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Community Concerns Regarding SOMERblink

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K1ng Splurge
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#841 - 2014-08-20 09:19:04 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Those who acted in good faith, with a reasonable assumption of good faith and legitimacy on the part of the other party, should not face the same punishment as the individual who acted in bad faith and tricked others into breaking the rules, no.


And we are assuming CCP will decide on the difference between bad faith and good faith?

Taking into account the start of this entire mess in the first place being CCP giving faction ships? Endorsing it?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#842 - 2014-08-20 09:20:42 UTC
K1ng Splurge wrote:
“It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one.”


Blackstone's Principle. The phrasing I prefer is: "It is better that a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent be punished. For if innocence is no defense, then the common man will cry, 'What value hath virtue?' "

That said, I stand by my statement that you are the only one calling for your head:

K1ing Splurge wrote:
Surely banning somer or the punishment should be equal to those who took part?


The rest of us seem quite content to see the actual malfeasance punished, and let the dupes walk.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#843 - 2014-08-20 09:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
K1ng Splurge wrote:
They will be removing alot of isk from many accounts should their investigation turn out to be a RMT, fair enough?
Also, assuming we done it multiple times, does it count as a first offense or multiple offenses?
So again, multiple PLEX purchases for bonus or "new scheme" would be bannable.


Yes, First, No. Stepped punishments are a training tool, you employ a punishment each time you catch a bad act, you don't just skip steps because they did it a bunch of times in rapid succession (this thing was only live for a couple days).

In other words, you don't shoot the dog just because it peed on three carpets while you were out.

Quote:
Hardly seems fair but valid and i don't disagree with this.


Most ISK buyers are ignorant rather than malicious. ISK sellers, on the other hand, have had ample opportunity to know exactly why their operation is against the rules.


Quote:
Everyone is going by the assumption that somer's mails he advertised on the site aren't legit, should they turn out to be accurate and true and the intent behind the new RMT scheme was legit, who then takes the blame?


Wrong. I'm assuming the mails are a true and complete account of his interaction with CCP, and that the proposal is the same as the one the VP of Sales agreed to.

The evidence that Somer presented in his own defense damns him for several reasons:
1) The proposal doesn't match what Somer actually did, meaning that any authorization from CCP is void.
2) The proposal is intentionally vague and misleading, meaning that any agreement on CCP's part is void.
2) The VP of sales is not the person to go to with this, and Somer knows that. That's called forum shopping.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#844 - 2014-08-20 09:23:27 UTC
Andski wrote:
K1ng Splurge wrote:
But how is that fair towards Somer? I thought CCP was fair and just in their pursuit in RMT?

Surely banning somer or the punishment should be equal to those who took part?

You basically saying, its ok if we all beat someone to death but only he who actually lays the final blow counts for punishment?


"the people who took part in this by taking advantage of the bonus shouldn't be banned because it'd be unfair but here's why they should be banned to make it fair"

"I have an unfortunate habit of attributing fake quotes to people."
Arrendis
TK Corp
#845 - 2014-08-20 09:23:53 UTC
K1ng Splurge wrote:
And we are assuming CCP will decide on the difference between bad faith and good faith?

Taking into account the start of this entire mess in the first place being CCP giving faction ships? Endorsing it?


I would say that as a modern, developed nation with a tradition of Western Jurisprudence and democratic principles that extends back over a thousand years, with employees who hail from multiple nations where Innocent Until Proven Guilty is the order of the day, yes, it is exceedingly premature to presume that CCP will blame the people who were simply used by Somer.
Brahan Seer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#846 - 2014-08-20 09:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Brahan Seer
Arrendis wrote:
K1ng Splurge wrote:
“It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one.”


Blackstone's Principle. The phrasing I prefer is: "It is better that a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent be punished. For if innocence is no defense, then the common man will cry, 'What value hath virtue?' "

That said, I stand by my statement that you are the only one calling for your head:

K1ing Splurge wrote:
Surely banning somer or the punishment should be equal to those who took part?


The rest of us seem quite content to see the actual malfeasance punished, and let the dupes walk.


Shocked I am finding myself in agreemtn with most of what you say.

But at the end of the night none of us know what was truely agreed upon. Somer may or not be innocnet but this worthless speculation by everyone is becoming tireless. My personal belief is that this has always been a labor of love for Somerset and the somerblink staff. I fail to see a reason to undermine and possible destroy it. Maybe this was a reasonable misunderstanding maybe it wasn't but spinning this one way or another doesn't benefit anyone :/
111010110
The Darwin Initiative
#847 - 2014-08-20 09:27:12 UTC
Myriad Blaze wrote:
Andski wrote:
So who acted in bad faith? CCP, by approving an ambiguously worded proposal and then deciding that what was implemented was not what they approved, or Somer, by writing an ambiguously worded proposal, deceiving CCP and essentially implementing a similar referral incentive to what CCP previously made him discontinue?


I read the proposal and despite leaving out a key piece of information it's not ambiguous. Somer did not include the information about setting the price for trading PLEX, but that doesn't make the proposal ambiguous in any way. Actually it's so glaringly obvious that this key piece of information is missing that I am surprised A) that Somer did not include it and B) that the CCP rep didn't ask about it - it should have been the very first question.

From the communication Somer made public it seems that the CCP rep in question did not act very professional. At the very least it indicates that internal communication at CCP is far from where it should be. And that's why CCP deserves a good share of the blame.

All this doesn't mean Somer is innocent, of course. How anyone could believe that this PLEX buy back program were ok - no matter what a single CCP rep said - is completely beyond me. The very idea of this scheme is preposterous. And it's all the more disappointing since there are enough possibilities to use Somer's ISK to set a strong incentive to buy PLEX through the Markee referral link, that shouldn't get you in trouble with anyone (actually one of these ways is quite simple and should be obvious).


The gist of it is that Somer & Markee gamed CCP, preying on known weaknesses (which in many ways are also part of CCP's strengths). The other crux of it is that CCP stumbled over some innate internal organisation / behaviour which developed at CCP after the age that ended roughly around the time of CCP Kieron's goodbye.

For customers it's easy to punch through what Somer and Markee put on the table to CCP. It's easy to say that the VP Sales should have known better, or should have known to never take chances where it comes to customers, but this is the problem of EVE not being a bottle of Wodka. It's not a product or just a service. If you want to sell EVE, you really need to live and breathe it. Hilmar was right about that, but (no pun intended to CCP) but this case is another example of how important it is to do it and not just say that.

There's many angles to this, it's hardly a simple case. It'll take CCP a long time to come to terms with this, because it is not the first time they've gotten suckerpunched by players gaming them, and yet they can never cut off that relation or shun participation by themselves in that dynamic because they're an integral part of the dynamic as a whole. The game, the venture, everything.

So cut them some slack, and let's give it some time.

There's plenty blame to pass around, but what's really important is figuring it all out without CCP further segregating themselves from this immersive, inclusive, emergent venture that is EVE.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#848 - 2014-08-20 09:29:27 UTC
This thread is the sole reason USA needs military vehicles for their police forces. Mob justice is king and no one listens to the 99% who are trying to act in a sensible manner.

Only way to crack down on a mob is to have bigger toys and actively use them.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#849 - 2014-08-20 09:29:32 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:
Somer may or not be innocnet but this worthless speculation by everyone is becoming tireless. My personal belief is that this has always been a labor of love for Somerset and the somerblink staff. I fail to see a reason to undermine and possible destroy it. Maybe this was a reasonable misunderstanding maybe it wasn't but spinning this one way or another doesn't benefit anyone :/


Minor quibble: I believe you mean 'tiresome'.

Substantive reply: As a point, right now we have absolutely no evidence that CCP forced Somer to shut Blink down. He did that. He is the only one who destroyed the part of his operation that wasn't breaking any rules. By his own words this decision was his. That's not speculation. That's what he said, on his site.

To assert anything else is speculation.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#850 - 2014-08-20 09:31:23 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
This thread is the sole reason USA needs military vehicles for their police forces. Mob justice is king and no one listens to the 99% who are trying to act in a sensible manner.

Only way to crack down on a mob is to have bigger toys and actively use them.


Precisely what 'mob justice' are you seeing in the thread? Falcon's team has been investigating. Nothing anyone has said in this thread has changed that fact. Somer shut down his site because he didn't like what he was hearing from CCP. Not from us, from CCP. Where's the mob?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#851 - 2014-08-20 09:32:15 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Mob justice is king



Bunch of people: "Hey, CCP, you should look into this, it might be RMT"

CCP: "Ok, we'll have a look"

Somer: "I quit all of a sudden"

What part of that is "mob justice" to you?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
flakeys
Doomheim
#852 - 2014-08-20 09:32:17 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:
My personal belief is that this has always been a labor of love for Somerset and the somerblink staff/




It's a gambling site , it's designed to empty your pockets and rank isk for their own benefit.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Brahan Seer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#853 - 2014-08-20 09:33:08 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Brahan Seer wrote:
Somer may or not be innocnet but this worthless speculation by everyone is becoming tireless. My personal belief is that this has always been a labor of love for Somerset and the somerblink staff. I fail to see a reason to undermine and possible destroy it. Maybe this was a reasonable misunderstanding maybe it wasn't but spinning this one way or another doesn't benefit anyone :/


Minor quibble: I believe you mean 'tiresome'.

Substantive reply: As a point, right now we have absolutely no evidence that CCP forced Somer to shut Blink down. He did that. He is the only one who destroyed the part of his operation that wasn't breaking any rules. By his own words this decision was his. That's not speculation. That's what he said, on his site.

To assert anything else is speculation.


Yeah typoes getting a bit rough at this hour and it's "she" but you are correct, she or one of the staffers put up the message stating they took it down and CCP didn't request or force the closure. Not sure if it's just the stress or a show of good will that they want to make this right. just not sure, all I know is its a bummer espeically during a celebration :(
KaRa DaVuT
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#854 - 2014-08-20 09:33:14 UTC
"When elephants start to fight, the grass will always smashed the ground"

Somer vs CCP.. The grass is the innocents K1ng Splurge talks about.

This is just the case.

I wont believe that CCP is %100 innocent, also Somer did things against some rules. It is obvious. They should not drop the ball because Somer closes its doors.

The party who punish the guilty is the one also a part of the problem. THat makes me thinkg that If they will be fair or not... I except them to be righteous, and treat Somer like every other RMT'er. That at least, maybe calm the community and they could gain a wee bit trust that they lost during the process.

Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and on your mind... And what you decide to do every day, makes you - not your race - a good man - or not.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#855 - 2014-08-20 09:34:54 UTC
111010110 wrote:
The gist of it is that Somer & Markee gamed CCP, preying on known weaknesses (which in many ways are also part of CCP's strengths). The other crux of it is that CCP stumbled over some innate internal organisation / behaviour which developed at CCP after the age that ended roughly around the time of CCP Kieron's goodbye.


I honestly don't think Markee was involved in this beyond his partnership with Somer.

It seems that MD wanted Somer to provide written permission from CCP to carry on with this program, as I strongly doubt he'd risk his reseller status to keep on a single lucrative affiliate. CCP gave the go-ahead, MD then gave the go-ahead, and Somer implemented the thing.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
KaRa DaVuT
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#856 - 2014-08-20 09:35:10 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
This thread is the sole reason USA needs military vehicles for their police forces. Mob justice is king and no one listens to the 99% who are trying to act in a sensible manner.

Only way to crack down on a mob is to have bigger toys and actively use them.


This is not mob justice.

This is a COMMUNITY that tries to solve the problem with free thinking. If you cant deal with other people's opinions then I suggest you to read somewhere else.

Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and on your mind... And what you decide to do every day, makes you - not your race - a good man - or not.
Brahan Seer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#857 - 2014-08-20 09:35:38 UTC
KaRa DaVuT wrote:
"When elephants start to fight, the grass will always smashed the ground"

Somer vs CCP.. The grass is the innocents K1ng Splurge talks about.

This is just the case.

I wont believe that CCP is %100 innocent, also Somer did things against some rules. It is obvious. They should not drop the ball because Somer closes its doors.

The party who punish the guilty is the one also a part of the problem. THat makes me thinkg that If they will be fair or not... I except them to be righteous, and treat Somer like every other RMT'er. That at least, maybe calm the community and they could gain a wee bit trust that they lost during the process.



Your operating on the assumption that Somer is guilty.
K1ng Splurge
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#858 - 2014-08-20 09:35:47 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
This thread is the sole reason USA needs military vehicles for their police forces. Mob justice is king and no one listens to the 99% who are trying to act in a sensible manner.

Only way to crack down on a mob is to have bigger toys and actively use them.


Precisely what 'mob justice' are you seeing in the thread? Falcon's team has been investigating. Nothing anyone has said in this thread has changed that fact. Somer shut down his site because he didn't like what he was hearing from CCP. Not from us, from CCP. Where's the mob?


He may be referring to us as "mob" with our discussion on this thread.


Arrendis wrote:
Minor quibble: I believe you mean 'tiresome'.

Substantive reply: As a point, right now we have absolutely no evidence that CCP forced Somer to shut Blink down. He did that. He is the only one who destroyed the part of his operation that wasn't breaking any rules. By his own words this decision was his. That's not speculation. That's what he said, on his site.

To assert anything else is speculation.


Well said Arrendis

Again, everyone waits for an "official post" or announcement but while we do, some community members, such as myself, enjoy a debate that won't end up with ISD blocking all our posts.

“Time spent arguing is, oddly enough, almost never wasted.”
Irya Boone
The Scope
#859 - 2014-08-20 09:37:26 UTC
KaRa DaVuT wrote:


This is not mob justice.

This is a COMMUNITY that tries to solve the problem with Our Master tell us to make noise about it.



i've fixed it for you

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#860 - 2014-08-20 09:38:00 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:
But at the end of the night none of us know what was truely agreed upon.

That's right. However, the mail chain that Somer published in his defense (and in violation of the ToS, I might add) doesn't actually defend him - in fact, it shows that what he got approved by CCP doesn't match what he actually implemented later. (Also since this isn't a criminal trial, we don't need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, and the evidence we do have suggests that the fault lies with Somer.)

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.