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Bring worm and gila back to reality
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Renee Chanlin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-08-07 11:41:08 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Could you elaborate as to how they're overpowered in any way?


He did. He feels that they're overpowered because of the drones, mostly in light of the recent drone buffs.

That's not to say I - or anyone - agree with him, but it should answer your question.


~600 DPS isn't even that good though? Ishtars and VNIs can push 800 with just drones, and they're both considerably cheaper.

I'd like to know why he feels the drones are overpowered, at all. There are only two of the damn things anyway.


Ishtars are heavy assault cruisers. VNIs are faction cruisers.

Worms are TECH ONE FRIGATES. Find me a tech one frigate that can do that kind of damage and be immune to ECM and you'll have presented a fair comparison.


Renee Chanlin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-08-07 11:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Renee Chanlin
The only real solution is to fly one, which I don't particularly want to do, because I like my opponents to have some sort of chance to win.
I wonder how many of the people commenting and saying the worm is not OP have actually tried to fight one in game with anything less than a massive cruiser blob at their back?
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2014-08-07 11:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Eugene Kerner wrote:

Shoot the Drones. It is simple.

Not factoring resist, you need to shoot trough 11.1k HP of Hobgoblin II drones for a Worm to be out of drones.
I think it's safe to assume that if you are flying a frigate you'll be toasted before that.

For a Gila that's 66.6k HP worth of Hammerhead II.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2014-08-07 11:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I fly them both and are nuts.

Gila: 82k EHP, 1800m/s, 921 DPS (faction drones plus T2 only)
Worm: 10k EHP, 2900m/s, 301 DPS (faction drones plus T2 only)

Both of these ships are projecting that DPS at long point range, which makes the worm that much more crazy.

The only thing I'd tangle with a worm in willingly if alone is a garmur, but even that is a nonsense because of how long it would take to kill it so one or other of us would have reinforcements in there.


Edit: And don't even look at the rattlesnake, holy hell that thing is a monstrosity,
Valkin Mordirc
#85 - 2014-08-07 11:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Odithia wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:

Shoot the Drones. It is simple.

Not factoring resist, you need to shoot trough 11.1k HP of Hobgoblin II drones for a Worm to be out of drones.
I think it's safe to assume that if you are flying a frigate you'll be toasted before that.

For a Gila that's 66.6k HP worth of Hammerhead II.



Are...are you sure about those numbers? If so then I take everything I said in this thread and they need a nerf hard. XD I didn't think the EHP on the Hammers were that high. Jesus.


EDIT: that for one drone? Or for all the drones combined? Because 400k of ehp to chew if each drone has 66k eHP.
#DeleteTheWeak
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-08-07 11:59:29 UTC
Quote:
shtars are heavy assault cruisers. VNIs are faction cruisers.

Worms are TECH ONE FRIGATES. Find me a tech one frigate that can do that kind of damage and be immune to ECM and you'll have presented a fair comparison.


WUT?
Renee Chanlin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-08-07 12:02:27 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Quote:
shtars are heavy assault cruisers. VNIs are faction cruisers.

Worms are TECH ONE FRIGATES. Find me a tech one frigate that can do that kind of damage and be immune to ECM and you'll have presented a fair comparison.


WUT?



http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/127/bd0/3f5/resized/fry-can-t-tell-meme-generator-can-t-tell-if-trolling-or-serious-f28644.jpg
Athryn Bellee
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-08-07 12:02:28 UTC
Renee Chanlin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Could you elaborate as to how they're overpowered in any way?


He did. He feels that they're overpowered because of the drones, mostly in light of the recent drone buffs.

That's not to say I - or anyone - agree with him, but it should answer your question.


~600 DPS isn't even that good though? Ishtars and VNIs can push 800 with just drones, and they're both considerably cheaper.

I'd like to know why he feels the drones are overpowered, at all. There are only two of the damn things anyway.


Ishtars are heavy assault cruisers. VNIs are faction cruisers.

Worms are TECH ONE FRIGATES. Find me a tech one frigate that can do that kind of damage and be immune to ECM and you'll have presented a fair comparison.




No it is a pirate faction ship. Did you miss the point of why they rebalanced the ships? Pirate ships are supposed to be stronger than T1 and some T2 ships of the same hull class.
Renee Chanlin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-08-07 12:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Renee Chanlin
Yes, it's a pirate faction tech 1 ship. I fly a racial faction tech 1 frig, which is a comet. They are all tech 1 frigs and supposed to be fairly much even.

Again, I ask you to find me anything that is classed as a tech one frigate, (which includes dramiels, daredevils, firetails, hookbills etc.) that can produce anything close to the stats you've seen posted for the worm on this thread.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2014-08-07 12:09:06 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:

No it is a pirate faction ship. Did you miss the point of why they rebalanced the ships? Pirate ships are supposed to be stronger than T1 and some T2 ships of the same hull class.


There is a distinct difference between "strong" and Hulk-punching™ everything.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2014-08-07 12:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:

Shoot the Drones. It is simple.

Not factoring resist, you need to shoot trough 11.1k HP of Hobgoblin II drones for a Worm to be out of drones.
I think it's safe to assume that if you are flying a frigate you'll be toasted before that.

For a Gila that's 66.6k HP worth of Hammerhead II.



Are...are you sure about those numbers? If so then I take everything I said in this thread and they need a nerf hard. XD I didn't think the EHP on the Hammers were that high. Jesus.


EDIT: that for one drone? Or for all the drones combined? Because 400k of ehp to chew if each drone has 66k eHP.

That's for the whole dronebay worth of drone.
Numbers are from EFT, disregarding shield/armor resist (most of a drone HP come from the structure anyway) and with all skills at V.
I'm too lazy to run the numbers manualy.
Renee Chanlin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-08-07 12:18:10 UTC
Y'all need to stop posting on the forums and come try to fight the things. If they're not overpowered, you should quite easily be able to solo kill one in an equivalent ship class, amiright?
Athryn Bellee
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#93 - 2014-08-07 12:20:09 UTC
Renee Chanlin wrote:
Yes, it's a pirate faction tech 1 ship. I fly a racial faction tech 1 frig, which is a comet. They are all tech 1 frigs and supposed to be fairly much even.

In this situation, "rebalancing" has left the seesaw stuck to the damn ground. Again, I ask you to find me anything that is classed as a tech one frigate, (which includes dramiels, daredevils, firetails, hookbills etc.) that can produce anything close to the stats you've seen posted for the worm on this thread.


The ship progression goes like this T1 > Navy > T2 > Pirate. This is why pirate ships have role bonuses and navy ships don't.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2014-08-07 12:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Renee Chanlin wrote:
Y'all need to stop posting on the forums and come try to fight the things. If they're not overpowered, you should quite easily be able to solo kill one in an equivalent ship class, amiright?

https://zkillboard.com/ship/17930/losses/
As you can see, Worms don't die a lot to solo frigate.


Slicer for Reference (what can be called a pretty well balanced ship)
https://zkillboard.com/ship/17703/losses/


Gila don't die much as well but 1v1 cruiser fight are much rarer than frigate duels.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/17715/losses/

If someone care to do some proper datamining...
Athryn Bellee
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-08-07 13:41:48 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Renee Chanlin wrote:
Y'all need to stop posting on the forums and come try to fight the things. If they're not overpowered, you should quite easily be able to solo kill one in an equivalent ship class, amiright?

https://zkillboard.com/ship/17930/losses/
As you can see, Worms don't die a lot to solo frigate.


Slicer for Reference (what can be called a pretty well balanced ship)
https://zkillboard.com/ship/17703/losses/


Gila don't die much as well but 1v1 cruiser fight are much rarer than frigate duels.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/17715/losses/

If someone care to do some proper datamining...


All of the pirate frigates have few solo losses. Pirate ships are supposed to be stronger than their T1 and Navy counterparts. T1 and Navy do not have role bonuses, T2 and Pirate do and have double skill bonuses.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#96 - 2014-08-07 13:53:54 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:
Renee Chanlin wrote:
Yes, it's a pirate faction tech 1 ship. I fly a racial faction tech 1 frig, which is a comet. They are all tech 1 frigs and supposed to be fairly much even.

In this situation, "rebalancing" has left the seesaw stuck to the damn ground. Again, I ask you to find me anything that is classed as a tech one frigate, (which includes dramiels, daredevils, firetails, hookbills etc.) that can produce anything close to the stats you've seen posted for the worm on this thread.


The ship progression goes like this T1 > Navy > T2 > Pirate. This is why pirate ships have role bonuses and navy ships don't.



This might be the case but its hard to see how any of the other pirate ships (except the new garmur which has its niche) are as strong as t2 frigates.

I really don't mind if the pirate ships are more powerful than t2 and really if all the pirate frigates are as powerful as the worm. They cost more than t2 frigates so that's fine with me. The problem I have is just about any reasonable fit of the worm is more powerful than any of the reasonable fits of 3 other pirate ships. The worm has about about 50% more dps and 50% more tank and can project it through scram and disruptor range, uses capless weapons capless tank and largely ewar immune weapons and has pretty much full damage type selection.


Like I said to make the succubus competitive it would need another high slot with another turret and more cpu and power grid to support it as well as more agility so it can make a decent use of its ab bonus. If the daredevil dram and cruror are supposed to be better than t2 let alone compete with the worm then they all need substantial buffs. Not just tweaks.

I don't mind upping the stakes and making the more expensive ships powerful but they were supposed to balance the pirate ships and I don't think they have ever been this unbalanced.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#97 - 2014-08-12 15:28:33 UTC
I am still curious if any fit from a daredevil, succubus or cruror can beat the fairly straight forward fit I posted.

To the extent ccp wanted to have them be more powerful than t2 frigates I think the daredevil, succubus and cruror need some boosts.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#98 - 2014-08-13 04:05:24 UTC
Renee Chanlin wrote:
Yes, it's a pirate faction tech 1 ship. I fly a racial faction tech 1 frig, which is a comet. They are all tech 1 frigs and supposed to be fairly much even.

Again, I ask you to find me anything that is classed as a tech one frigate, (which includes dramiels, daredevils, firetails, hookbills etc.) that can produce anything close to the stats you've seen posted for the worm on this thread.


It's a PIRATE FACTION Frigate.

They're even listed separately from T1 Frigates on the market.


Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2014-08-20 17:25:32 UTC
Funny how the Gila is banned from pretty much every AT XII match.

So is the Rattlesnake, drone boats to some extents are banned a lot.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-09-07 10:12:30 UTC
do not fix what is not broken!

do not touch pirate ships, they are good now

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again