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System Activity Index / Cost Index / etc
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#1 - 2014-08-20 18:46:38 UTC
So as I was continuing to manufacture my normal goods today I got into looking through the other facilities and comparing the Cost Index, my system was about halfway down the list. A little confused as I thought that this one value isn't the whole story with cost to jobs as the Cost Index is then combined with System Activity Index as well as the system's station multiplier (for number and type of facilities).

But I couldn't for the life of me actually find that info in game to tell me the end value effect on a job for that particular system.

Unless the System Cost Index is infact the end all of the entirety of the calculations taking into account all bonuses and reductions based on the Activity Index and the station type/count multiplier (System Station Multiplier?)? But when re-reading the devblogs it almost makes it sound as if the System Cost Index is actually the System Activity Index?

Is there somewhere one can find that information short of going system by system, recording all types of stations and their counts per system, then listing that next to a list of Cost Indexes for those system, then doing the math to figure out which one is best?

For example, because I'm lazy and it was at the top of the list in Forge... system Abagawa:

System cost index (listed in the map screen): 0.04
System cost index (listed in the industry window): somewhere around 40% (you know, cause that little bar is pretty easy to be specific)
Manufacturing facilities: 2 (both factories, so 0.95 each)

Also mentioned long ago in the Price of Change devblog, where they say Nonni has the best system multiplier of .48 (due to all the stations/types in system). Where can we see this value or the end result of this value on cost index?

So maybe someone can either explain this cost more clearly or help me put the pieces into place, but either way they don't seem to be making sense to me. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place with all these new bells and whistles and all the changes to where you used to have to look to find certain info changing several times throughout the testing process on Sisi.

Granted I am still making a half decent margin on my goods but figured I would do some checking while waiting for the markets to start to settle after all these changes at once.
Angie Chatter
#2 - 2014-08-20 19:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Angie Chatter
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php

Just open the map -> Industry -> "system cost index" and select what activity u want to-do. This is the value that influences the install cost, thats all. Plug it into your activity formula found here http://eve-industry.org/export/IndustryFormulas.pdf and use this api http://api.eve-industry.org/ to grab the so called "adj base price" for your blueprint that is the base for all install cost fee's.

PS: Yes the "cost index" in the industry window is the same as the map/Industry index displayed.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#3 - 2014-08-20 20:43:32 UTC
At least that allows me to more easily read/sort the results of the Cost Index instead of the horid industry screen. But that doesn't answer the question of is the system's facility count/type modifier as they mentioned in several blogs included in that System Cost Index or not? (the PDF almost tried, but then just said "here, go grab the values" instead of saying how they were calculated)

They word the blogs like it is multiplied after the fact: "There are then a number of things that can affect pricing.", listed immediately after they explained the Cost Index, giving indication this is added later; and "'There are a range of modifiers that further affect the final price.", also listed as a something that can further reduce the effect of the Cost Index.

So what I would really like answered by CCP as I can't seem to find it clearly stated anywhere at what point is the station type/count multiplier put into the equation and is it included in the Cost Index?
Angie Chatter
#4 - 2014-08-20 23:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Angie Chatter
Dangeresque Too wrote:

So what I would really like answered by CCP as I can't seem to find it clearly stated anywhere at what point is the station type/count multiplier put into the equation and is it included in the Cost Index?


There is no special station multiplier for the install cost just a general 10% NPC station tax, which is applied if u produce/invent at a npc station vs zero extra tax at your own POS.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2014-08-21 01:44:02 UTC
Angie Chatter wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:

So what I would really like answered by CCP as I can't seem to find it clearly stated anywhere at what point is the station type/count multiplier put into the equation and is it included in the Cost Index?


There is no special station multiplier for the install cost just a general 10% NPC station tax, which is applied if u produce/invent at a npc station vs zero extra tax at your own POS.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/industry-3rd-party-developers/

APPENDIX 2: Station cost modifiers
Qoi
Exert Force
#6 - 2014-08-21 06:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Qoi
Angie Chatter is correct, It makes no difference in what NPC station in a system you install your job. You just take the System Cost Index, that is the only variable you need to consider. (For example to produce a one run copy, you pay system cost index * base cost of blueprint * 0.02 before taxes ) If you read the devblogs carefully, you will see why. Or you just read my PDF.

Quote:

So what I would really like answered by CCP as I can't seem to find it clearly stated anywhere at what point is the station type/count multiplier put into the equation and is it included in the Cost Index?

This is answered clearly in the devblogs. The system cost index is calculated as follows:

system cost index = square root ( industry jobs installed for that activity in the system / industry jobs installed for that activity in the two universes ) * product of all station cost modifiers in the system.

However that calculation is mostly meaningless for you as you just grab the system cost index from CREST.

http://eve-industry.org
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#7 - 2014-08-21 19:20:26 UTC
Qoi wrote:
Angie Chatter is correct, It makes no difference in what NPC station in a system you install your job. You just take the System Cost Index, that is the only variable you need to consider. (For example to produce a one run copy, you pay system cost index * base cost of blueprint * 0.02 before taxes ) If you read the devblogs carefully, you will see why. Or you just read my PDF.

Quote:

So what I would really like answered by CCP as I can't seem to find it clearly stated anywhere at what point is the station type/count multiplier put into the equation and is it included in the Cost Index?

This is answered clearly in the devblogs. The system cost index is calculated as follows:

system cost index = square root ( industry jobs installed for that activity in the system / industry jobs installed for that activity in the two universes ) * product of all station cost modifiers in the system.

However that calculation is mostly meaningless for you as you just grab the system cost index from CREST.

Um, no, its not clearly stated... time to start quoting now and taking up oodles of screen space because apparently its the only way to show you... its sorta inferred, but never clearly stated.

Quote:
system_activity_index = square root (system_activity_job_hours / global_activity_job_hours) (The only equation for Cost Index listed in All you want to know devblog.

This index is then used in conjunction with job value to create a base cost. (For those of you who want to do the actual math, we suggest taking a read of this devblog.)

With this value (input costs for manufacturing, 2% of output's input costs for research), we then multiply by the activity index for the activity in question to get the base build cost. Example: let's say the manufacturing index in Jita is 5%, and you want to build an Apocalypse whose base materials cost 200m ISK. Base build cost is 200m*5% = 10m.

There are a range of modifiers that further affect the final price.

1. A reduction in price based on the stations and upgrades present in a system. For any applicable job in a given system, the multipliers for all the stations and upgrades in that system are multiplied together with the base price. See Appendix 2 for a full list.

2. Teams will increase job costs when they're used. This cost is a simple percentage increase, and will be listed in the team's information.

3. Facilities can impose a tax on jobs within that facility. For NPC-owned facilities, this is a flat 10%, meaning a 1.1x multiplier to the job price.

The issue I have with this is the number of different terms they are using: base cost, job cost, job price, base build cost... are these referring to the same thing or different things? Regardless it doesn't make it very clear where they fit into the grand equation.

As per the linked devblog Industry & 3rd party devolpers:

Quote:
Determining the install cost for a job is getting a little more complicated with Crius, so let us quickly go over what you will need to calculate it.

1. Fetch the base material quantities for manufacturing the item from your blueprint, from the blueprints.yaml file in the SDE.
2. Multiply each material quantity by the market adjustedPrice as returned from the /market/prices/ endpoint and sum them all together. This is called the base cost.
3. The base cost is then modified based on the type of activity:

Manufacturing: baseCost x numberOfRuns

4. Multiply the cost by the cost index returned in the /industry/systems/ resource, for the solar system you are installing the job in and the activity you are performing.
5. Multiply the cost by any facility bonuses as described in the ramAssemblyLineTypes table in the SDE
6. Add a 10% tax for NPC facilities, or the custom tax rate set for player outposts in nullsec


But you see here it doesn't cover the equation in that devblog either, just says "Hey, go here, grab this value".

Now for the equations listed in your PDF:

Quote:
Job Installation Fee
jobFee = baseJobCost ∗ systemCostIndex ∗ runs

The baseJobCost and systemCostIndex can be acquired via CREST and are explained in a later section.

(Later section)

For the Job Installation Costs the adjusted prices, the system cost indices and the team cost modifiers are required. These can be imported with a JSON parser from:
•http://public-crest.eveonline.com/market/prices/
•http://public-crest.eveonline.com/industry/systems/
•http://public-crest.eveonline.com/industry/teams/

The baseJobCost for a blueprint is calculated using the materials required for manufacturing.
baseJobCost = Sum(baseQuantity * adjustedPrice) } All manufacturing materials

*some of this equation didn't look like math symbols that I could find, and I don't know why you would Sum 2 values you are already just doing basic multiplication on*

Generally the baseJobCost is then multiplied with the activity specific System Cost Index and an activity specific multiplier to get the jobFee. See the individual activities for details.

Total Job Installation Costs:
teamCost = jobFee * teamCostModifier/100
facilityTax = (jobFee + teamCost) * taxRate/100
totalInstallationCost = jobFee + teamCost + facilityTax

So maybe you see my confusion here as the PDF doesn't actually list how the Cost Index is calculated either.

If you are so sure they did fully explain this complete equation maybe you can link where and when?
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#8 - 2014-08-21 19:24:18 UTC
I guess more plainly again stated since I ran out of characters in the previous post quoting the devblogs and PDF reference files...

What is the equation that puts that info up for CREST to grab? How is it specifically calculated and where is that equation grabbing all of its numbers from? Perhaps an example from an actual system with explanations each step of the way compared to the end value and what we see on TQ when building something?
Qoi
Exert Force
#9 - 2014-08-21 20:26:02 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
I guess more plainly again stated since I ran out of characters in the previous post quoting the devblogs and PDF reference files...

What is the equation that puts that info up for CREST to grab? How is it specifically calculated and where is that equation grabbing all of its numbers from? Perhaps an example from an actual system with explanations each step of the way compared to the end value and what we see on TQ when building something?


Hey, i just reread the relevant devblogs and i'd like to apologize, they are indeed leaving out crucial information. Mostly because the "All you want to know" devblog invalidates the earlier ones. The true formula for calculating the system cost index is unknown at this time, also because there are some minimum values for the system activity index in case that no activity is happening at all. (Which is why systems like Jita have nonzero values for activities that are impossible to perform in them)

The All you want to know devblog says this:
Quote:

For any applicable job in a given system, the multipliers for all the stations and upgrades in that system are multiplied together with the base price.

This is technically true but entirely unhelpful. The truth is that they are multiplied together with the system activity index to create the system cost index. This is not documented in a devblog. However it is apparent that systems with the same activity index can have different cost indices. According to the devblog there are no other factors.

Quote:

Unless the System Cost Index is infact the end all of the entirety of the calculations taking into account all bonuses and reductions based on the Activity Index and the station type/count multiplier (System Station Multiplier?)?

That is true, that is indeed what the system cost index is.

Quote:

But when re-reading the devblogs it almost makes it sound as if the System Cost Index is actually the System Activity Index?

Yes, the devblog is wrong about that. It does not clearly distinguish the two.

Quote:

System cost index (listed in the map screen): 0.04
System cost index (listed in the industry window): somewhere around 40% (you know, cause that little bar is pretty easy to be specific)
Manufacturing facilities: 2 (both factories, so 0.95 each)

The problem here is that a full scale in the bar does not mean a system cost index of 1.0. The details are not documented but my first guess would be that the system with the highest system cost index has a full bar.

http://eve-industry.org
Qoi
Exert Force
#10 - 2014-08-21 20:26:57 UTC
Quote:

Also mentioned long ago in the Price of Change devblog, where they say Nonni has the best system multiplier of .48 (due to all the stations/types in system). Where can we see this value or the end result of this value on cost index?

You can only calculate this multiplier by hand.

Quote:

So maybe someone can either explain this cost more clearly or help me put the pieces into place, but either way they don't seem to be making sense to me. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place with all these new bells and whistles and all the changes to where you used to have to look to find certain info changing several times throughout the testing process on Sisi.

It might be that this information is elswhere. I'm fairly certain i saw it somewhere, but it might have been weeks of testing on sisi, chats with other developers and CSM or a stray Greyscale forum post.

http://eve-industry.org
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#11 - 2014-08-22 00:08:42 UTC
Quote:
You can only calculate this multiplier by hand.

Seems to be an undersight and yet another way for something to be broken and yet not confirmable.

Quote:
That is true, that is indeed what the system cost index is.

I hate to continue to be devil's advocate here, but as we have no documentation on this equation we can't know for sure or double check to confirm. I might be wrong here but CCP's track record of saying something is working one way only to find out later it infact wasn't working at all isn't exactly great, esp when people continue to ask them for confirmation or further details but never get an answer.

I seem to remember in all my testing of this (the whole of 2-3 days it was actually on sisi before the patch hit) and constantly asking CCP to confirm things they either would never answer or just pass the concern off as unnecessary.

With patches as important as this, as someone mentioned in another thread, documentation... I don't know of any other major software company that can get away with releasing a product that changes so many fundamental features without having accurate documentation of how those features operate and work at time of release. We have none, or the little we do have is scattered out of context or buried in individual posts amongst massive double to triple digit page threadnaughts.