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L4 Runner : Marauder ?
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Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#61 - 2014-08-04 14:12:58 UTC
Gorr Shakor wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
...Hell, once I lost an alts Drake with proper hardeners to L4 rats with max skill Scimi boosting it with all it got. That is equivalent of running four XL T2 boosters locally...


OT, but how did you manage that? Shocked

gurista assault could do it in the last room, aggress all groups and immediately spawm 4th group by attack bs of middle group.

or blockade if you spawn all triggers one after the other and let the elite frigs get within point range.

world collide, aggress all angel ships in last room as they are at 0 (not sure if there is pointing frigs)

recon 1 (dont kill anything, just sit there)

I think there might be some faction missions (never ran those) or a few others you can screw up the triggers on

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2014-08-04 15:24:28 UTC
Qalix wrote:
marauder in L4's is over the top. It's only benefit over the T1 BS is tank. You just don't need that much tank in the majority of missions you'll run. The few that maybe, maybe you need that kind of tank can be run with a bit of range managment just fine with a T1 BS.

Actually the main reason to use a Marauder for L4's is the ewar immunity. Jamming and sensor damping can really slow you down. Going with drones or FoF missiles as a counter removes your ability to choose targets in both cases, which makes blitzing harder, and hurts your DPS in the case of FoF missiles. If you are skilled for turrets then tracking disruption is an issue as well.

Even in Lanngisi where you face mostly Angles with their harmless painters you will still see Serpents with damps now and then. And of course Dread Pirate Scarlet can throw anything at you.

I'm not saying that T1 and pirate BS's aren't good for L4 missions, the Raven/CNR, Dominix, RS, NM, and Mach are great. Its just that Marauders have a place too and its all about trade offs and choices. Which is exactly how it should be.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#63 - 2014-08-04 18:56:27 UTC
Quote:
marauder in L4's is over the top. It's only benefit over the T1 BS is tank. You just don't need that much tank in the majority of missions you'll run. The few that maybe, maybe you need that kind of tank can be run with a bit of range managment just fine with a T1 BS.


Battleships can't run missions with 2 slot tanks. They need slots for ECCM. They take 7 or 8 high slots. You need a REALLY pimp BS to match a Marauder in completion time, and you have to swap fits for different missions.

There's certainly more than one advantage.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#64 - 2014-08-05 07:24:43 UTC
Gorr Shakor wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
...Hell, once I lost an alts Drake with proper hardeners to L4 rats with max skill Scimi boosting it with all it got. That is equivalent of running four XL T2 boosters locally...


OT, but how did you manage that? Shocked



The list couple posts up is pretty accurate in that regard. Enemies Abound (a caldari mission against gallente) series can be also particularly brutal and there is a drone mission with 4 triggers - if you kill em all at once and are in the right spot so all spawns are immediately in their optimals the dps can be significant as well.

In that particular case which I mentioned it was Angels / Sansha Worlds Collide second stage and the "buddy agro" feature. Immediately upon warp in grabbing full stage agro with absolutely everything piling on that one ship by shooting the spy frigate with any other entity than the one they are agressed on. And some unluck as well ofc. Getting 6 points on you is not that common. I believe I got 3 of these points killed before drake went down and at that point I bailed with everything else (which was much more expensive) and returned a little while later with some very properly tanked brick to throw in first to grab their attention.

Perhaps if I would have focused first on dps I might have managed to get enough of it down to survive in low hull with that drake.

Anyway - the point I was trying to make is that overconfidence kills. Even in hi sec lev 4 missions. I do get reminded of it every once in a while when I slip ;) Usually in a far more expensive format than just losing a drake. TBH I have lost more ships over the last 5 years to hi sec lev 4 missions than to players or NPC's in null sec when doing PvE content there.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Zierohour
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-08-05 11:16:38 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you intend to run missions in minmatar or amarr space, take the vargur, else kronos. i'm not a fan of artillery and rails on marauders, because there are barely any missions where you cannot profit from the higher dps of close range weapons by careful maneuvering.


You know.. because paladins are **** compared to kronos right? gtfo of here, your dps doesn't mean **** if your tank and field clear (looting ability) are not on par aswell. Paper dps does not = king, not even close.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#66 - 2014-08-05 11:33:29 UTC
Zierohour wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you intend to run missions in minmatar or amarr space, take the vargur, else kronos. i'm not a fan of artillery and rails on marauders, because there are barely any missions where you cannot profit from the higher dps of close range weapons by careful maneuvering.


You know.. because paladins are **** compared to kronos right? gtfo of here, your dps doesn't mean **** if your tank and field clear (looting ability) are not on par aswell. Paper dps does not = king, not even close.


The best way to win such a slapfight is to compare numbers which are backed up by the logs. So pick a mission that you get often in the same system and which is reasonably "average" by travel characteristics and NPC composition wise. Then measure your speed from undock to dock with completed mission objective over, say 5 or more iterations. Or just keep track of travel time separately and measure it from first gate activation to the last warp out message (all this can be found in combat logs)

One such mission would be in my opinion Worlds Collide. It offers wide variety of engagement ranges, alltogehter approx 60 km of travel over 3 stages (with option to do a 4th as well if you want) and can need significant amount of tank and is not easily blitzable.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-08-05 17:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: NIFTYGetAtMe
Carniflex wrote:
Zierohour wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you intend to run missions in minmatar or amarr space, take the vargur, else kronos. i'm not a fan of artillery and rails on marauders, because there are barely any missions where you cannot profit from the higher dps of close range weapons by careful maneuvering.


You know.. because paladins are **** compared to kronos right? gtfo of here, your dps doesn't mean **** if your tank and field clear (looting ability) are not on par aswell. Paper dps does not = king, not even close.


The best way to win such a slapfight is to compare numbers which are backed up by the logs. So pick a mission that you get often in the same system and which is reasonably "average" by travel characteristics and NPC composition wise. Then measure your speed from undock to dock with completed mission objective over, say 5 or more iterations. Or just keep track of travel time separately and measure it from first gate activation to the last warp out message (all this can be found in combat logs)

One such mission would be in my opinion Worlds Collide. It offers wide variety of engagement ranges, alltogehter approx 60 km of travel over 3 stages (with option to do a 4th as well if you want) and can need significant amount of tank and is not easily blitzable.

Or you could just stop min/maxing, buy a ship you really like, fit properly with your desired amount of bling and try to have a little fun doing missions. You know, stop worrying about which does it better and just worry about which you like the most? Min/maxing or striving for proficiency is honestly the most boring possible way to play EVE.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#68 - 2014-08-05 18:26:42 UTC
Quote:
Or you could just stop min/maxing, buy a ship you really like, fit properly with your desired amount of bling and try to have a little fun doing missions. You know, stop worrying about which does it better and just worry about which you like the most? Min/maxing or striving for proficiency is honestly the most boring possible way to play EVE.


Spot on.

Just made a post yesterday explaining that you have to be able to squeeze one more mission into your playtime to be able to actually see the increase in ISK/hour.

I.E. you're playing for 3 hours. One ship has 1200 DPS and the other has 975. If you cant fit an extra mission into the 3 hour time frame the added DPS means exactly **** all.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#69 - 2014-08-05 19:33:26 UTC
I would not go as far as to say that the hi sec lev 4 missions are fun. Dunno - perhaps in AF. But if you are doing them with any kind of reasonable effectivity they are just grind for getting isk to go have fun with. Especially in marauder.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
nVus Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-08-05 21:44:46 UTC
Golem's torp range with Rage torps in bastion mode is 44.6km & 80.2km with Javelin. Just adding this to this debate as it was quoted wrong in an earlier post.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#71 - 2014-08-06 16:47:30 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
marauder in L4's is over the top. It's only benefit over the T1 BS is tank. You just don't need that much tank in the majority of missions you'll run. The few that maybe, maybe you need that kind of tank can be run with a bit of range managment just fine with a T1 BS.


Battleships can't run missions with 2 slot tanks. They need slots for ECCM. They take 7 or 8 high slots. You need a REALLY pimp BS to match a Marauder in completion time, and you have to swap fits for different missions.

There's certainly more than one advantage.

That certainly is an additional advantage. I don't know that you NEED eccm nor do I think you NEED a pimp BS. I've done lots of L4s and epic arcs in t2 cruise ravens with no eccm, no bling (well, one ded mod), and no hardener switching. Since I only got below half tank a dozen or so times over 4 years, I'm not sure it would matter if I used the slots for eccm instead of my MWD and/or MJD and/or painter. I'd love to see some run time numbers for comparison though. Perhaps some industrious person (*cough*stoicfaux*cough*) could add that to their "to do" list.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#72 - 2014-08-06 19:37:20 UTC
ECCM is essential if you want the quickest mission completion times.

If you are flying a golem or drone boat against Sanshas it doesn't matter at all, just about everything else it scales.

Serpentis will drop your range, sanshas will drop your tracking. Guristas will stop you from targeting at all. It varies from mission to mission so without a lot of data points its hard to pinpoint, unless you've actually tried it both ways.

In a gun boat in "The assault" (Serpentis), its the difference between a 7 million bounty tick and 11 million.

In "Dread Pirate Whorepants" it can be the difference between 25 minutes and 45 minutes completion time.

In Sanshas Blockade, its the difference between warping out and completing the mission in one shot, unless you have a 2k tank, which is ridiculous.

In Guristas Assault, you'll be warping out of the second room with no ECCM, which blows heavily IMHO.

Gone Berserk it doesn't matter, Damsel, any other Drone and or merc missions.

Basically overkill tank kills utility slots, ECCM uses them up. Utility slots dont add DPS but they help mission completion times. My vargur has a nano in the low, MWD and MJD. My golem has MWD, MJD, 2 TP and a web. Pally gets 3 TC and 3 heat sinks. And again the high slots. It adds up quickly.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Armor Uta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-08-07 01:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Armor Uta
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Qalix wrote:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
If you show me a T1 BS able to deal 800 DPS @85km / 1400 DPS @ 35km, able to salvage on the go, I'm ok to say that the only thing a Marauder has that's better than a T1 BS is the tank. Good luck.

Challenge accepted.


Which challenge has been accepted ? Your fits doesn't salvage on the go, nor they're able to pull 1400 DPS @ 35km / 800 DPS @ 85km. Plus torp DPS, on a single target painted cruiser, is simply ridiculous. You'll be faster with an AF.

By the way, I don't care about the 'is the Marauder worth' debate. The question was clear, about choosing between a Vargur and a Kronos. Daniel Plain and Carniflex were the only one able to answer something intresting, with valid arguments. If you want to ask to the community if a Marauder is, or isn't better than a T1 BS, open a topic about it, quote this one, but keep things clear here, thanks.


well just to add this into the mix, a rattler hull is only ~440m. With level 5 skills you can easily push out 1500 dps with T2 cruise missles and garde/gecko just with a t2 fit. Your only real bling would be a nice shield booster (gist or pith around 200-400m) and the faction DDA/ navy BCS. Maybe 2 pith c type invuls if you don't want to switch out resists all the time but I just stick to rat specific shield hardeners and it works out fine. I

Typically I take rat specific sentry drones(wardens, bouncer, curator), 2 gardes, 1 gecko, flight of lights. Gecko with 2 tracking speed script on omnis and TP can pretty much take out almost every frig but occasionally I will use the lights if I don't want to wait out omni cycle to switch from optimal range scripts to tracking speed. Typically target frigs/cruiser with sentries and BS/elite cruisers with cruise and TP. MOst frigs die in 1 volley an cruisers go down fairly fast. If a BS spawns within 30 km or so the garde/gecko + cruise missle damage is insane. They typically die in about 3 volleys of cruise missle + drone dps.

As for salvaging you can carry a mobile depot + MTU + salvagers andmaybe some salvage drones if you want. You drop MTU , clear rats, and can use depot to get some salvage drones if you want and to switch high slots to salvagers. You wont have enough space for the loots and will need to bookmark and come with another ship but you can definitely salvage on the go if needed.

This is the fit I use moderately blinged it comes up tot 1.3 bil total (hull + modules cost) with 1500+ dps (1645 at all level 5 skills), and about ~ 500dps tank for kin/therm rats and ~350 for em/therm. This is with Gist-A booster, using the pith variety is a lot more pulse tanking but cap will only last around 2.40 minutes. Gist lasts around 6 min so I prefer that for more breathing room . You can take out one large warhead rigor I and add a Large anti EM screen to have bit more tank for EM/therm rats.

Highs:
6x Cruise Missle Launcher II
1x Drone link Augmentor II (black eagle is only 2000m more, not worth the money imo)

Mid:
1x Target Painter (republic fleet TP only ~ 18m)
2x omnidirectional tracking link (federation navy omni around 45m each but T2 is only 1-2% worse)
2x rat specific shield hardeners (pith or gist variety is nice, all 4 gist-x variety shield hardeners will be around ~300m)
1x large shield booster (with a large gist A variety cap runs 6 minutes with around ~545 dps tank vs guristas not overheated)

lows
3x DDA (faction or T2)
3x BCS (faction or T2)

Rigs - this is preference but I prefer the following for damage application on cruise + drone control range.
Large Drone Control Range Augmentor I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-08-21 12:45:08 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Here's how I do it;

[Vargur, Vargur 800mm]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Domination 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x15


I don't even bother marauding with it. I use the MJD to jump into the fight instead of out. Bastion up, kill everything and repeat. Noctis alt for the cleanup. Nano in the low with the MWD for getting between gates quickly.

Just under 1100 gun DPS. 851 omnitank bursting to 1500 to 5 minutes with MWD on. Overheats to 1775 omni tank in bastion.


The fit seems nice, maybe a bit expansive, is all this deadspace / faction stuff needed ?



Qalix wrote:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Then, once again, the Marauder does not simply collect the wreck for a rapid salvage on a second go, it simply doesn't need a second go. Do you realize how much time you're loosing when you travel back to the station to pick your Noctis, salvage and go back to pick an other mission ? Put an MTU is way different than "salvage on the go". And even if you manage to fit salvagers, you won't have the cargo to loot & salvage most missions.

Whatever the value of the salvage, the LP is worth far more for your L4 calculations. Still, MTUs and dedicated salvagers are far more efficient than attempting to loot and salvage with a single missioner, tractor, and salvager on a marauder. You just can't match the speed of a dedicated noctis pilot, especially if the wrecks are all gathered in a pile and the loot in the MTU.

Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
"Challenge accepted! Here's something unrelated to the challenge! Pat my head now!" Lol Wow

Don't bother to read the rest though. Because off the cuff poasting is best poasting. All of the marauder lines work exaclty the same. Other than the specification for looting/salvaging, every marauder of every faction does no better than the T1 and faction lines in DPS. It's easy to see by just plugging it into EFT.


Why do I even bother ? No need to explain you the difference once again. Fly safe o/
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-08-21 14:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
^ my friend, that marauder is so much more expensive than it has any right to be, that its almost heartbreaking. No matter how much money you pump into the vargur it will still pop to a small group of tornados.

edit: especially considering marauders give up a large amount of total buffer in exchange for all that active tanking ability.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-08-21 14:28:10 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
^ my friend, that marauder is so much more expensive than it has any right to be, that its almost heartbreaking. No matter how much money you pump into the vargur it will still pop to a small group of tornados.

edit: especially considering marauders give up a large amount of total buffer in exchange for all that active tanking ability.


I agree, that's why I don't want to have a 3b fit. The more T2 I have, the better it is.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2014-08-29 10:18:37 UTC
how big is a small group of nados?

i think to completely alpha a vargur there would have to be what 7 or 8 of them at least possibly more.

thats quite a large group imo.

if u undock in a marauder and u see 7+ nados. dock.

also there are plenty of quiet systems off the beaten path were people can mission in peace.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-08-30 21:27:32 UTC
Vargur, cause 800mm autos are orgasmic with their damage selection.....Barrage is just the money shot when you need it Blink. Artty put me to sleep, takes a year to fire 1400mm and 10 seconds to reload the magazine....will take more shots for same effect with the autocannons. Tank is fine, going to have to look at some different mods since I think fall off got a bit of a nerf after the buff few years back (could be conspiracy theory for me, just doesn't seem like the same range though) and some of the minor faction mods I used seemed to have gone up in price more then I care to admit....only been back about 2 weeks in EVE so relearning some missions and those mods might make me target practice. Ship is mostly T2 damage wise with faction shield tank mods.

Also, recently fell in love with the Typhoon. Drone boat that can carry up to 5 heavies drones (because of their slow speed that make me cry, I just go several flights medium/light instead), fits 6 large missile launchers, armor tanked with 2 damage missile mods (might be able to drop the energized adaptive for another), and enough mid/highs for utility for drone mods (if you went a sentry boat perhaps) or target painters for cruiser missile. Light/med drones enough for most cruiser/frigs/spider drones....cruise missiles for BS...target painters make things easier to hit....Oh, and the Typhoon looks like the planet destroyer from the original Star Trek with that wide open mouth Roll
Thaylon Sen
The Boondock Saints
#79 - 2014-08-31 07:12:11 UTC
AC Vargur the way to go, Love mine and wouldn't do a lvl4 in anything else. And Qalix... Get a life.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#80 - 2014-08-31 12:52:43 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Here's how I do it;

[Vargur, Vargur 800mm]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Domination 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x15


I don't even bother marauding with it. I use the MJD to jump into the fight instead of out. Bastion up, kill everything and repeat. Noctis alt for the cleanup. Nano in the low with the MWD for getting between gates quickly.

Just under 1100 gun DPS. 851 omnitank bursting to 1500 to 5 minutes with MWD on. Overheats to 1775 omni tank in bastion.


The fit seems nice, maybe a bit expansive, is all this deadspace / faction stuff needed ?


I would say yes to the faction damage mods, maybe on the MWD (reduced cap penalty is awesome!), and nope to everything else. Gist x-l boosters have come down a lot in price, but a c-type is still about as much isk as I'd want on my ship. I would however fit a pithum c-type medium booster as they are 92m in jita right now, and give you more than enough tank for lv4s.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter