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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#1581 - 2014-08-18 01:40:47 UTC
Also, Munnin is trash, maybe not so much if autocannon based ;/
Extra 10m/s is irrelevant.

Finally, sentry Ishtar not a problem.
Long range: Virtually no tank. Spends most of his time trying to alpha frigs and dessies. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant at 75-80 km.
Close range: Reduced dps more on tank/reps, Theres no right answer. Could be using nuets and webs plus blasters. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant in brawl range (scram, web), which you most often be in.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1582 - 2014-08-18 09:55:59 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Also, Munnin is trash, maybe not so much if autocannon based ;/
Extra 10m/s is irrelevant.

Finally, sentry Ishtar not a problem.
Long range: Virtually no tank. Spends most of his time trying to alpha frigs and dessies. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant at 75-80 km.
Close range: Reduced dps more on tank/reps, Theres no right answer. Could be using nuets and webs plus blasters. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant in brawl range (scram, web), which you most often be in.



Virtually no tank? lol. It can fit very well an extender and resists to allow the scimitars to keep it easily alive.

No other hac have EVEN CLOSE to the same tank while able to hit at 80 km with that level of damage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1583 - 2014-08-18 09:57:23 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
Just ignore Harvey. If you look up his posting history in these types of threads all he ever argues for are more nerfs to Minmatar ships. He wants them all to be slow bricks with no DPS. He's basically a troll.

Minmatar ships aren't what they once were. With the tieracide initiative lots of other ships have gotten faster, have better damage application, etc. Just look at the once mighty Rifter. It's now outclassed in every way by the other T1 frigs. This goes for many of the Matari T2 hulls as well; Muninn, Huginn, Vagabond, Wolf, Jaguar, etc. These ships all need some love to make them competitive with their contemporaries. Sorry but another few meters per second speed boost isn't going to suddenly make the Muninn a good HAC. Please take another look at its role, slot layout, etc.

Finally, please don't make the Tempest even worse by giving it a weird slot layout.


you're just unhappy they are no longer the OP winmatar machines of past ...
its pretty impossible too advocate any speed increases on minmatar ships as they are already the fastest in most categories..
that being said i have advocated for the tempest and Maelstrom too get speed/agility increases .. ofc you glossed over that part it doesn't help you win your argument...



No sosrry they are not the TRULY fastest. EFT warriros might think so, but in REAL game, where acceleration matters, minmatar shps are trashed. What that means? THat before they can reach their final superior speed a gallente boat will outaccelerate them and tackle them.

Minmatar need to go back to their roots. Lose a bit of EHP and lose a bit of mass (or gain agility)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#1584 - 2014-08-18 12:11:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
No other hac able to hit at 80 km with that level of damage.


Fixed that for you.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1585 - 2014-08-18 15:54:00 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
No other hac able to hit at 80 km with that level of damage.


Fixed that for you.



I was being soft.. just that.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
John Ending
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1586 - 2014-08-18 19:08:22 UTC
I'm just really sick of fighting hundreds of ishtars
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1587 - 2014-08-18 23:59:33 UTC
August 26th isn't going to come soon enough...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Demotress
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1588 - 2014-08-19 00:14:23 UTC
what might really nerf the ishtar is instead of a tracking bonus, make it some other kind of bonus for sentries?
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#1589 - 2014-08-19 05:09:34 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Also, Munnin is trash, maybe not so much if autocannon based ;/
Extra 10m/s is irrelevant.

Finally, sentry Ishtar not a problem.
Long range: Virtually no tank. Spends most of his time trying to alpha frigs and dessies. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant at 75-80 km.
Close range: Reduced dps more on tank/reps, Theres no right answer. Could be using nuets and webs plus blasters. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant in brawl range (scram, web), which you most often be in.



Virtually no tank? lol. It can fit very well an extender and resists to allow the scimitars to keep it easily alive.

No other hac have EVEN CLOSE to the same tank while able to hit at 80 km with that level of damage.


You just made my point. It cant tackle anything. Fitting a bunch of drone damage amps and tracking mods deals a lot of damage, but targets larger than dessies can just warp away without taking any real damage. As far as schimitars go, I was speaking of only solo Ishtars. If we're talking t2 logi and hacs thats hard to kill. T2 shields resists.....even on a armor hac are quite high. Add in a fleet in general..........using similar ships with similar capabilities all sniping....same applies to t2 rails and beam lasers(<---which ive never seen used) Its not invincible though or op. Armor hacs with shield logi will die in close range. Lets not forget the old vexor navy issue either. 
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1590 - 2014-08-19 06:27:59 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


No sosrry they are not the TRULY fastest. EFT warriros might think so, but in REAL game, where acceleration matters, minmatar shps are trashed. What that means? THat before they can reach their final superior speed a gallente boat will outaccelerate them and tackle them.

Minmatar need to go back to their roots. Lose a bit of EHP and lose a bit of mass (or gain agility)



However this was discussed in great depth a long time ago. Before the balance pass begun.

Speed and accelleration are too powerful to have both. I personnally wanted Minmatar to be the most agile and retain acceleration and have Gallente have the fastest straight line speed. However it went the other way but it is balanced.

Speed OR Acceleration. You can't have both.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1591 - 2014-08-19 09:59:15 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Also, Munnin is trash, maybe not so much if autocannon based ;/
Extra 10m/s is irrelevant.

Finally, sentry Ishtar not a problem.
Long range: Virtually no tank. Spends most of his time trying to alpha frigs and dessies. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant at 75-80 km.
Close range: Reduced dps more on tank/reps, Theres no right answer. Could be using nuets and webs plus blasters. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant in brawl range (scram, web), which you most often be in.



Virtually no tank? lol. It can fit very well an extender and resists to allow the scimitars to keep it easily alive.

No other hac have EVEN CLOSE to the same tank while able to hit at 80 km with that level of damage.


You just made my point. It cant tackle anything. Fitting a bunch of drone damage amps and tracking mods deals a lot of damage, but targets larger than dessies can just warp away without taking any real damage. As far as schimitars go, I was speaking of only solo Ishtars. If we're talking t2 logi and hacs thats hard to kill. T2 shields resists.....even on a armor hac are quite high. Add in a fleet in general..........using similar ships with similar capabilities all sniping....same applies to t2 rails and beam lasers(<---which ive never seen used) Its not invincible though or op. Armor hacs with shield logi will die in close range. Lets not forget the old vexor navy issue either.



News at 11.. NO ONE TACKLES when fleets have over 100 people!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1592 - 2014-08-19 10:03:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


No sosrry they are not the TRULY fastest. EFT warriros might think so, but in REAL game, where acceleration matters, minmatar shps are trashed. What that means? THat before they can reach their final superior speed a gallente boat will outaccelerate them and tackle them.

Minmatar need to go back to their roots. Lose a bit of EHP and lose a bit of mass (or gain agility)



However this was discussed in great depth a long time ago. Before the balance pass begun.

Speed and accelleration are too powerful to have both. I personnally wanted Minmatar to be the most agile and retain acceleration and have Gallente have the fastest straight line speed. However it went the other way but it is balanced.

Speed OR Acceleration. You can't have both.



Speed is USeless without acceleration. Just test the following. EAGLE.. yes eagle with mwd slow boating while a vagabon orbit it. A vaga will want to orbit roughly around 16 km to avoid web while at same time do some real damage. The eagle can Tackle the vgabond AT WILL!!! Just because vagabond alck of agility makes it unable to turn ad gain speed fast enough . The eagle will TAKE on the vaga and tackle it EASILY.


Speed without acceleration is ok when you have a good damage projection. When trackign enhancers were nerfged.. that was gone.


We as a corp are quite renowed for flying 99% kite ships. And guess what.. we use almost only caldari and gallente ships.... NEver minamtar. Why? Because minmatar are among the worst kite ships due to their high mass and bad agility.

The best kite boats in game are the Orthrus and The TENGU!!!


My Kiting focused clone has a NOMAD set, not a snake set.. know why? Becuase agility is Far far more relevant in real fight conditions. Your max speed is irrelevant if you take so long to get there that you are tackled before you reach 30% of it...


Minmatar should have OK mass and agility. NO need to have the best. But beign HORRIBLE is not acceptable and cancels completely their speed advantage. MInmatar should have reasonable agility and as compensation LESS EHP!!!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1593 - 2014-08-19 11:05:02 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
...Minmatar are among the worst kite ships due to their high mass and bad agility.


Wait, flying scaffolding held together with duct tape and prayers has high mass?

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1594 - 2014-08-19 11:09:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:

You just made my point. It cant tackle anything. Fitting a bunch of drone damage amps and tracking mods deals a lot of damage, but targets larger than dessies can just warp away without taking any real damage. As far as schimitars go, I was speaking of only solo Ishtars. If we're talking t2 logi and hacs thats hard to kill. T2 shields resists.....even on a armor hac are quite high. Add in a fleet in general..........using similar ships with similar capabilities all sniping....same applies to t2 rails and beam lasers(<---which ive never seen used) Its not invincible though or op. Armor hacs with shield logi will die in close range. Lets not forget the old vexor navy issue either.



News at 11.. NO ONE TACKLES when fleets have over 100 people!!!


Not empty quoting.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1595 - 2014-08-19 11:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


No sosrry they are not the TRULY fastest. EFT warriros might think so, but in REAL game, where acceleration matters, minmatar shps are trashed. What that means? THat before they can reach their final superior speed a gallente boat will outaccelerate them and tackle them.

Minmatar need to go back to their roots. Lose a bit of EHP and lose a bit of mass (or gain agility)



However this was discussed in great depth a long time ago. Before the balance pass begun.

Speed and accelleration are too powerful to have both. I personnally wanted Minmatar to be the most agile and retain acceleration and have Gallente have the fastest straight line speed. However it went the other way but it is balanced.

Speed OR Acceleration. You can't have both.



Speed is USeless without acceleration. Just test the following. EAGLE.. yes eagle with mwd slow boating while a vagabon orbit it. A vaga will want to orbit roughly around 16 km to avoid web while at same time do some real damage. The eagle can Tackle the vgabond AT WILL!!! Just because vagabond alck of agility makes it unable to turn ad gain speed fast enough . The eagle will TAKE on the vaga and tackle it EASILY.


Speed without acceleration is ok when you have a good damage projection. When trackign enhancers were nerfged.. that was gone.


We as a corp are quite renowed for flying 99% kite ships. And guess what.. we use almost only caldari and gallente ships.... NEver minamtar. Why? Because minmatar are among the worst kite ships due to their high mass and bad agility.

The best kite boats in game are the Orthrus and The TENGU!!!


My Kiting focused clone has a NOMAD set, not a snake set.. know why? Becuase agility is Far far more relevant in real fight conditions. Your max speed is irrelevant if you take so long to get there that you are tackled before you reach 30% of it...


Minmatar should have OK mass and agility. NO need to have the best. But beign HORRIBLE is not acceptable and cancels completely their speed advantage. MInmatar should have reasonable agility and as compensation LESS EHP!!!!!



But a Vagabond does have a faster rate of acceleration than an Eagle. The only HAC that comes close is the Deimos.
The Vagabond has a rate of acceleration to 80% max velocity of 251.6 m/s^2 (MWD on but not overloaded)
The Deimos has a rate of acceleration to 80% max velocity of 210.96 m/s^2 (MWD on but not overloaded)

The Eagle and Zealot are slower by far. However both of these ships posses better projection.

I'm cunfused as to what you think Minmatar ships are supposed to be able to achieve. If you think that they should be able to burn from 0 m/s at a range of zero from the target (worst case scenario) out of tackle range without the enemy having a chance to tackle/keep up then you've no idea what you're talking about. That's the exact problem we had a few years ago. Minmatar ships were un catchable because they had (by far) the best speed, acceleration and projection in the game. Gallente ships didn't stand a chance because they couldn't do anything with their crappy speed and acceleration coupled to the shortest range weapons in the game.

I'm sure (in fact I know) that you can achieve the days gone past with Winmatar ships by sacrificing tank/projection/dps but that's the whole point. You gotta make a sacrifice!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1596 - 2014-08-19 11:57:19 UTC
it's called range
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#1597 - 2014-08-19 12:22:34 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Also, Munnin is trash, maybe not so much if autocannon based ;/
Extra 10m/s is irrelevant.

Finally, sentry Ishtar not a problem.
Long range: Virtually no tank. Spends most of his time trying to alpha frigs and dessies. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant at 75-80 km.
Close range: Reduced dps more on tank/reps, Theres no right answer. Could be using nuets and webs plus blasters. reduction in tracking bonus is irrelevant in brawl range (scram, web), which you most often be in.



Virtually no tank? lol. It can fit very well an extender and resists to allow the scimitars to keep it easily alive.

No other hac have EVEN CLOSE to the same tank while able to hit at 80 km with that level of damage.


You just made my point. It cant tackle anything. Fitting a bunch of drone damage amps and tracking mods deals a lot of damage, but targets larger than dessies can just warp away without taking any real damage. As far as schimitars go, I was speaking of only solo Ishtars. If we're talking t2 logi and hacs thats hard to kill. T2 shields resists.....even on a armor hac are quite high. Add in a fleet in general..........using similar ships with similar capabilities all sniping....same applies to t2 rails and beam lasers(<---which ive never seen used) Its not invincible though or op. Armor hacs with shield logi will die in close range. Lets not forget the old vexor navy issue either.


You are really being biased on how the ishtards's are used . Solo combat does not usually mean that an ishtar has to come n tackle u . True u cud warp off like u say .. but if i see a solo ishtar fit with triple exentender triple DDA .. there is absolutely no ship that can go after it in the same class . So is the case with most ishtar running sites .. all u have to do is kite to 100 km from the accelgate land and sit .. by the time what ever tackle lands .. u get hit by warderns .. at 70 and gardes at 50 and when ur land ur tackle on it .. ur have already taken a lot of damage from the ishtar and u realized u have to chew thru some 14 k of passive shields . The ishtar uses a weapon system that consumes no pwr grid . Wepons cannot b neutralized, tracking disrupted ( lol really not an option even tho u can ) or damped. It has 5 med slots ( unlike ur beloved VNI) and it can fit 3 exentenders 1 prop and 1 propjamming module. It lands for perfect at 70km dealing 550 dps with warderns . Could u please tell me any other Faction cruiser or HAC capable of doing so .
Marcus Augustus Drakoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1598 - 2014-08-19 13:30:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?

Eagle
- i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...

Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???




Minmatar ships are nerfed enough. I mean seriously, you take away the speed from the Vagabond and you have utterly destroyed the use of the ship. How do you expect it to compete with other HACS like an Ishtar or a Deimos? With a speed nerf, it can't. Not to mention a speed boost to the Muninn? Really? Considering it's an alpha boat with almost no other application in fleets because even it with an AHAC setup, you still can't squeeze much more DPS or survivability out of it. The Mirmir, the special HAC that no one has, is how the Muninn should be set up to compete with other HACS. Also, Changing T3 resists or applications is just crazy. T3's are just that. TECH 3's. There is a reason why you lose SP when you lose a T3, not to mention the cost of applying the ship to fleets because of their ability to be very versatile.
Stouman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1599 - 2014-08-19 14:29:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

How about 7/5/7 ... or no change at all?
I always found those 2 extra high slots to be particularly annoying/useless/confusing on my PvP Tempests,
and just utility slots in PvE.

[To me, Minmatar has always been about the 'gank-tank' as I like to call it; just enough tank to kill them before they kill you.
The Tempest is one of, if not The, epitome of this philosophy in my mind.]

You kill the jackal! You see here a jackal corpse. This jackal corpse tastes terrible! You finish eating the jackal corpse.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#1600 - 2014-08-19 15:02:44 UTC
I wonder as part of any of these rebalances if any considerations has been given to "fixing" T2 resists.

The roleplaying resist bonus were a cute idea when first done, but now outside of FW no one cares about the supposed racial enemies, and even FW does not necessarily fly their races ships.

So the over the top bonus that some races get to specific damage types causes weird issues, especially at the meta level. Such as any laser orientated fleet concept will be instantly vulnerable to facing T2 Minnie, similar things happen to rail and blaster ships vs caladari.

If it was changes to a modification to all resist it may work out better for everyone and make balancing a lot easier.