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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Low Sec FW Meetings

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Author
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#21 - 2014-08-19 08:41:12 UTC
I am a resident of non-FW lowsec. There's a lot of us. I find it disheartening that with all the talk about improving lowsec going around, it all seems to be centered around FW. There are A LOT of issues with lowsec that we all suffre under, as well as some problems that only affect FW, and some that only affect the rest of us.

I'd be very happy to see more recognition of "the rest of us."

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#22 - 2014-08-19 09:42:16 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
I'd be very happy to see more recognition of "the rest of us."


The better FW is, the more targets for us. That's good in my book.

So I have no problem with a focus on FW mechanics (and even though I'm a neutral, I also have ideas about those as I do understand them), but I also agree, there are other lowsec aspects that I also have ideas about that are not directly related to FW mechanics.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#23 - 2014-08-19 15:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:


...You're more than welcome to post anything that concerns you about lowsec here as well if this is your preference. I'm certainly reading this thread.....


Thanks again for reaching out to the community and being accommodating to boot.


1) Plex Timer rollbacks

Emphasize that this is the change that faction war players want more than any other.

CCP Fozzie said on October 22nd 2012:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
The Rest of the Plan
There are some other changes to the rest of our original roadmap that we are making after consultation with the community:

...

We will be attempting to release two new features to the FW complexes that have been suggested many times by the FW community to increase PVP opportunities in complexes:

Have plex capture timers count backwards to the default state when no players are contesting them

.
(emphasis added)

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73491

As you can see from Bienator II's post here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4572539#post4572539

This idea is still very strongly supported and I would say even the most strongly supported idea concerning faction war. Buried on page six it still gets more space likes than ccp's original post.

Fozzie did respond and said:

CCP Fozzie wrote:


Our position on timer rollbacks has not changed. We'd like to do them at some point, but they will not be coming in Kronos.


As a csm I would continue to emphasize that you want the "some point" to be sooner rather than later. I would love to hear what exactly the hold up is.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#24 - 2014-08-19 16:02:58 UTC
it's important that the plex timers tick down faster than they tick up
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#25 - 2014-08-19 16:33:24 UTC
I agree that timer rollbacks need to be added.

However,

I think that they will be considered a "catalyst for warzone stagnation" and so they probably want to implement something that enhances warzone movement before or at the same time.


Right now


I think the penalties / bonus's given for Tiers 1, 3, 4 and 5 are too wide.

There should be the means to "contract to Militia". (massive aid for supply/resupply to open Militia fleets, fitted ships in particular)

The most desirable LP store items are not spread equally over the 4 factions.

The spawn rates on NPC's in plex's should be capped (to 5 max) with a longer window for respawn rate.

NPC spawns in FW plex's should aggress all parties other than the defending faction.

The suspect flag for aggression within a FW plex should be removed, for all parties. Warzone, neutral zone, "no mans land". Describe it how you want. It is a poor mechanic for defending your already War Dec'd role and is a PvP suppressant.


Then when there is time...

Ranks should be reworked so they can be achieved by either LP accumulated or FW kill scores.

Rewards PvP kills in a different way to LP for all participants on the km - could be tied in with both the Rank system, the LP store, the system level bonus system and more.

LP store should be cleaned up and rebalanced so that modules are a more common and worthwhile choice.

Faction Tech II ammo in LP stores (charges were done, now do other consumables). Give the crystals high burn out rates and make the Faction Tech II ammo for other types larger (less per reload).

Set the system level upgrades as destroyable modules built onto the ihub (same as null-sec station services). Levels are then downgraded by combat at the I-hub or by system flip only.

Introduce a rare faction ship reward, obtainable from the LP store only with the medal for full Warzone control and whilst holding the highest rank.

Introduce a new highest level rank that is obtainable only by FW kills not LP accumulation. Elite rank should be an extremely accomplished combat position.


Mmm... so a few to start with.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-08-19 17:03:19 UTC
My quick 2 cents:

1) Add direct gates between the 2 warzones, this will generate content in the form if multi warzone roams/sieges - this could also in effect create low sec trade hubs if the gated systems have stations.

2) Give more meaningful system bonuses for high tier occupancy - e.g. A tier 5 system may act as a cyno jammer - would place a lot of emphasis on where you choose to live in the warzones.

3) Give meaningful bonuses to FW rank - such as tax breaks when selling in your factions stations, having low sec status ignored in your factions high sec, providing bonuses when flying your factions hulls etc etc
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#27 - 2014-08-19 17:16:16 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I agree that timer rollbacks need to be added.

However,

I think that they will be considered a "catalyst for warzone stagnation" and so they probably want to implement something that enhances warzone movement before or at the same time.


Right now


I think the penalties / bonus's given for Tiers 1, 3, 4 and 5 are too wide.

There should be the means to "contract to Militia". (massive aid for supply/resupply to open Militia fleets, fitted ships in particular)

The most desirable LP store items are not spread equally over the 4 factions.

The spawn rates on NPC's in plex's should be capped (to 5 max) with a longer window for respawn rate.

NPC spawns in FW plex's should aggress all parties other than the defending faction.

The suspect flag for aggression within a FW plex should be removed, for all parties. Warzone, neutral zone, "no mans land". Describe it how you want. It is a poor mechanic for defending your already War Dec'd role and is a PvP suppressant.




If you think not having lots of plexes run in stabbed alts is stagnation then yes timer rollbacks will bring stagnation. But in terms of people really caring about tiers and warzone control as a whole (other than the occasional home system attack for lulz) it's already stagnant. Taht ship sailed on October 22 2012.

If you are afraid there will be little plexing due to plex timer rollbacks then ccp should just dramatically slash the lp pay from level 4 fw missions. Problem solved. LP will increase in value and go to people who are willing to risk it in pvp related plexing.

As for the rest in the above quote it is pretty much the sort of changes that really wont effect anything. I'm not saying they are bad ideas. The last idea is really pretty good but its not going to change much. FW whill still be factionwhorefare.

Yes I think there are other things that should happen as well. (see my signature) But they are not as well supported as plex timer rollbacks. For too long CCP has been tweaking small irrelevant things that players really don't care much about.

I think we would give ccp as clear a message as possible to get the plex timer rollbacks implemented. (I would like it if they slashed level 4 mission pay as well but the rollbacks are more important imo) At that point we can see what else needs to be done.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#28 - 2014-08-19 20:25:20 UTC
Little things I would like to see are along the lines of neutrals who enter FW plex get flagged as suspect. I also think shooting friendly militia should flag you as suspect, and the magic MWD on plex rats that can make them go faster than anything on grid is annoying.

As far as farmers go, they will always be there. It doesn't matter if it is an unfit unskilled alt or a geared up pirate frigate. If they don't want to fight you they won't. You can't force them to stay and try to hold the plex if they don't want to. Accepting that is a key thing in FW and I think will save you from going (too) crazy.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#29 - 2014-08-19 22:04:32 UTC
Farmers under control with latest changes to plex rats. Timer rollbacks not needed at this point in time.

Otherwise, FW has generated more content for more entities than any other part of the game this summer.

If anything, CCP should investigate ways to make NPC 0.0 and/or non-FW low sec systems more attractive.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#30 - 2014-08-19 22:25:04 UTC
Moglarr wrote:

As far as farmers go, they will always be there. ...



Its not so much "farmers" as people who "rabbit plex." That is they sit in a plex and as soon as another player comes in they run a system or 2 over and plex. Sometimes they do this for lp/isk other times just for occupancy. It was a problem before we had lp and giving lp for plexing did not help the situation.

Will rabbit plexers always be there? Well unless ccp does something like timer rollbacks they will sure.

X Gallentius wrote:
Farmers under control with latest changes to plex rats. Timer rollbacks not needed at this point in time.


If you are fine with the war being won by alts in empty frigates d-plexing systems and running from every fight, then nothing needs to be done. That's true.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#31 - 2014-08-19 23:10:07 UTC
Cearain wrote:
If you are fine with the war being won by alts in empty frigates d-plexing systems and running from every fight, then nothing needs to be done. That's true.

This is patently false. The alts in empty frigs are left unattended so their main can pay attention to other things, and they purposefully get podded to sell the kill rights (nuetrals) as well as for quicker reshipping times.

Defensive plexing alts have not kept us from taking any system we want to take, btw.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#32 - 2014-08-19 23:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
If you are fine with the war being won by alts in empty frigates d-plexing systems and running from every fight, then nothing needs to be done. That's true.

This is patently false. The alts in empty frigs are left unattended so their main can pay attention to other things, and they purposefully get podded to sell the kill rights (nuetrals) as well as for quicker reshipping times.

Defensive plexing alts have not kept us from taking any system we want to take, btw.


The way i see it, d-plexing alts are the emergent alternative to the timer roll backs we wanted. One thing is for sure cearain, d-plexing alts are no opposition to, well, anyone. Once a system is taken by an offensive campaign, then its your defensive advantage.

The current Gallente push was triggered by a Caldari push for Rakapas. Caldaris attack of Rakapas was not done by alts, nor was our defense, nor was our counter attack on the Kurala constellation, nor was Caldaris defense of it.

You keep repeating the 2 year out of date impressions you have of faction war, even in min/amarr wz im pretty confident that most system captures are being driven by actual pvp'ers. You just live in a parallel dimension where facts are invisible.
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#33 - 2014-08-19 23:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Moglarr
I agree that dplexing alts don't win the WZ, although it is unfortunate when they are active and see us coming for them ;). As for bailing from a plex, if you don't want me to have that plex then close it. If you only wanted the kill then move on because I won't be giving it to you. In fact, I don't think a timer roll back is required because there are already ways for players to prevent farmers from farming the plexes the want. It is called plexing.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#34 - 2014-08-20 01:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
If you are fine with the war being won by alts in empty frigates d-plexing systems and running from every fight, then nothing needs to be done. That's true.

This is patently false. The alts in empty frigs are left unattended so their main can pay attention to other things, and they purposefully get podded to sell the kill rights (nuetrals) as well as for quicker reshipping times.

Defensive plexing alts have not kept us from taking any system we want to take, btw.


The way i see it, d-plexing alts are the emergent alternative to the timer roll backs we wanted. One thing is for sure cearain, d-plexing alts are no opposition to, well, anyone..


Instead of timer rollbacks to prevent alt rabbit plexers we just get alt rabbit plexers of our own. I agree that is the emergent game play because that is what the mechanics encourage.

Rabbit plexing alts were never opposition to anyone but they have always decided occupancy. CCP has never taken the steps to make faction war occupancy be mostly decided by pvp.


Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Once a system is taken by an offensive campaign, then its your defensive advantage.

The current Gallente push was triggered by a Caldari push for Rakapas. Caldaris attack of Rakapas was not done by alts, nor was our defense, nor was our counter attack on the Kurala constellation, nor was Caldaris defense of it.

You keep repeating the 2 year out of date impressions you have of faction war, even in min/amarr wz im pretty confident that most system captures are being driven by actual pvp'ers. You just live in a parallel dimension where facts are invisible.


I agree that people will fight for a single system every now and then. Whoever can outblob over the 24 hour period will win it if they want - just like in null sec. But IMO faction war can be a great war that involves fighting throughout the warzone. And it could involve strategy with the placement of pilots beyond just "everyone get to huola!" Or "everyone get to Rakapas!" A war with some strategy other then everyone getting into a blob in the same system would be very refreshing and I think doable.

Rollbacks would bring us much closer to that goal. It might not solve everything but it would be huge step in the right direction. Other measures can be taken if it doesn't do the trick.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#35 - 2014-08-20 01:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:

Rabbit plexing alts were never opposition to anyone but they have always decided occupancy. CCP has never taken the steps to make faction war occupancy be mostly decided by pvp.


Just because your push for Huola wasnt successful i know you would like to blame farmer alts, but in reality it was a pvp fail on your sides behalf.

The only things deciding occupancy in our warzone are hundreds of dead ships. Only difference is we wont blame farmer alts if we fail.

Cearain wrote:
~~But IMO~~


Any post that includes this from you is bound to be worthless.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#36 - 2014-08-20 02:04:43 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Rabbit plexing alts were never opposition to anyone but they have always decided occupancy. CCP has never taken the steps to make faction war occupancy be mostly decided by pvp.


Just because your push for Huola wasnt successful i know you would like to blame farmer alts, but in reality it was a pvp fail on your sides behalf..


I never blamed alts for our failure to take huola. We could not get enough pvp pilots into huola for a long enough period of time. This null sec junior pvp does exist in fw no doubt. But it really doesn't effect the occupancy warzone as a whole.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:

The only things deciding occupancy in our warzone are hundreds of dead ships. Only difference is we wont blame farmer alts if we fail.




Rabbit plexers gain way more vp than pvp mains in faction war. This was true when Caldari won, it was true when gallente won and its true now.


There are 20,000 active characters in faction war. When we attacked huola we were lucky if we had 200 people fighting at one time. There are allot of alts in faction war. I would really like faction war to be something worth putting a main in. I would like to have fights in plexes and not just alts in plexes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Subsparx
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#37 - 2014-08-20 02:27:17 UTC
I'm fully down for this. I welcome you to ping me any time in game and pop on the public CalMil comms and I can chat with you and find others interested in doing so from Caldari. As for a pow wow involving everyone at once, as much as I'd love to have that I feel like it would degrade to name calling at some point. I just don't see certain people on opposing sides getting along for very long on TeamSpeak.

CEO of Crimson Serpent Syndicate - www.crimsonserpent.com

Chairman of Heiian Conglomerate - www.heiian.com

Owner of FWC - www.factionwarfare.com

Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#38 - 2014-08-20 04:10:26 UTC
Subsparx wrote:
I'm fully down for this. I welcome you to ping me any time in game and pop on the public CalMil comms and I can chat with you and find others interested in doing so from Caldari. As for a pow wow involving everyone at once, as much as I'd love to have that I feel like it would degrade to name calling at some point. I just don't see certain people on opposing sides getting along for very long on TeamSpeak.


I feel that Name calling should be aloud such as I'll call you Subsparx and you can call me Phox and we can call XG space Jesus. :)

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#39 - 2014-08-20 04:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Rabbit plexing alts were never opposition to anyone but they have always decided occupancy. CCP has never taken the steps to make faction war occupancy be mostly decided by pvp.


Just because your push for Huola wasnt successful i know you would like to blame farmer alts, but in reality it was a pvp fail on your sides behalf..


I never blamed alts for our failure to take huola. We could not get enough pvp pilots into huola for a long enough period of time. This null sec junior pvp does exist in fw no doubt. But it really doesn't effect the occupancy warzone as a whole.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:

The only things deciding occupancy in our warzone are hundreds of dead ships. Only difference is we wont blame farmer alts if we fail.




Rabbit plexers gain way more vp than pvp mains in faction war. This was true when Caldari won, it was true when gallente won and its true now.


There are 20,000 active characters in faction war. When we attacked huola we were lucky if we had 200 people fighting at one time. There are allot of alts in faction war. I would really like faction war to be something worth putting a main in. I would like to have fights in plexes and not just alts in plexes.




If i were like you and spoke to practically no one else in my warzone, i too might be under the impression that things happened randomly under the actions of some AFK players.

Thankfully, most people, in most warzones, have more insight into the activities of their respective militias.
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#40 - 2014-08-20 05:14:33 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
You have pirates and neutrals - anyone from the new player friendly guys in The Scope to the 'Hey look someone's flying a Stabber lets hot drop it with carriers' Shadow Cartel, PL etc.

First, I would like to see killmails to this accusation please.
Secondl If you take the time to go here. Considering what you just said, there is no difference between you, SC, PL, BL or any other entity with bigger or stronger ships. Just as PL drops their supercapitals on everything undocked, from a carier to a velotr. Shadow Cartel organizing and forming roams, 2-3 man fleets to go look for site runners or something to shoot at or even gatecamps. You take 6 people to kill a completely defenseless mining ship that couldnt attack back. Throwing around some silly slander like that doesn't help anyone and everyone, EVERYONE is in the same boat when it comes to PVP.



The main issue I see with faction warfare is it is being farmed by carebears who run full a rack of stabs and warp out if anyone comes into the site. Maybe make a 15k warp disruption field around the actual capture point, As it gets closer to being capture expand out the field. Making people have to be relatively commited to it. The current system the way it is and warp core stabs are part of the reson why alot people "blob" single ships in sites.

I mean why waste time trying to look for stuff solo if all that is going to happen is they are going to warp out anyways? Why not just get 3 or 4 friends together and go look for stuff and all point it before it gets out?