outrunning them and/or running them down)
- can you dictate range?
- can you break you opponent's tank?
- does your opponent have friends that are inbound?
- is there a 3rd party that is in the area? Will they be more likely to shoot you or your opponent?
- is there a camp at the gate? Does it involve smartbombs? Do I have tactical safespots at the gates?
- can I pull my opponent(s) apart using range/kiting tactics?
- can you take that ship over there? The one that is vastly larger/smaller than you.
- is it a trap?
- is Pandemic Legion or (insert 0.0 entity here) in the area?
- will killing your opponent deal more economic damage to him/her than dying will for to you?


Oh, I agree 100% You're not gonna know the whole picture without experiencing it, but there's still some basics you can learn about your totally new fit/ship in a friendly fight, like how often can/should I pulse my rep(s) and/or prop mod before cap becomes an issue or if it even does become an issue, etc. Is an active or buffer tank suitable for X FOTM fit my friend is flying, etc.

Nothing beats experiencing the full range of scenarios, but imo it's still worth gaining a little knowledge and thus perhaps a small measure of confidence and maybe a little better piloting from these "fights in a vacuum." I know it's helped me.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#11 - 2014-08-22 18:29:00 UTC
Or you know, make it so that once you accept a duel no remote actions can be used on your ship (they auto-fail), once you accept and undock, you can't re-dock till one of you is dead or the duel timer has elapsed, and if you are in a fleet, you are auto-kicked from it.

It's supposed to be a duel. You know, 2 players agreeing to fight.

If you want PVP, just go to lowsec. Nothing good happens when you fight on a trade hub undock.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-08-23 03:21:13 UTC
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
This seems like a recipe to opt out of the sandbox. What makes eve PVP great? It's everything. Fights develop organically right now, and drama erupts. There's fear, doubt, and suspicion. People lie and cheat. PVP without the sandbox elements is lacking. The fundamentals are the same, but all those little extras that make it special are gone. I oppose it because people will do it. I don't want to play in the sandbox alone.

Thats exactly what everyone said right before the current duel system was introduced.

I like me some real PvP, but what exactly would be the problem with having an absolutely fair duel mechanic where it is literally just two people ship v ship?
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#13 - 2014-08-23 12:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
This seems like a recipe to opt out of the sandbox. What makes eve PVP great? It's everything. Fights develop organically right now, and drama erupts. There's fear, doubt, and suspicion. People lie and cheat. PVP without the sandbox elements is lacking. The fundamentals are the same, but all those little extras that make it special are gone. I oppose it because people will do it. I don't want to play in the sandbox alone.

Thats exactly what everyone said right before the current duel system was introduced.

I like me some real PvP, but what exactly would be the problem with having an absolutely fair duel mechanic where it is literally just two people ship v ship?


"Absolutely fair" does not exist in Eve or any other context. Would your duel system also automagically balance the two players' SP? Would it factor in "best starting range" for each fit (brawl vs kite) and somehow calculate a "fair" starting position for each of you? What about implants? No matter what system you devise to try to attain your goal of "absolute fairness", players will ALWAYS figure out a way to game it to their advantage (just ask CCP), and guess what....that's okay, because it's a game.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Number X8
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-08-23 12:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Number X8
Join a decent corp & dual with your corpies.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-08-23 13:26:46 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
This seems like a recipe to opt out of the sandbox. What makes eve PVP great? It's everything. Fights develop organically right now, and drama erupts. There's fear, doubt, and suspicion. People lie and cheat. PVP without the sandbox elements is lacking. The fundamentals are the same, but all those little extras that make it special are gone. I oppose it because people will do it. I don't want to play in the sandbox alone.

Thats exactly what everyone said right before the current duel system was introduced.

I like me some real PvP, but what exactly would be the problem with having an absolutely fair duel mechanic where it is literally just two people ship v ship?


"Absolutely fair" does not exist in Eve or any other context. Would your duel system also automagically balance the two players' SP? Would it factor in "best starting range" for each fit (brawl vs kite) and somehow calculate a "fair" starting position for each of you? What about implants? No matter what system you devise to try to attain your goal of "absolute fairness", players will ALWAYS figure out a way to game it to their advantage (just ask CCP), and guess what....that's okay, because it's a game.

I understand that, dude. You dont need to whinge on about it. Youre missing the point.

What would be the problem with a fully consensual duel mechanic where nothing can interfere with the two duelists until the timer runs out? When I say absolutely fair, I just mean 1 v 1 with absolutely no interference.

I like the dueling system as it is currently, actually. I dont really mind if people are able to use a neutral repper to get them out of a jam, or accept a duel, then when I shoot at them, they dock and reship to something bigger to try and get an easy kill.

You just seem a bit elitist in your reasoning here. Sure, there is no such a thing as fairness in reality. That doesnt mean we cant have a dueling system that is an *absolutely fair 1 v 1 with no interference with either ship until the timer runs out*.
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#16 - 2014-08-23 16:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
This seems like a recipe to opt out of the sandbox. What makes eve PVP great? It's everything. Fights develop organically right now, and drama erupts. There's fear, doubt, and suspicion. People lie and cheat. PVP without the sandbox elements is lacking. The fundamentals are the same, but all those little extras that make it special are gone. I oppose it because people will do it. I don't want to play in the sandbox alone.

Thats exactly what everyone said right before the current duel system was introduced.

I like me some real PvP, but what exactly would be the problem with having an absolutely fair duel mechanic where it is literally just two people ship v ship?


"Absolutely fair" does not exist in Eve or any other context. Would your duel system also automagically balance the two players' SP? Would it factor in "best starting range" for each fit (brawl vs kite) and somehow calculate a "fair" starting position for each of you? What about implants? No matter what system you devise to try to attain your goal of "absolute fairness", players will ALWAYS figure out a way to game it to their advantage (just ask CCP), and guess what....that's okay, because it's a game.

I understand that, dude. You dont need to whinge on about it. Youre missing the point.

What would be the problem with a fully consensual duel mechanic where nothing can interfere with the two duelists until the timer runs out? When I say absolutely fair, I just mean 1 v 1 with absolutely no interference.

I like the dueling system as it is currently, actually. I dont really mind if people are able to use a neutral repper to get them out of a jam, or accept a duel, then when I shoot at them, they dock and reship to something bigger to try and get an easy kill.

You just seem a bit elitist in your reasoning here. Sure, there is no such a thing as fairness in reality. That doesnt mean we cant have a dueling system that is an *absolutely fair 1 v 1 with no interference with either ship until the timer runs out*.


That's not what you suggested in the original post. You wanted to lock in ship class as well as T1 or T2 fittings.

Quote:
- (Menu) Choose Ship Class
- T1 or T2 Fittings


Now you've changed your tune and only want to lock out "interference" (read: neutral logistics)? That's an entirely different suggestion from what you were saying originally. Neutral logi isn't the end-all-be-all it once was. Also, you can't seem to make up your mind. You either "don't really mind if people are able to use a neutral repper" or you want "no interference with either ship". Which is it?

Plus, whinging about whinging in a thread that is whinging about the duel system. X)

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-08-23 16:37:56 UTC
Quote:
You either "don't really mind if people are able to use a neutral repper" or you want "no interference with either ship". Which is it?

Its both. Just because I dont mind one feature doesnt mean I wouldnt like to see another in its place.

Quote:
Neutral logi isn't the end-all-be-all it once was

This is irrelevant. Neutral logi is an interference that could be dismissed if they adjust the dueling mechanic. And I think it should be dismissed from a duel. Even though I am a fan of the current dueling mechanic.

Quote:
That's not what you suggested in the original post. You wanted to lock in ship class as well as T1 or T2 fittings. Now you've changed your tune and only want to lock out "interference" (read: neutral logistics)? That's an entirely different suggestion from what you were saying originally.


Wrong. Read my name, then read the TS name.

Even so, I wouldnt mind if a duel was like the way TS wants it to be. Even if I had changed my tune, so what? If you dont ever change your tune, youre never going to move forward. I just wouldnt mind at all if the dueling system consisted of a purely 1 v 1 combat scenario with no interference and, basically, no bullshit. What would be the harm in that?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-08-23 17:11:40 UTC
There is no duel mechanic, it's just a manual limited engagement.

You'll find 1v1s more easily in lowsec, especially if you ask. Also, several corps (including my own) honour them 100% of the time.

Don't ask me, though, I prefer unpredictability when I solo. :)

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-08-24 09:44:11 UTC
Bengal Pride wrote:

Basically fun, easy way to pvp regardless of what corp, faction, w/e your deal is, with NO hidden strings.


I support this as long as both players lose both of their ships and their pods after one dies.
Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#20 - 2014-08-24 14:59:16 UTC
"Basically fun, easy way to pvp regardless of what corp, faction, w/e your deal is, with NO hidden strings."


Do you even Eve bro? You obviously don't even Eve, bro.

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