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Crime & Punishment

 
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Open Letter To White Knight Community Re: Suicide Ganks In Progress
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
#41 - 2014-08-21 11:20:07 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
but surely making freighter ganks less one-sided will also make it more entertaining for all involved, no?


I'm all for that, but the willing volunteers who line their loot pinatas up on autopilot at gates should be the first ones taking steps to do something.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Solecist Project
#42 - 2014-08-21 11:22:02 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Confirming problems with this idea:

"Members Of The White Knight Community" tend to be totally awful at every single aspect of EVE mechanics. I'm not trolling, being rude, or trying to start a flame war - but they literally tend to be the worst players that I have ever engaged. They tend to fly massive fail fits, have serious issues with concepts such as locking onto targets, shooting at targets, basic game mechanics, or anything else needed to even have a chance at a successful fight. They also tend to be motivated by ideas they have come up with that the game client itself does not recognize.

Other problems:

Self-Interest. As you can see from just typing my name into Zkillboard, almost every single miner I encounter is thinking about one thing: how much ISK can I make per hour while not having to be at the keyboard in the first place. Everything else is irrelevant, from fitting any type of defense, from paying attention to what is going on in the first place.

Attention Span. Fighting back against gankers requires use of the EVE client. White-Knights and Miners tend to be AFK, watching Netflix, in the bathroom, or any activity that involves not using the EVE client. When it comes to miners, and I rarely say this - I wish that CCP would do something. The simple that that I can grab a barge, find a belt with two high-volume rocks, press f1 on one of them, f2 on the other, and then stop paying attention to EVE 30-45 mins and generally make a in-game profit is just sad to me. If there were changes made to make mining a much more "active" profession, not only would the bot-mining community be damaged (which I think we all see as a good thing) but miners themselves would find themselves actually engaging in defending themselves simply due to having to be at the keyboard in the first place :P

Fun: As a ganker, I don't have to wait on anyone to generate content or "play" with. If I feel like getting some action, I undock and go find someone to shoot - and rarely does it take me more then 5 mins to find something fun to shoot. The "White-Knight" is limited to waiting on me or other gankers before anything can happen - this triggers the above issue (Attention Span) and they then give up, hop back into a untanked Hulk, and watch netflix for another hour before exploding again.

Toxicity Of Community: With exceptions (I know a few "White-Knights" who are fun people, always give a GF in a local, and are a blast to talk with) - "White-Knights" tend to be motivated by anger, rage, hurt feelings, and a rather limited and immature view on how EVE works in the first place (One only need to consider the popular arguments of "YOU SHOULD GO TO LOW SEC", "MINING SHIPS CANNOT DEFEND THEMSELVES", "HONOR", "FAIR-FIGHT", etc) . This results in a self-defeating situation - players who do not suffer from the earlier issues (Overwhelming self-interest, short attention span, understanding of game mechanics) and who really just want to have some PVP fun make contact with "Anti-Ganking" groups, and then run away from them as quickly as possible due to the quality of communications in their communities. Other members of the New Order can vouch for me on this one, many of our members start off as "White-Knights" and simply grow tired of being part of a community known for little more then an obsessional with homosexual acts, e-rage, "honor", tears, and players who have no idea how EVE even works in the first place and this results in them joining us and commenting on how refreshingly fun and well-educated most members of the New Order tend to be.

In closing - I personally do not understand how spending hours of my game time hunting down members of ganking groups and managing to get myself in a position where I could "save" a target that is likely fit in a totally silly way and not even at the keyboard in the first place would be in any way "fun" - but I respect all forms of emergent gameplay. The real issue that I see with the failure of the "White-Knights" to ever accomplish anything of worth can only be solved by other mature and intelligent players considering that style of play as "fun" coming together - and the simple reality is that I don't know (with a few exceptions!) any mature and intelligent players who would consider it fun :P

And finally, I cannot find the original post - but someone on these forums once brought up what is another serious issue with the "Anti Ganker" concept - who really wants to spend their time "defending" people who have not realized that "Anti-Ganking" is something that can be taken care of by one person - the target. Using advanced techniques such as:

* watching local
* being at keyboard
* using intel channels
* fitting a tank
* using d-scan

will result in your chances of being ganked being reduced to a pretty tiny amount. After all, who wants to help players who cannot even be bothered to learn these very simple techniques?
What my master said.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-08-21 13:08:14 UTC
Uppgrayyedd wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
To counter the above, if I were going to gank it, I would simply bring a suicide blackbird or gryphon. After the logi gets jammed, he does have to manually relock and re-engage reps, so that may help out a bit.

Honestly, I would pick another target.


You have no idea what you are talking about.

Stick to lowsec gatecamps, pirate noob.


Confirming I have zero idea how to operate an ECM ship.

Allow me to go back to the Gondi gate in peace, please.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#44 - 2014-08-21 14:01:30 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Fun: As a ganker, I don't have to wait on anyone to generate content or "play" with. If I feel like getting some action, I undock and go find someone to shoot - and rarely does it take me more then 5 mins to find something fun to shoot. The "White-Knight" is limited to waiting on me or other gankers before anything can happen - this triggers the above issue (Attention Span) and they then give up, hop back into a untanked Hulk, and watch netflix for another hour before exploding again.

As usual, I agree with most of what you said. Ultimately, the best way to prevent suicide ganks is for potential targets (i.e. EVERYONE) is to be at keyboard and actually playing.

But, as I've hinted, I'm really not trying to prevent suicide ganks. I'm trying to make suicide ganking more interesting and fun for all involved, both the gankers and the White Knights. This is something else I think the White Knight community has gotten wrong, and, in may ways, would also be handled better if they did it like folks do it in nullsec. All it takes is three simple steps:

1. Form an effective intel channel. Get a group of like-minded players into a channel, and have them report large-scale gank fleets when they see them. If pilots want to spend time looking for them, that's their prerogative. I believe that there are several anti-ganking intel channels up and running already, although I have no idea how active they are.

2. Do whatever tickles your fancy until you see a report of a gank fleet in your intel channel. This is the most important part. Without having fun, you'll burn out and quit, and without good intel, you'll be horribly ineffective.

3. Form up a gang in logi ships when you get reports of a gank fleet and see what you can do to rain on the gankers' collective parade. Everybody wins (except maybe the victim).

These White Knights who are spending hours hanging out on a gate or in belts just waiting for a gank to maybe help counter are just going to get bored out of their skulls and quit. Take a lesson from nullsec and only counter threats that are clear and present. Don't waste your time looking for targets, respond when they come out in force and have fun in the meantime.

Keep in mind, this is all in the context of a large gank fleet (a la Burn Aufay) that stays active in one system for a few hours. Against solo gankers, I really think there is virtually nothing a White Knight can do aside from educate pilots.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Velicitia
XS Tech
#45 - 2014-08-21 15:33:43 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
stuff

more stuff



You could do something like this -- but the problem is that the community is all over the place from Amarr to Jita, Dodixie to J-LPX7, and everywhere in between; and they refuse to stop over-exerting themselves and settle down somewhere as an initial base of operations (e.g. Halaima).

if the WKC could do something like that, they'd have a decent start, I guess.

1. Choose out of the way system (prefer deadend, 0.5, Minmatar / Amarr space, [more stuff])
2. Form corp, intel channels, etc.
3. Set up shop. Kick out everyone else, and lock the system down (well inasmuch as that's possible in hisec)
4. ???
5. Expand to the neighbouring ... oh wait, WTF are we settling for ~hisec~ systems????
6. You're now another group of "the problem"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Darsena Izuma
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-08-21 17:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Darsena Izuma
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Blue Team already has more than sufficient DPS, tackle, and EWar, so what do they need if their goal is to keep the HVU alive?


It's a really good point. A lot of the anti-ganking (well, high-sec anti-ganking) I've seen has been less about protecting the target and more about blasting the ganker's compatriots who come by to loot afterwards. Other than that, nothing is accomplished, except for jumping on board CONCORD's kill-mail. I have a hard time seeing what, if anything, has actually been accomplished to help the target. (There are, of course, some WK folks who do also spend a lot of time trying to educate miners on how to mine safely: meaning not-afk, aligned, actually tanked, etc..., but I don't think they're the majority.)



DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Confirming problems with this idea:


All of this. I'm ashamed to admit, as a newbie I used to do a lot of high-sec mining, and hated CODE. (Well, not ashamed of mining in high-sec, but of my attitude. Even though I never mined afk - why would I pay to NOT play something? - I still got into some huge arguments with some of them in local or in that anti-ganking channel.) I still disagree with them on the right way to "educate" miners on how to actually play, but once you cut through the James-cult-RP nonsense and actually talk for real with them, they've got some really good insights into actual game-play. And ultimately, the question really isn't about "how can WKs do a better job defending miners?" It's "how do we teach players to fly mining ships responsibly so that they are safe, even against these kinds of dangers?"

Fedo are not what they seem to be.  Welcome to Night Vale.
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#47 - 2014-08-21 18:24:06 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:

As usual, I agree with most of what you said. Ultimately, the best way to prevent suicide ganks is for potential targets (i.e. EVERYONE) is to be at keyboard and actually playing.

But, as I've hinted, I'm really not trying to prevent suicide ganks. I'm trying to make suicide ganking more interesting and fun for all involved, both the gankers and the White Knights. This is something else I think the White Knight community has gotten wrong, and, in may ways, would also be handled better if they did it like folks do it in nullsec. All it takes is three simple steps:



Confirming that Bronson is one of the rare few "White Knights" I know who actually gets it, and that everyone involved in high-sec ganking or preventing high-sec ganking could learn a thing or two from his attitude. It's all about fun!

Darsena Izuma wrote:

All of this. I'm ashamed to admit, as a newbie I used to do a lot of high-sec mining, and hated CODE. (Well, not ashamed of mining in high-sec, but of my attitude. Even though I never mined afk - why would I pay to NOT play something? - I still got into some huge arguments with some of them in local or in that anti-ganking channel.) I still disagree with them on the right way to "educate" miners on how to actually play, but once you cut through the James-cult-RP nonsense and actually talk for real with them, they've got some really good insights into actual game-play. And ultimately, the question really isn't about "how can WKs do a better job defending miners?" It's "how do we teach players to fly mining ships responsibly so that they are safe, even against these kinds of dangers?"


Don't feel bad, I think most players of EVE fall into this group. It's all GRRR goons and GRRR CODE and very strong opinions about groups that the player really has never even spoken to or heaven forbid, engaged in some content creation with :P And I could not agree with you more - I really feel if the WK community continues down the road of trying to achieve the goal of "preventing ganks" vs "showing players who are not very good at EVE yet how to not be ganked" - they will always be doomed to failure. Setting a goal of "gank prevention" is somewhat akin to setting a goal of "lazy player prevention" - at best, very limited success will be enjoyed with this strategy.

I still stand by my point earlier - which is feeling that all of EVE could benefit from CCP taking a good long look at the entire concept of "mining" as it exists - and realize that they have ended up with a system that rewards lazy, away from keyboard game play and is continuing to breed a entire generation of members of the sandbox who "just want to be left alone" and would prefer to never have to interact with other players with the exception of selling their ore or their products created from said ORE. This is not good for EVE.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-08-21 18:53:06 UTC
I'm all for teaching new players new things. Relatively speaking, I'm brand new to the game myself and the greatest source of information I've been privaleged to use is other players.

That said, I think what Bronson is getting at is that "anti-ganking" presents a unique combat opporotunity and it would be intersting to find a way to make it work. Whether a gank victim benefits or suffers as a result is inconsequential. You could debate the merits and methods of helping bad players endlessly, but in the context of curiosity it really doesn't matter.

At least, that's the way I read it.
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#49 - 2014-08-21 19:11:15 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
I'm all for teaching new players new things. Relatively speaking, I'm brand new to the game myself and the greatest source of information I've been privaleged to use is other players.

That said, I think what Bronson is getting at is that "anti-ganking" presents a unique combat opporotunity and it would be intersting to find a way to make it work. Whether a gank victim benefits or suffers as a result is inconsequential. You could debate the merits and methods of helping bad players endlessly, but in the context of curiosity it really doesn't matter.

At least, that's the way I read it.


I agree with that - there's a unique combat opportunity to be had - and the New Order has a long history of actually helping "anti-ganking" movements with the goal of more pew pew and fun for everyone, but we run into the same problem every single time, and it goes down the exact same path literally every single time.

1) Group of players come together with the goal of fighting New Order players (after all, most of us are -10 security status and can literally be shot at any time, anywhere, by anyone).

2) Group grows and begins to take in toxic members of the EVE community who lost a ship or other assets to the New Order at some point, and who are so angry about these losses that they have literally forgotten EVE is a video game and will justify things like comparing the New Order to a specific deceased German leader all while equating shooting internet spaceships in a video game about shooting internet spaceships to all manner of disturbing real world behaviors or mental conditions.

3) All serious members of group leave and give up due to not wanting to spend time with toxic elements of the community lest they be associated with players of this caliber.

4) At least a few of these former members join the New Order and have a great time flying with us.

Now, of course, this all sounds like nothing but a win for the New Order (and after all, the New Order does ALWAYS win - this is just basic game mechanics) - but honorable warriors like us crave challenge and fun. We have tried to get involved in every step of this process to prevent the community implosion that every anti ganking community falls under, as we crave a challenge and grow tired of seeing these communities become their own worst enemies.

I think what it comes down to is simply fun. You're not going to find many players who will find waiting around for hours for others to create content that they have but a small chance of being part of "fun", where as high-sec ganking is literally some of the most LOL filled and "fun" you can have in high-sec. I have no idea how to fix this, but would like to see changes made to allow the players themselves to perhaps fill the role by boring NPC groups such as the Factional Police, and more players being given the chance to engage us in combat. After all, we are all PVP junkies who crave good fights all day!
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#50 - 2014-08-21 19:40:17 UTC
Did you by any chance have some mushrooms today?

Just wondering.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-08-21 20:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ned Thomas
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
I'm all for teaching new players new things. Relatively speaking, I'm brand new to the game myself and the greatest source of information I've been privaleged to use is other players.

That said, I think what Bronson is getting at is that "anti-ganking" presents a unique combat opporotunity and it would be intersting to find a way to make it work. Whether a gank victim benefits or suffers as a result is inconsequential. You could debate the merits and methods of helping bad players endlessly, but in the context of curiosity it really doesn't matter.

At least, that's the way I read it.


I agree with that - there's a unique combat opportunity to be had - and the New Order has a long history of actually helping "anti-ganking" movements with the goal of more pew pew and fun for everyone, but we run into the same problem every single time, and it goes down the exact same path literally every single time.

1) Group of players come together with the goal of fighting New Order players (after all, most of us are -10 security status and can literally be shot at any time, anywhere, by anyone).

2) Group grows and begins to take in toxic members of the EVE community who lost a ship or other assets to the New Order at some point, and who are so angry about these losses that they have literally forgotten EVE is a video game and will justify things like comparing the New Order to a specific deceased German leader all while equating shooting internet spaceships in a video game about shooting internet spaceships to all manner of disturbing real world behaviors or mental conditions.

3) All serious members of group leave and give up due to not wanting to spend time with toxic elements of the community lest they be associated with players of this caliber.

4) At least a few of these former members join the New Order and have a great time flying with us.

Now, of course, this all sounds like nothing but a win for the New Order (and after all, the New Order does ALWAYS win - this is just basic game mechanics) - but honorable warriors like us crave challenge and fun. We have tried to get involved in every step of this process to prevent the community implosion that every anti ganking community falls under, as we crave a challenge and grow tired of seeing these communities become their own worst enemies.

I think what it comes down to is simply fun. You're not going to find many players who will find waiting around for hours for others to create content that they have but a small chance of being part of "fun", where as high-sec ganking is literally some of the most LOL filled and "fun" you can have in high-sec. I have no idea how to fix this, but would like to see changes made to allow the players themselves to perhaps fill the role by boring NPC groups such as the Factional Police, and more players being given the chance to engage us in combat. After all, we are all PVP junkies who crave good fights all day!


Edit: well thats weird, my reply got eaten.
Hannibal Crusoe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-08-22 02:04:02 UTC
Congrats to the OP for this thread.
Each of us have these core motivations in eve.
Most players crave some metric like isk or a heavy kill board .
Some of us, myself included, enjoy things that are not so easily measured.
These metric driven players are always confused with those of us in CODE.
And they attempt to formulate very linear methods to foil us.

I say all of this to illuminate that your proposal is catering to the non metric player.
And from that I doubt many will follow your idea.

I do appreciate your use of mechanics in this idea.

Ride a white mare in the footsteps of dawn
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2014-08-22 02:10:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Tengu Grib wrote:
I know repping war targets does get you a suspect timer, and repping awoxers does not. So repping gank victims does NOT produce a suspect flag? Hmm. I must have misread when that was brought up in the past. Makes me feel better about abusing remote reps while awoxing. Maybe if we abuse it enough CCP will actually fix it.

The flagging system is quite simple, you inherit all flags from the target(s) you are repping, both type and duration, including the 1 minute weapons timers. If you are repping a target without any flags you will not inherit any (incursion logi will often fall into this category for example, gaining only the NPC aggression timer).

If a target is being suicide ganked it stands to reason that they have no suspect/criminal/limited engagement flaggings or it would make them a legal target and therefore not a suicide gank. If it were not this way I suspect the high sec incursion runners would be non-existent because flying logi would require you to take suspect timers at all times. Wrecks left by criminal pilots who are killed by CONCORD also leave abandoned wrecks (blue) and so looting them will not get you a suspect timer either. According to the game your criminal status negates your claim to the things in your wreck.

The suspect timer for repping targets who are at war is a result of out of corp logistics being used to fight high sec wars where anyone wishing to fight someone with a neutral logistics is forced to shoot the war ship first before the logistics becomes a legal target and even then the logi would become a legal target ONLY for pilots who shot the target he was actively repping. Which means that if the logi started to pick up aggression to too many ships, he'd simply dock his war ship and his logi and wait out the timers. At the same time if you tried to fight neutral logi by undocking too many at once or had too many in system at all, he'd simply refuse to fight anything (in my experience this issue was pretty much 100% station games). So by going suspect now, it allows your intended victim to undock all their things to come kill your logi straight away or even use an out of corp gank squad to remove that logi for him, your inherited weapons timer for repping an aggressed ship will also prevent you from docking your logi to save it.

The reason you do not get suspect flagged for repping an awoxer is because intra-corp aggression is legal at all times, hence you do not take any suspect or criminal flags for attacking corpmates and since it is not a war there is no suspect flag even for repping with neutral logi, you haven't stumbled upon an exploit here and the "issue" is solved by being careful about who you allow to join your corp. The change to repping war targets and inherited timers was to close an existing loophole. There is no such loophole with awoxers.

Incidentally, the idea in the OP will work, a pack of cheap T1 Logi Cruisers orbiting the intended target will drastically increase the number of ships required to gank it and gank ships are minimally fit to minimize cost and so they will be ill-equipped to dealing with a pack of spread out logi ships that outpace them. If you must get on mails try to use EC-300s in your drone bay to further increase the chances of saving your friend.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-08-22 02:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
2) Group grows and begins to take in toxic members of the EVE community who lost a ship or other assets to the New Order at some point, and who are so angry about these losses that they have literally forgotten EVE is a video game and will justify things like comparing the New Order to a specific deceased German leader all while equating shooting internet spaceships in a video game about shooting internet spaceships to all manner of disturbing real world behaviors or mental conditions.

This is kind of a big one for me. I used to play boxing and rugby and I view playing EVE in much the same way I used to see getting in the ring or on the field. I'm not setting out specifically to injure anyone but hitting people is part of the game we are playing and if you get hurt I will feel badly about it but I will not feel guilty about it. Everyone who plays games like that knows the risks and since I have not deliberately hurt anyone, I will not feel guilty about it. You may not want to see another player injured but you don't stop playing hard to avoid it either and things happen.

In my mind empathy is for bad situations, guilt requires harmful intent.

The same applies to EVE. I'm not logging in specifically to go after anyone in an attempt to get them mad or ruin their day. Blowing things up and getting blown up are simply part of the deal you sign by logging in. If you did something foolish and lost everything you own I might feel bad about your situation but I won't feel guilty for blowing up your ship in the first place. That being said I rarely gank in high sec because for lack of a better description, I feel it's unsporting and I am thoroughly unimpressed by the crocodile tears of anyone who loses a ship with a warp disruptor fitted in particular, no matter where it happens. Warp disruptors mean you came to play not sit on the sideline, so if you lose save your tears for the showers where you can pass them off as water.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Solecist Project
#55 - 2014-08-22 02:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Ned Thomas wrote:
I'm all for teaching new players new things. Relatively speaking, I'm brand new to the game myself and the greatest source of information I've been privaleged to use is other players.

That said, I think what Bronson is getting at is that "anti-ganking" presents a unique combat opporotunity and it would be intersting to find a way to make it work. Whether a gank victim benefits or suffers as a result is inconsequential. You could debate the merits and methods of helping bad players endlessly, but in the context of curiosity it really doesn't matter.

At least, that's the way I read it.

If the failures of "anti-ganking" actually cared about "anti-ganking" it would be a start ...
... but they don't. They care about themselves and their weak minds only.

Hell... I wrote something on my blog about how to possibly stop freighters from getting bumped...
... you'd think they try, right? It would work... but do they care? Nope. A bunch of freakin',
lowlife haters... that's all they are. I tried helping these asshats and all i got was muted and kicked
for not letting myself get talked down on all day.

the mods are biased and clueless about people and the whole movement is part of an agenda
of a strict carebear who would ban points and scrams if he could! Read so on his site.

If you wanna do "anti-ganking", the best you can do as a first step is to avoid these Waschlappen
and instead start your own thing with people actually worth the oxygen they consume.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#56 - 2014-08-22 03:21:57 UTC
Yeah, reading through that, I just couldn't understand why it has to be that hard.

Here, I'll do this Gauntlet Style.

"Blue Hauler is now IT!"

"Blue Hauler needs food... badly"

And if nothing happens...

"Blue Hauler has died"

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#57 - 2014-08-22 03:51:40 UTC
Logic now stuns other players.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#58 - 2014-08-22 05:47:55 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
I'm all for teaching new players new things. Relatively speaking, I'm brand new to the game myself and the greatest source of information I've been privaleged to use is other players.

That said, I think what Bronson is getting at is that "anti-ganking" presents a unique combat opporotunity and it would be intersting to find a way to make it work. Whether a gank victim benefits or suffers as a result is inconsequential. You could debate the merits and methods of helping bad players endlessly, but in the context of curiosity it really doesn't matter.

At least, that's the way I read it.


I agree with that - there's a unique combat opportunity to be had - and the New Order has a long history of actually helping "anti-ganking" movements with the goal of more pew pew and fun for everyone, but we run into the same problem every single time, and it goes down the exact same path literally every single time.

1) Group of players come together with the goal of fighting New Order players (after all, most of us are -10 security status and can literally be shot at any time, anywhere, by anyone).

2) Group grows and begins to take in toxic members of the EVE community who lost a ship or other assets to the New Order at some point, and who are so angry about these losses that they have literally forgotten EVE is a video game and will justify things like comparing the New Order to a specific deceased German leader all while equating shooting internet spaceships in a video game about shooting internet spaceships to all manner of disturbing real world behaviors or mental conditions.

3) All serious members of group leave and give up due to not wanting to spend time with toxic elements of the community lest they be associated with players of this caliber.

4) At least a few of these former members join the New Order and have a great time flying with us.

Now, of course, this all sounds like nothing but a win for the New Order (and after all, the New Order does ALWAYS win - this is just basic game mechanics) - but honorable warriors like us crave challenge and fun. We have tried to get involved in every step of this process to prevent the community implosion that every anti ganking community falls under, as we crave a challenge and grow tired of seeing these communities become their own worst enemies.

I think what it comes down to is simply fun. You're not going to find many players who will find waiting around for hours for others to create content that they have but a small chance of being part of "fun", where as high-sec ganking is literally some of the most LOL filled and "fun" you can have in high-sec. I have no idea how to fix this, but would like to see changes made to allow the players themselves to perhaps fill the role by boring NPC groups such as the Factional Police, and more players being given the chance to engage us in combat. After all, we are all PVP junkies who crave good fights all day!



Confirming this.

I actually did not believe the anti-gankers were as toxic as my fellow gankers told me they were, until I started spying on their channel.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#59 - 2014-08-22 06:50:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yeah, reading through that, I just couldn't understand why it has to be that hard.

Here, I'll do this Gauntlet Style.

"Blue Hauler is now IT!"

"Blue Hauler needs food... badly"

And if nothing happens...

"Blue Hauler has died"


You just made my day and during this unscheduled downtime I just plugged in my commodore 64 and am now rocking red warrior, and I DO NOT EVEN NEED FOOD AS I AM THAT PRO :P

+1 throwing money at the screen
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#60 - 2014-08-22 06:52:55 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


I actually did not believe the anti-gankers were as toxic as my fellow gankers told me they were, until I started spying on their channel.



Neither did I.

Many players can tell you how much time I invested actually trying to help said "anti-ganking" community, organize community events, have fun with them, enjoy internet spaceship pew pew with them - and the result was always the same. Rage, homophobia, sadness, tears, more rage, insanity, and the whole gambit of the most depressing parts about the entire human condition.

I gave up. It's best to just shoot the foul mouthed carebear, talking to them is pointless. Wait for them to learn to be polite and decent, then speak to them.