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CCP Response Regarding SOMER Blink Concerns

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crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Ribbit.
#581 - 2014-08-21 16:50:54 UTC
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!

To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.

The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.
John Ending
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2014-08-21 16:51:35 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!

To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.

The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.

security@ccpgames GO
Paranoid Lunatic
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#583 - 2014-08-21 16:51:55 UTC
Ok so if CCP gave the green light to TMC to pay people in isk for services rendered (articles) and TMC receives real life money for people going to his site by way of add or what have you then according to the EULA that is RMT and CCP SAYS THAT IS OK. If CCP allows any form of RMT then we will always have problems. There needs to be a rule set in stone about RMT with no exceptions. That way there will be no discretion as to what is RMT and that will cut down on all the accusations, which will in turn give CCP more time to deal with more pressing matters.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#584 - 2014-08-21 16:54:02 UTC
MRS AWSOME COOL wrote:
Ah fair enough. In that case is there an actual explicit statement on what is or is not ok? Because the EULA itself is extremely ambiguous and doesn't cover any of the stuff just mentioned.


Ask CCP Falcon to direct you to it.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#585 - 2014-08-21 16:55:05 UTC
MRS AWSOME COOL wrote:
On 'TheMittani' The EULA States:

B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.

The Mittani.com pays its contributes with in game currency, and then profits in ad revenue from the content thereby generated. This does not appear to be straight forward RMT. However, it is exchanging in game items for out of game services. Essentially isk is being sold in exchange for out of game labor (which then generates real life income).

It does not specify in the EULA that only direct monitory transactions are prohibited. Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that it also covers transactions involving non liquid assets and services as well. Especially considering the following: if someone was wealthy out of game and decided to, say, bankroll an alliance by offering (non- monetary) services or assets to an individual who was wealthy in game in exchange for isk, then CCP would likely appeal to this clause when taking sanctions against the involved players. However, unless the clause is read in such away that it extends to non-monetary out of game goods and services it is not clear that they would be able to. If this reading of the EULA is correct then it appears that themittani.com violates it.

Thus it appears that another popular eve website may have been violating the eve EULA for years as well (also in order to generate real life revenue).

Edit: There is no mention in the EULA of exceptions for services which relate in some way to eve. Thus as the EULA stands the mittani seems to be in violation of it. Perhaps CCP should be clearer about what sorts of goods and services can and cannot be exchanged for in game items.


A thirty two page thread with fifteen of those being pure goon spurge.

Yup. They're in a panic. They're doing their best to control the narrative, but they just don't have the smarts for it.

Mr Epeen Cool
MRS AWSOME COOL
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2014-08-21 16:55:11 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!

To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.

The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.

I'm no goon lover, but that picture appears to be pretty old (since reddit no longer links Mittani articles), and the SA thing doesn't appear to be RMT either since the money is not going to people who make the decisions in game. Its like starting a corp for people at your university - that should be ok, even though you have to pay a tuition fee to be a member fo the university.
crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Ribbit.
#587 - 2014-08-21 16:57:51 UTC
MRS AWSOME COOL wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!

To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.

The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.

I'm no goon lover, but that picture appears to be pretty old (since reddit no longer links Mittani articles), and the SA thing doesn't appear to be RMT either since the money is not going to people who make the decisions in game. Its like starting a corp for people at your university - that should be ok, even though you have to pay a tuition fee to be a member fo the university.



If you watch the video CCP - Soundwave clearly states unmumbled "You HAVE to be a member of SomethingAwful" how is that not understood?
MRS AWSOME COOL
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#588 - 2014-08-21 17:04:21 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
MRS AWSOME COOL wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!

To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.

The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.

I'm no goon lover, but that picture appears to be pretty old (since reddit no longer links Mittani articles), and the SA thing doesn't appear to be RMT either since the money is not going to people who make the decisions in game. Its like starting a corp for people at your university - that should be ok, even though you have to pay a tuition fee to be a member fo the university.



If you watch the video CCP - Soundwave clearly states unmumbled "You HAVE to be a member of SomethingAwful" how is that not understood?

I don't see your point. What if I was at he university of x and wanted to hang out in game wit other people from my university. So I start a corp with the explicit requirement that you have to be at the university of x to get in. Now, you have to pay tuition fees to be a member of the university of x. However, none of those fees go to me, so it doesn't look like in game items (or whatever) are being exchanged for out of game products or services. This seems directly analogous to Goons and SA.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#589 - 2014-08-21 17:05:36 UTC
John Ending wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!

To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.

The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.

security@ccpgames GO


I was hoping that you or someone else would have pointed out that the SA forums isn't just for EvE Online players and that people that use the SA forums play other games other than EvE online.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#590 - 2014-08-21 17:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrick Tallardar
crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s


As it was explained to you. Paying for an SA account doesn't immediately qualify you for membership in GoonSwarm. Nor does any of that money go anywhere near to support or fund GoonSwarm's in-game activites. Until you can actually prove the $10/account (and other fees) actually do so, you're making one heck of a conjecture.

You're also missing that SA is an internet community much like sites such as OffTopic.com, Reddit, NeoGaf etc. except they have a paywall for their own purported reasons and rationale. There are 180k+ members of SomethingAwful and not all of them play EVE so again, you're missing the mark entirely.

crimsonshank wrote:
and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!


I'm happy you're openly admitting you want to see people banned for non-violations of the EULA/TOS and for actions that don't violate any of the rules based off faulty, incompletely, and poorly supported assumptions made by you. As stated, that image isn't representative of TMC's policy post SomgerGate 1.0 when they, along with other sites, were given clear guidelines to operate by. That however, seems to not matter to you which is telling.

crimsonshank wrote:
To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.


So, you're now just going for brazen insults and ad hominem which is against EULA/TOS. Perhaps you should be banned from the forums permanently as this is one of numerous examples. I mean, fair is fair right? You also don't need to have an SA account to join Goons.

Here's some examples:

Enlightened Industries - Formerly of TEST, now part of GoonSwarm Federation.

Bat Country - Formerly of Vanguard, now part of GoonSwarm Federation.

Black Omega Security - Formerly of Pandemic Legion, now part of GoonSwarm Federation.

Graduate Investments - Formerly of RAZOR, now part of GoonSwarm Federation.

That's four different corps that make up GoonSwarm that were admitted into their group without requiring an SA account as you claim. There are members in GoonWaffe who are in there without having an SA account nor requiring to have one to be a member. Please stop making things up and claiming them as fact, you end up looking silly when you do.

crimsonshank wrote:
The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.


No. The text shows you can get compensated for writing an Astronomy related article but the specific payment isn't outlined. You're making assumptions and conclusions based off limited evidence and simply are filling in the holes to serve your own need. Still though, if you are so upset and so sure it's a giant RMT scheme then contact Support@CCPGames.com

Also the ad hominem doesn't really do you any favors and just shows you're too immature to have a conversation with but hey, I guess that was your goal.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#591 - 2014-08-21 17:09:39 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
John Ending wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?

Goon lovers go ahead rebut the claims its in black and white and clearly stated and even on video!

To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.

The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month, what does Astronomy have to do with Eve? Nothing now Goon lovers take off the Arabian sun goggles open your eyes the evidence doesn't lie.

security@ccpgames GO


I was hoping that you or someone else would have pointed out that the SA forums isn't just for EvE Online players and that people that use the SA forums play other games other than EvE online.


That's already been done, in this thread, by me and others. They're choosing to ignore that or handwaving it away.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#592 - 2014-08-21 17:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Paranoid Lunatic wrote:
Ok so if CCP gave the green light to TMC to pay people in isk for services rendered (articles) and TMC receives real life money for people going to his site by way of add or what have you then according to the EULA that is RMT and CCP SAYS THAT IS OK.
No, that is not RMT.
That is monetising your out-of-game content with out-of-game advertising. This is entirely allowed. It is not RMT for the simple reason that there is no connection between the out-of-game transaction and the in-game transaction. It is also not RMT because it is EVE-related.

crimsonshank wrote:
The evidence is concrete that Goons are participating in RMT between the video http://youtu.be/j1sdTzj9iac?t=4m55s

and the image http://i.imgur.com/sCn0H1u.jpg how much more evidence is needed to get the ball rolling into an investigation to get bans handed out appropriately and swiftly?
…and the RMT is…?

Quote:
To break it down for the goon lovers with Mattani's balls over their eyes like Arabian Sun Goggles In the video it clearly states to join Goons you need an SA account, now in order to get the account with SA you have to pay $10, so you need to pay $10 to join Goons which is RMT.
No. Paying $10 to lowtax to be allowed to make a mess on his forums is not RMT because there is no in-game component of that forum membership. By your logic, playing EVE is RMT because you have to pay your ISP for your internet connection, and in return you get to acquire ISK in EVE.
Mark Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#593 - 2014-08-21 17:14:07 UTC
Yeah the more and more I think about I think paying ISK for a service that can in turn generate RL revenue should be a no-no. If you want to pay ISK for a service and it gives ZERO financial incentive, cool. The moment it can in ANY way be monetized is where things start getting crazy.

That sucks obviously because it is very common practice to have advertising and sponsorship deals on the web and in applications, but if that's the case then pay your writers real cash, or hope they like to work for nothing.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#594 - 2014-08-21 17:14:31 UTC
Paranoid Lunatic wrote:
Ok so if CCP gave the green light to TMC to pay people in isk for services rendered (articles) and TMC receives real life money for people going to his site by way of add or what have you then according to the EULA that is RMT and CCP SAYS THAT IS OK. If CCP allows any form of RMT then we will always have problems. There needs to be a rule set in stone about RMT with no exceptions. That way there will be no discretion as to what is RMT and that will cut down on all the accusations, which will in turn give CCP more time to deal with more pressing matters.


I suggest you read what CCP say about allowing to run ads on a site you own, and paying your contributors ISK for their EVE related content the site hosts. This line of thinking is highly flawed. Anyone creating YouTube videos with monetization is, in your flawed assumption of the policies CCP outline, would constitute RMT. Never mind that CCP have said you can monetize your EVE videos and provided their outline as to such.

Still though, if you and others are so dead set that TMC, EN24 etc. are all RMTng and breaking CCP's rules then contact CCP and explain how, why, and provide supporting evidence. Calling something RMTng doesn't make it automatically RMTng though.
crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Ribbit.
#595 - 2014-08-21 17:15:48 UTC



No. The text shows you can get compensated for writing an Astronomy related article but the specific payment isn't outlined. You're making assumptions and conclusions based off limited evidence and simply are filling in the holes to serve your own need. Still though, if you are so upset and so sure it's a giant RMT scheme then contact Support@CCPGames.com

So the only compensation ever stated from TMC is ISK but your not willing to acknowledge that?

So heres how it looks If I wrote an article about the big dipper according to that image and I got the most views out of everyone who writes for TMC I get Compensated an extra 1bil isk how is the compensation not outlined?
Mark Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#596 - 2014-08-21 17:20:31 UTC
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Paranoid Lunatic wrote:
Ok so if CCP gave the green light to TMC to pay people in isk for services rendered (articles) and TMC receives real life money for people going to his site by way of add or what have you then according to the EULA that is RMT and CCP SAYS THAT IS OK. If CCP allows any form of RMT then we will always have problems. There needs to be a rule set in stone about RMT with no exceptions. That way there will be no discretion as to what is RMT and that will cut down on all the accusations, which will in turn give CCP more time to deal with more pressing matters.


I suggest you read what CCP say about allowing to run ads on a site you own, and paying your contributors ISK for their EVE related content the site hosts. This line of thinking is highly flawed. Anyone creating YouTube videos with monetization is, in your flawed assumption of the policies CCP outline, would constitute RMT. Never mind that CCP have said you can monetize your EVE videos and provided their outline as to such.

Still though, if you and others are so dead set that TMC, EN24 etc. are all RMTng and breaking CCP's rules then contact CCP and explain how, why, and provide supporting evidence. Calling something RMTng doesn't make it automatically RMTng though.


I think the key difference in videos you generate or get for no in-game items and then monetize is different. There is nothing stopping streamers, or capture crowd from generating those videos then monetizing them on a platform. However if they paid ISK to make content happen so that they could record then monetize, that would be different.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#597 - 2014-08-21 17:23:32 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
So the only compensation ever stated from TMC is ISK but your not willing to acknowledge that?
…and that is compensation for…?

Quote:
If I wrote an article about the big dipper according to that image and I got the most views out of everyone who writes for TMC I get Compensated an extra 1bil isk how is the compensation not outlined?
…except that the message doesn't say that. You are filling in a lot of details and assuming a context that simply isn't there.
Fredlah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#598 - 2014-08-21 17:26:19 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:


So the only compensation ever stated from TMC is ISK but your not willing to acknowledge that?

So heres how it looks If I wrote an article about the big dipper according to that image and I got the most views out of everyone who writes for TMC I get Compensated an extra 1bil isk how is the compensation not outlined?


A. You wouldn't get any isk because it's not EVE related

B. You continue to refer to that image which is based on completely old policies and is now out-dated.

How many different people need to point that fact out to you before you stop beating a dead horse?
KayleInara
Perkone
Caldari State
#599 - 2014-08-21 17:28:43 UTC
Mark Munoz wrote:

That sucks obviously because it is very common practice to have advertising and sponsorship deals on the web and in applications, but if that's the case then pay your writers real cash, or hope they like to work for nothing.


They are working for nothing. Isk has no value (try paying your utility bills with it).
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#600 - 2014-08-21 17:29:58 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
So the only compensation ever stated from TMC is ISK but your not willing to acknowledge that?

So heres how it looks If I wrote an article about the big dipper according to that image and I got the most views out of everyone who writes for TMC I get Compensated an extra 1bil isk how is the compensation not outlined?


No, but again you're making a really good job of jumping to conclusions. TMC pays their staff that write about EVE IP in ISK. Anything written outside of EVE IP is covered in a different way. For example, and this isn't explicitly what TMC do but you'll just assume it is and make claims based off of it anyway, the development of the front end site design, coding etc. can be compensated for with real money raised through the site's ads. So can things like non-EVE related video editing for coverage of a non-EVE game etc. Whether or not TMC opts to disclose that information to public is their prerogative but that doesn't automatically mean all articles are compensated for with in-game ISK regardless of if the article is pertaining to EVE IP or not.

Your example is also flawed because per TMC's internal policy, and by CCP's guidelines, you can't be compensated with in-game ISK for a non-EVE contribution to the site. Whether you actually believe that is entirely up to you, but given that I'm a former contributor and former Senior Videos Editor for the site I'd probably have more understanding of how they operate than you do. Still though, as I've been saying to you and the other people decrying TMC as an RMT scheme, contact CCP's Security and Community Management teams raising those concerns and see what they say.