These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Hyperion] Burner Missions

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ynef
Skill Extraction Slavery
#61 - 2014-08-21 22:24:14 UTC
I'm a failure at this game.

20 failed attempts on the Serpentis rat. I live for 10 sec. at most. Haven't tried the others yet

I'm so dissapointed. It's so hard I shall never try this on TQ. I'll just lose my ship.

Cry
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2014-08-21 22:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
We've reproduced the Guristas speedup when he switches targets. Still working on a solution.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

Also one question I had, the Blood rat, he nuets, are those nuets overpowered/oversized for what would be possible to fit on a frig (eh-hem *cough* sansha incursion frigs) or are they infact small sized nuets?

It has the drain over time amount of a Cruor using two small deadspace NOS and a talisman implant set. The rate of fire of its neuts/nos (we don't have a NOS effect for NPCs and the result is the same in this case) is actually significantly slower than it would be from our hypothetical Cruor, but that helps make it a bit easier to play around.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#63 - 2014-08-21 23:44:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We've reproduced the Guristas speedup when he switches targets. Still working on a solution.

Dangeresque Too wrote:

Also one question I had, the Blood rat, he nuets, are those nuets overpowered/oversized for what would be possible to fit on a frig (eh-hem *cough* sansha incursion frigs) or are they infact small sized nuets?

It has the drain over time amount of a Cruor using two small deadspace NOS and a talisman implant set. The rate of fire of its neuts/nos (we don't have a NOS effect for NPCs and the result is the same in this case) is actually significantly slower than it would be from our hypothetical Cruor, but that helps make it a bit easier to play around.


So, in that case, he is then only using 2 small nuets and 2 guns, would be an interesting stat to see how much dps just those 2 guns doing?

You say that is a deadspace nos and talisman set, is that talisman set in addition to several other full implant sets effective bonuses or are each of the rats only as if the npc pilot was just using a single set of implants as compared to have a full talisman set stacked on top of a full slave and a full snake etc etc?
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#64 - 2014-08-22 00:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
In between bouts of the server problems I was able to test a bunch of these missions. My first impression of the burner missions is that, first, they can actually be easy (in a sense), and second, no, they are not at all like frigate PVP .
Players aren't going to learn much about PVP fitting from them (regardless of whether that's a goal for missions). Efficient fittings for these missions are what I would call “cheese” fittings, most of them useless in any other context, but it didn't take long for counters to become apparent.

For example, ECM fittings on high DPS ships like the Worm work decently on all but the Guristas mission, as noted above.

For the Guristas burner, it was surprisingly easy with this lame fit I quickly threw together:

[Worm]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Empty Mid Slot

Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher

Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II

3x 'Augmented' Acolyte
2x 'Augmented' Hornet

The augmented drones did not seem necessary and rockets would have been better than the light missiles. Start the fight by overheating the MWD, apply web, use MASB as needed, and it is over pretty quickly. That's just one way of doing it, and there are likely more efficient ways.

It does seem like the only frigates that will be able to complete any of these missions (solo) will be those that can do very high amounts of DPS. A T1 frigate might be able to do some of them with enough DPS—maybe a max DPS atron or merlin with lucky ECM cycles. In fact, all of these missions seem highly biased toward the Worm.

Some players (above) have already said these missions are too hard. At some point they will be easy, as once you figure out a "cheese" for them, they are just as predictable as the Damsel in Distress--you can even leave slots unfilled in some cases. That predictability etc. is not necessarily a bad thing, as they are still fun. But yes, these missions are different from the usual security grind, but only insofar as they require frigates in quirky fittings, not because they somehow approximate PVP...
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#65 - 2014-08-22 00:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I've beaten all of them solo without expensive faction modules, expensive implants or gang links. They're tough but they're definitely not impossible.

Ok, serpentis npc.
He orbits at 11km, if i use any t-2 ship with t-2 web, i can't web him down, if i try to approach him to get in range (10km) i can't because he webs me down and i am too slow.
I can tank him, but i do no damage to him because he's too fast.
If i use hyena, i get no damage from this ship, other ships can't web him down.
Overloading the web can only hold him down so many seconds, after i burn web out it's out of range again.

So there's no solution here, it can't be killed unless i use faction web that gets me 14km range.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#66 - 2014-08-22 00:42:33 UTC
The "Burner Base" in the Serpentis mission is bugged. No model, and zooming in on it does not work.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#67 - 2014-08-22 01:09:35 UTC
Spc One wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I've beaten all of them solo without expensive faction modules, expensive implants or gang links. They're tough but they're definitely not impossible.

Ok, serpentis npc.
He orbits at 11km, if i use any t-2 ship with t-2 web, i can't web him down, if i try to approach him to get in range (10km) i can't because he webs me down and i am too slow.
I can tank him, but i do no damage to him because he's too fast.
If i use hyena, i get no damage from this ship, other ships can't web him down.
Overloading the web can only hold him down so many seconds, after i burn web out it's out of range again.

So there's no solution here, it can't be killed unless i use faction web that gets me 14km range.


If only there was a way to overheat a T2 web to get more range out of it.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#68 - 2014-08-22 01:14:45 UTC
Divi Filus wrote:
Spc One wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I've beaten all of them solo without expensive faction modules, expensive implants or gang links. They're tough but they're definitely not impossible.

Ok, serpentis npc.
He orbits at 11km, if i use any t-2 ship with t-2 web, i can't web him down, if i try to approach him to get in range (10km) i can't because he webs me down and i am too slow.
I can tank him, but i do no damage to him because he's too fast.
If i use hyena, i get no damage from this ship, other ships can't web him down.
Overloading the web can only hold him down so many seconds, after i burn web out it's out of range again.

So there's no solution here, it can't be killed unless i use faction web that gets me 14km range.


If only there was a way to overheat a T2 web to get more range out of it.

You can overheat but it's time limited.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#69 - 2014-08-22 02:21:07 UTC
I really dislike the idea of messing with the difficulty (except perhaps the rep power on the blood one as previously stated). Myself and others in the thread have proven that they are consistently beatable with t2 fit ships, without fancy implants or links.

If CCP does add more in the future, there's opportunity to add lower difficulty ones or missions tailored around larger ships, the current ones are in a good place where they are right now. Only thing I don't like is that I basically wont be able to do these missions since I have absolutely no interest running l4 missions and they are not available in any other avenue. However, I do understand that it would not make sense to add a new agent type when there are only 5 missions available. Maybe make the structure inside the mission deadspace scannable with combat probes to allow organized players to blitz the missions if they prepare (lowsec/nullsec only)?

Also another point of feedback, I assume the racial structure inside the mission does not drop any loot? They have a massive amount of HP and I wasted quite a bit of time killing a couple to see if they dropped anything. Should probably significantly reduce the HP or just make them invulnerable to avoid player confusion and frustration.
Coelomate
Gilliomate Corp
#70 - 2014-08-22 02:41:51 UTC
Killed the blood raider burner using a passive tanked worm and a mobile depot:

(1) Passive brick tank your worm like this: http://i.imgur.com/rGmPhtp.png

(2) Fill your cargo with a mobile depot, 3 drone damage amplifiers, and a billion drones (I think hobgoblins will work best, another post suggested thermal missiles had the highest effective DPS)

(3) Land on the stupid cheating cruor. Get neuted to death; cry.

(4) Drop a mobile depot. Enjoy your invincible passive tank. DO NOT LAUNCH DRONES.

(5) Switch to DDAs once your depot is up, launch drones, and engage.

(6) Switch back to shield power relays if you fall near 30% shields. Every time the stupid cheating cruor kills one of your drones, you can move some from your inventory into your drone bay.

(7) Great victory: http://i.imgur.com/UQYNVDG.png (he chewed through like 8 augmented hobgoblins though...)

(8) Wreck is, ofc, empty

Love,

~Coelomate
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#71 - 2014-08-22 03:28:48 UTC
Live stream, fozzie check this stream:

http://www.twitch.tv/daopa
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-08-22 03:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
In between bouts of the server problems I was able to test a bunch of these missions. My first impression of the burner missions is that, first, they can actually be easy (in a sense), and second, no, they are not at all like frigate PVP .
Players aren't going to learn much about PVP fitting from them (regardless of whether that's a goal for missions). Efficient fittings for these missions are what I would call “cheese” fittings, most of them useless in any other context, but it didn't take long for counters to become apparent.

For example, ECM fittings on high DPS ships like the Worm work decently on all but the Guristas mission, as noted above.

For the Guristas burner, it was surprisingly easy with this lame fit I quickly threw together:

[Worm]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Empty Mid Slot

Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Light Missile Launcher

Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II

3x 'Augmented' Acolyte
2x 'Augmented' Hornet

The augmented drones did not seem necessary and rockets would have been better than the light missiles. Start the fight by overheating the MWD, apply web, use MASB as needed, and it is over pretty quickly. That's just one way of doing it, and there are likely more efficient ways.

It does seem like the only frigates that will be able to complete any of these missions (solo) will be those that can do very high amounts of DPS. A T1 frigate might be able to do some of them with enough DPS—maybe a max DPS atron or merlin with lucky ECM cycles. In fact, all of these missions seem highly biased toward the Worm.

Some players (above) have already said these missions are too hard. At some point they will be easy, as once you figure out a "cheese" for them, they are just as predictable as the Damsel in Distress--you can even leave slots unfilled in some cases. That predictability etc. is not necessarily a bad thing, as they are still fun. But yes, these missions are different from the usual security grind, but only insofar as they require frigates in quirky fittings, not because they somehow approximate PVP...


I fail to see how making a cheese fit when you know exactly what you are fighting is nothing like actual PvP. If I knew what I was fighting beforehand in a solo fight and exactly what he would fit, yes, I would fit exactly to counter his/her fit.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
DeadNite
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#73 - 2014-08-22 04:33:28 UTC
Anomic Agent (Angel Cartel Dramiel Burner)
- This pirate will be flying a shield boosted Dramiel frigate, with an extremely small signature radius. He tends to deal most of his damage with Domination Fusion ammo, supplemented with Mjolnir rockets. Survivors of his previous attacks claim that he likes to orbit his opponents at very close range at high speed to make himself hard to hit. He always flies with a Stasis Webifier and Warp Scrambler fit.

As a sidenote: I found that this frig uses a warp disruptor and not a warp scrambler.

1st attempt with Veng: Could not break its tank and was barely able to tank his damage, died during my second AAR reload. He uses an afterburner and not a MWD. Scram was useless.

- Fit: http://pastebin.com/4wYXMfsr

2nd attempt with Veng: Could not break its tank and could tank him without issue swapping AAR for a T2 small armor repairer and the scram for a second web.

- Fit: http://pastebin.com/D0CywXE1

3rd attempt with Veng: Could break its tank but it would rep back to full during 10 second rocket reload. Was able to perma tank it without cap issues. I swapped an EM armor mod for a second BCU and dropped the rep speed rig for a rigor. Not sure its possible without a shiny rocket fit.

- Fit: http://pastebin.com/R3KgL1Rm

4th attempt with Succ: Could break its tank but its a race to see who pops first. In the end I accidentally burned out my AB and died promptly after.

- Fit: http://pastebin.com/DWH5XLaa

5th attempt with Succ: Killed it finally but too close to really call a victory. I think a 10MN AB fit would do a good job here as once you get some distance the damage falls off pretty drastically. In this case I would hold at about 10kM ahead and since its chasing you, you will track it with scorch pretty easily. Will have to test next time.

- Post Fight Status: http://imgur.com/5ffdQSd

Anomic Agent (Blood Raider Burner)
- This pirate will be flying an armor tanked Cruor frigate, with extremely effective Nosferatu modules. She destroyers her enemies using pulse lasers loaded with Conflagration frequency crystals. Survivors of her previous attacks claim that she likes to orbit her opponents at around 5km while draining their capacitor dry. She always flies with a long-range Stasis Webifier and a Warp Scrambler fit.

1st Attempt with Succ: I went in with the expectations I would get destroyed... and I did (Wanted to see what I was up against). Not even remotely close as I barely dented the armor of the Cruor.

- Fit: Same as above

Closing Thoughts
I think that these missions could be quite a bit of fun and the difficulty will decrease quite a bit with the ability to fit meta6+ mods. These missions definitely don't get me fired up about PvE but I think they are pretty neat. I think that cruiser variants could be more fun. The reason I say this is because one thing that has always gotten to me is how short frig fights are. Things are over so quickly it is hard to tell what went wrong and where. With that said, I think these will be a great addition to the game for those looking for a great challenge with their red cross shooting (At least until min/max ship fits are decided).
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#74 - 2014-08-22 05:08:06 UTC
I think the forum ate my post...

The scram from rats is being displayed as a "Disruptor" in the effects bar above the HUD.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Seamus Donohue
EVE University
Ivy League
#75 - 2014-08-22 05:21:29 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
I think the ships are immune to Tracking Disruption, but not ECM for some reason (which is far more effective). Just tried to fight the Daredevil Burner with a Sentinel with 2x TDs with -76% optimal each, and it still was hitting me at 12km.

Confirmed. The Blood Raiders Burner still did frightening amounts of damage to my Sentinel with Range dampening out the wazoo. My Stacking penalties spreadsheet tells me that I should have been reducing the optimal and falloff range by 91%, and yet my Sentinel was still destroyed in short order. That should not have been the case unless the Blood Raiders Burner starts with 50 kilometer {Optimal + Falloff}.

ECM was very effective, provided that the correct racial jammer is used.

Strata Maslav wrote:
*Note I am still at work and have been unable to test the feature*
Fozzie will you have some sort of warning display before accepting a Burner mission?

When I run mission I have the bad habit of spamming 'complete mission' and 'accept mission' before I have even read where/what I am supposed to be doing. I worry that people may accidentally accepting a Burner mission and not have the resources to complete it.

I feel the introduction of the 'niche' missions may catch certain players (especially newer pilots) off guard leading them to losing ships and losing standings to abandoned missions.

You get no standings penalty for declining or failing these missions. If you accept by mistake, just quit the mission and request the next mission.

Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
I've also noted a few ppl saying how after being unable to break the NPC tank, they tried to log-off to get away to try again...yet were not able to get away by logging off. Does this mean these NPC's will ignore the E-Warp built in to pve for the many times that players get those pesky 'socket-disconnects' that you claim you have no control over fixing...

(sorta like today, after seeing the server go down, what, 5 times now?, i'm not touching anything Eve for the rest of the day at best)

It has always been the case that if you log off in space, your ship only makes one attempt to go into Emergency Warp to a random point 1 gigameter away. If an NPC in any mission has you pointed when you disconnect or log off, then your ship fails that attempt and just sits there for 5 minutes being shot at.

Survivor of Teskanen.  Fan of John Rourke.

I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#76 - 2014-08-22 05:24:57 UTC
Shirley Serious wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

I've beaten all of them solo without expensive faction modules, expensive implants or gang links. They're tough but they're definitely not impossible.


to be fair, since you're one of the designers, you already (probably) know at least one of the ways to beat them.



well duh, but also note that historically the Eve player base is smarter than the Dev force creating the game. I'd bet that given a day of playing around on the test server I could do the same as Fozzie, if not better. And anyways as soon as one player figures out how to win they can write about it and teach other players to do the same. I see some of that in this thread already. I'm super bummed out that I can't get on sisi right now Evil

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#77 - 2014-08-22 05:29:09 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
I fail to see how making a cheese fit when you know exactly what you are fighting is nothing like actual PvP. If I knew what I was fighting beforehand in a solo fight and exactly what he would fit, yes, I would fit exactly to counter his fit.


with actual pvp making a cheese fit is even easier than vs the burner missions as you have the full array of ewar to play with.

anyways if the burners were even a bit more unpredictable I'd probably just fly with an alt and still beat them nearly every time.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#78 - 2014-08-22 05:36:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To be clear, these missions are definitely not intended to teach players how to PVP (although I can completely understand why people might hope that they would be).

Even attempting that would require a completely new AI. Optional missions that teach PVP skills are a good long-term goal, but these are designed to be challenging changes of pace from the traditional level 4 mission experience.
They do expose players to thinking about fittings and tactics in ways that other missions don't encourage, and hopefully by either solving these puzzles themselves or by reading about how others have solved them they will improve their understandings of EVE mechanics and how module fittings can be used creatively to reach specific goals.


I want to preface this by saying that I've had fun messing around with these missions on SiSi, they're definitely all beatable after a bit of thought/experimentation, and I'm happy to see that you're introducing new solo pve content. However, I think there are at least two major problems with these as they stand.

First, puzzle-solving is great - as I said, I've had fun testing fits and concepts against the burners and tweaking them until they work. This is fine on SiSi where I can get new ships for free and experiment to my heart's content. OTOH, if I'd been doing this on TQ, this experimentation and puzzle-solving exercise would probably have cost me a billion or two (plus a potentially lengthy trip to the nearest market hub to get a new ship after each failure). Puzzle-solving is a lot less fun if you get smacked in the face every time one of your attempted solutions fails...

Second, while I appreciate the novelty of these missions, it's abundantly clear that once you've figured them out, that's it - they behave the same way each and every time so they're actually not really all that different to existing missions. You get your heavily min-maxed ship, press F1 (and maybe set an appropriate orbit plus apply ewar), receive bounty/reward/LP. I was hoping when I read the devblog about these missons that they would be an attempt to introduce some genuine unpredictability into eve's pve - something that would be a bit more like, say, diablo where even if the mechanics and tactics are pretty much identical between play sessions, there's enough variety in terrain/enemy types/enemy abilities that it doesn't get stale anything like so quickly as the rest of eve's pve content.
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#79 - 2014-08-22 09:19:18 UTC
Level 4 mission runners tend to be low-sp and heavily focused in one direction, usually towards battleships.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-08-22 09:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
McBorsk wrote:
Level 4 mission runners tend to be low-sp and heavily focused in one direction, usually towards battleships.

thankyou for your enlightenment.
so?