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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1401 - 2014-08-19 12:16:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


So why does nobody use those "many counters"?

Lock breaker bombs are never used, they are simply a waste of time and ships.

ECM ships are no longer used because logi simply fit ECCM and the ECM ships are easily removed from fights. They were retired from every powerblocks fleet comps several years ago.

Damping ships are used but require an entire fleet to be dedicated to it so it simply is not a viable option for smaller alliances as it lacks the firepower and is rather soft and squishy. CFC use it as a secondary fleet.

Anyone in the GIA can tell you that spies in enemy fleets are of limited use and do little good in a fight. Burning a spy in every fleet fight simply isn't viable and a waste of assets.

We already do this, it wont help a smaller fleet.


ok go play planetside then, spawn kill till killed re-spawn.

you have five ways to get into the logistics and still you want to nerf them because of the effort and the manpower that is needed.

yes, I believe you are right! it is op!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1402 - 2014-08-19 12:20:00 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


So why does nobody use those "many counters"?

Lock breaker bombs are never used, they are simply a waste of time and ships.

ECM ships are no longer used because logi simply fit ECCM and the ECM ships are easily removed from fights. They were retired from every powerblocks fleet comps several years ago.

Damping ships are used but require an entire fleet to be dedicated to it so it simply is not a viable option for smaller alliances as it lacks the firepower and is rather soft and squishy. CFC use it as a secondary fleet.

Anyone in the GIA can tell you that spies in enemy fleets are of limited use and do little good in a fight. Burning a spy in every fleet fight simply isn't viable and a waste of assets.

We already do this, it wont help a smaller fleet.


ok go play planetside then, spawn kill till killed re-spawn.

you have five ways to get into the logistics and still you want to nerf them because of the effort and the manpower that is needed.

yes, I believe you are right! it is op!


I literally just told you why these five things are not counters to logi.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1403 - 2014-08-19 12:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: cpt Niki
Yes you told me but what is the counter to 4 mega fleets?

5 mega fleets?
6 mega fleets?

an AOE old titan DD?

in large scale fights there is nothing anyone that can do it is just N+1, that **** must be stopped.

My opinion for the big coalitions and those big fights is the management.
Today it is easy to manage a coalition with out of game tools, with all those standings and all that naps and faps.

an alliance should not have more than 5 standings (10max) tokens after those tokens you have to buy standings for max time a day and both parties pay the same amount of isk.

Also make the management not possible out of game. if someone has to be 24/7 logged on to manage an alliance he will burn the first week and there you go no more big alliances no more standings more fights more small entities.

This is my opinion to the problem of stagnation, it is not the tracking titans it is not the wrecking ball it is not those 2k megas in my overview nor the 1k maels.

Why not making the game more easy and lets ask for fleets with no limit in wings and squads! that way we will be happy till the end of the servers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1404 - 2014-08-19 12:40:47 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
Yes you told me but what is the counter to 4 mega fleets?

5 mega fleets?
6 mega fleets?

an AOE old titan DD?

in large scale fights there is nothing anyone that can do it is just N+1, that **** must be stopped.

My opinion for the big coalitions and those big fights is the management.
Today it is easy to manage a coalition with out of game tools, with all those standings and all that naps and faps.

an alliance should not have more than 5 standings (10max) tokens after those tokens you have to buy standings for max time a day and both parties pay the same amount of isk.

Also make the management not possible out of game. if someone has to be 24/7 logged on to manage an alliance he will burn the first week and there you go no more big alliances no more standings more fights more small entities.

This is my opinion to the problem of stagnation, it is not the tracking titans it is not the wrecking ball it is not those 2k megas in my overview nor the 1k males.

Why not making the game more easy and lets ask for fleets with no limit in wings and squads! that way we will be happy till the end of the servers.


That is a pants oh head argument. CCP cant nerf the likes of jabber, mumble, TS, private forums and tools such as garpa. You would shitcan many other tools people use and not make a dent in our organisation.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1405 - 2014-08-19 12:52:15 UTC
"You would shitcan many other tools people use and not make a dent in our organization. "

Do you recruit pilots without their full API?

if the answer is yes then you will have no problem at all

if the answer is hell no wtf are you talking about then you have a problem and there is the root of all.
You have everything you need in a monitor without logging. you get everything even from spies without been present.
Garpa? make systems move some light years and don't give it out of game, anyone who want to jump travel have to open the in-game map and check what systems are in his jump range the moment he opened the map.

giving a bonus to a ship or nerfing a shipclass is not going to resolve the problem of null space.

prohibit the use of in game data from third party tools and you have a nice game! with many pilots logged on.

as I said this is my opinion, and that's how I see things, I don't see the N+1 formula ever getting old till CCP comes over and **** in our sandbox.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1406 - 2014-08-19 12:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
cpt Niki wrote:


giving a bonus to a ship or nerfing a shipclass is not going to resolve the problem of null space.



So you nerf API.

How will this help you when a small alliance cant kill our baltec fleets let alone when they come up against a wreckingball? The end result is exactly the same as we have now, small alliances are not viable in sov space.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1407 - 2014-08-19 13:17:31 UTC
As I see it, every coalition will collapse, large alliance will have to get more social and have more players in key positions to do the day to day work, spies can infiltrate and collapse those alliances from inside without a battle, you have to speak to your members to your directors to get the feeling that you can give them access by their tone of their voice, by knowing him and remember something that he did, not to run back and see what mails he sent, what wallet transactions he has put some filters in a program and get a red flag about a toon a corp in your alliance just recruited.

You have to play and put your hopes to many people that can be mad about anything and do anything, from kicking you out of the corp to disband an alliance.

you will not be that open and you have to proceed with caution.
more power to the real people is something that makes conflicts when something is automated then there will be nothing, machines are machines and people are people.

as I said this is how I see it because the effort will be too much to run a corp of 11k characters, go to your corp tab and see how many of those 11k pilots have rights.

can you make an audit by yourself ?
no you can't run a corp that big by yourself but with the help of some tools you can run it, again not alone but with very little people having access to critical roles.

This is my option because I see one leader in every big alliance with some directors and after that the auditing is based on programs the only thing you need is more peasants to press F1.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1408 - 2014-08-19 15:29:07 UTC
Quote:


This is my option because I see one leader in every big alliance with some directors and after that the auditing is based on programs the only thing you need is more peasants to press F1.


This is where you show your lack of experience with running something like the CFC.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1409 - 2014-08-19 16:00:52 UTC
Please tell me if you had as an alliance 10 standing tokens and no external tools for anything how the CFC would be?

Can you imagine? I lack in the experience of something that big, but I see that it would fall apart as any other bloc.
That is how I image a game. Log on play the game.

Atm you only need to open your PC join TS mumble and play some other games till the ping pop up in your screen.

I imagine people to log on and co-operate in getting the day to day work done.

I Imagine smaller entities, but that's how far my imagination goes.

I'm a casual player and I have in my computer 2-3 out of game tools and believe me those tools help me a lot, I believe in an alliance level some tools are saviors are the angel from heaven.

as you point I lack the experience in running something that big, but tell me, one day you don't have all those tools what would you do?

how do you imagine the game we play?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1410 - 2014-08-19 16:28:41 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
Please tell me if you had as an alliance 10 standing tokens and no external tools for anything how the CFC would be?

Can you imagine? I lack in the experience of something that big, but I see that it would fall apart as any other bloc.
That is how I image a game. Log on play the game.

Atm you only need to open your PC join TS mumble and play some other games till the ping pop up in your screen.

I imagine people to log on and co-operate in getting the day to day work done.

I Imagine smaller entities, but that's how far my imagination goes.

I'm a casual player and I have in my computer 2-3 out of game tools and believe me those tools help me a lot, I believe in an alliance level some tools are saviors are the angel from heaven.

as you point I lack the experience in running something that big, but tell me, one day you don't have all those tools what would you do?

how do you imagine the game we play?


How does CCP nerf jabber?
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1411 - 2014-08-19 18:22:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:
Please tell me if you had as an alliance 10 standing tokens and no external tools for anything how the CFC would be?

Can you imagine? I lack in the experience of something that big, but I see that it would fall apart as any other bloc.
That is how I image a game. Log on play the game.

Atm you only need to open your PC join TS mumble and play some other games till the ping pop up in your screen.

I imagine people to log on and co-operate in getting the day to day work done.

I Imagine smaller entities, but that's how far my imagination goes.

I'm a casual player and I have in my computer 2-3 out of game tools and believe me those tools help me a lot, I believe in an alliance level some tools are saviors are the angel from heaven.

as you point I lack the experience in running something that big, but tell me, one day you don't have all those tools what would you do?

how do you imagine the game we play?


How does CCP nerf jabber?



He's not talking about jabber, he's talking about all of the API dependent checks and services that make it possible for a relatively small number of people able to manage a huge number of people, structures, timers and the like. I say answer his question: what would CFC do if the API servers went down and everything that these API servers provided was no longer available out of game?

I'm guessing either you'd build more out of game tools that players have to put information into, or that more management activities would occur in game. Either way, that puts players back in the game, and if someone in the information chain drops the ball, content is created.

I'll fess up and say I have no experience with alliance level leadership (and I don't want it) but I truly do want to know, honestly, what would happen without the API?

Cedric
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1412 - 2014-08-19 18:26:25 UTC
CpT niki is most probablly on drugs .

What null is now is what the players made it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1413 - 2014-08-19 19:36:18 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:



He's not talking about jabber, he's talking about all of the API dependent checks and services that make it possible for a relatively small number of people able to manage a huge number of people, structures, timers and the like. I say answer his question: what would CFC do if the API servers went down and everything that these API servers provided was no longer available out of game?

I'm guessing either you'd build more out of game tools that players have to put information into, or that more management activities would occur in game. Either way, that puts players back in the game, and if someone in the information chain drops the ball, content is created.

I'll fess up and say I have no experience with alliance level leadership (and I don't want it) but I truly do want to know, honestly, what would happen without the API?


We would continue as normal just as we did when the API did go down.

Killing API will not do anything to stop empire sprawl, it will not help small fleets take on bigger fleets that they cannot harm and it will not break up our coalitions.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1414 - 2014-08-20 08:53:12 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
CpT niki is most probablly on drugs .

What null is now is what the players made it.



Most of the time!

API is one point, generally I'm talking about all those things that makes an alliance of 2k pilots easy to be managed.

I believe that all those third party tools made the management of the game easy.
You play a game an someone say that you need to have a good IT infrastructure to be ok in null sec! WTH? you play a game!

From my point of view,

Day 1
Start the game.
join help channel
Download EvEMON to see your skills and plan your ****. (first program)
Download EFT to see your ship (2nd program)
Download an industry tool to see your margins (3rd program)
Need a price check go to eve-central (4th program /page)
Join a corp, first of all give your Full API key, background check (5th program)
Join corp forums (API Check)
Join alliance forums (API check)
Corp killboard (API check)
Alliance Killboard (API check)
Join coalition programs (API Check)
SRP (out of game page / program)
Participation (out of game page / program)
Notifications (API check)
Mails (API checks)
TS (authenticated from forum groups ? (API check))
Jabber (authenticated from forum groups ?(API check))
Scouting copy paste directional (out of game page)
sov holding check (API check)

and I believe there are more things that I don't know that you can do with all those checks and out of game tools you said Garpa, dotlan, killboards, evewho, all those sites that gives info about everything that happens in game and you don't have to log to get them.

my opinion is that it is impossible to run an organization that large with so little ppl in charge.
having a corporation of 2k pilots and have lets say 20? 40? 100? ppl with rights to do things for the rest of the corp should not be possible.

I don't know if this will solve the sov null problem but if you don't have problem with that (closing all third party apps) you can go on and tell in your posts nerf RR and close all third party.

yes, I'm still on drugs :)
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1415 - 2014-08-20 08:57:47 UTC
Whoever sees EVE as a game is a fool. When you consider the amount of time and effort that you need to put into the game, EVE is a hobby and not just a mere game. Thus, it is necessary to go to great lengths to protect what you create in your hobby; especially when the rest of the other people in this hobby have nothing better to do than to make your time miserable. Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1416 - 2014-08-20 09:00:34 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Sov! Huh! What is it good for?



This is a good question. what is the point of holding sov? I am dimly aware that sov is required to build supercaps, and also that lots of supercaps are required to have any realistic chance of holding sov. If this is the case then it's clearly broken.

Isn't it enough for a corp or alliance to simply control a region by simply using that space and patrolling it and killing deterring others? This is how it happens in NPC nullsec.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#1417 - 2014-08-20 09:06:03 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Sov! Huh! What is it good for?



This is a good question. what is the point of holding sov? I am dimly aware that sov is required to build supercaps, and also that lots of supercaps are required to have any realistic chance of holding sov. If this is the case then it's clearly broken.

Isn't it enough for a corp or alliance to simply control a region by simply using that space and patrolling it and killing deterring others? This is how it happens in NPC nullsec.


Owning sov gives you reduction in POS fuel requirements, the ability to install jump bridges and system upgrades. It's not necessary but it does greatly improve a system's utility.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1418 - 2014-08-20 09:43:54 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:

I don't know if this will solve the sov null problem but if you don't have problem with that (closing all third party apps) you can go on and tell in your posts nerf RR and close all third party.

yes, I'm still on drugs :)


Not a single one of those has anything to do with a smaller fleet being unable to damage larger ones. Also, as I said, you can remove all API and we will still operate as we do now. Our alliances pre date API, we dont need it to continue.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1419 - 2014-08-20 10:02:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:

think of new ideas not just some nerfs! if you nerf the RR with stacking penalties I believe we will see fleets of logistics just because we can bring them!

@baltec1 you need people that are not

-FC kill the broadcasted target
-Yes my lord, as you wish.
can you make a fleet with 100 ships of electronic warfare and those 100 have a brain and use it?
It is difficult but I believe it is possible.


It wouldn't matter how many small fleets of logi you would make, they would still have diminishing returns on RR because they are all repping the one ship. If you want to break the N+1 meta for fleet combat then you must deal with the need to bring more logi to counter more alpha to counter more logi.

Until you deal with RR smaller alliances will simply not be viable in sov space.



The best way to nerf RR effectively achieving a "stack nerf" without implementign a real stack nerf (complicated because stack nerf can affect modifiers of STATS in ships, as was explained to use long ago when we asked if some sort of stack nerf on incommign DPS could be possible) would be to massively reduce their range. Second reduce Bombs damage( and ehp) by half and reduce their explosion resolution to 1/6th of current

IF logis need to MOVE and get within 10 km of target to repair it. A few things happen.

The logi piltos would need far more skill so the number of useful logi pilots would reduce massively.
There would be ways to go aroudn the logis by targetign ships at other extreme of the blob
If the logis all pack tightly around a single poitn, bombers wouuld wipe them.


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1420 - 2014-08-20 10:12:28 UTC
Yes I know that there were alliances pre API, but back then goonswarm (OHGOD) had 6k pilots now have 12k pilots to achieve this I believe that all those third party apps has to do something.

I believe that having to maintain something with the help of real people is more vulnerable that have it done by a machine.

if you have some numbers I would like to tell me how many director right pilots had OHGOD, and how many are there today.
the alliance had increased by 100% on pilots that means you should have more than 100% on your directors, auditing team to keep up the organization active.

can you bring some numbers?

by saying close all third party tools/websites I want to have smaller organizations, if you have then small standing list means you put a problem on the overview the moment the battle begin or pay a good amount and get your standings for the battle.

my opinion is to make all those organizations smaller and find a method that they can not make coalitions.