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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1341 - 2014-08-18 06:47:18 UTC
Kill the API keys.

Make mail notification on the last timer only.

**** out of game management!
Anthar Thebess
#1342 - 2014-08-18 08:47:54 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
Kill the API keys.

Make mail notification on the last timer only.

**** out of game management!


This is good idea.
Now most of the bigger alliances are routing all their warnings to some additional tools , that usually broadcast them to all FC using a jabber.

Even if no one from the corporation is around , information about someone shooting something is transmitted to alliance members.
If this was CCP idea , there should be some API specially for this.
Now it is just abuse of the mechanic.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1343 - 2014-08-18 10:28:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


A few years ago small fleet we able to take on much larger fleets and while they lost the battle they often caused more damage. RR changes now means that today large fleets with a lot of logi often dont lose a single ship while the enemy loses everything. There is zero chance for a small fleet to do anything so they don't bother undocking. This also happens with subcaps vs capital blobs and capital vs capital fights.

If smaller alliances are to ever be a thing in null we need to nerf RR in fleets so that they can stand any chance of doing anything vs the likes of the CFC.



It doesn't have anything to do with smaller fleets vs larger fleets. It has to do with smaller ships overcoming significant defenses. I don't want to go all "grrrr goons" on you but you can't believe people wouldn't see what this would do.

If this was done, then the defensive rep ability of any one target will be X and all you need to do is field X to defeat it.

For anyone able to field X as cheaply as possible, winning would only be a matter of persistence. And neither skill nor scale would be able to amount a better defense than X.

The bigger blob still wins (as before), but removing any ability by the defensive party to hold against it.

You're making this sound like: click here for 'The Secret To Fixing Eve CCP Doesn't Want You To Know About'

What you're talking about is the ability to throw cheap waves of DPS against any defense and being guaranteed offensive progress. Blink


It has everything to do with smaller fleets. Fights today are entirely one sided with zero chance of winning if you dont bring a set amount of logi. We are forever being told the enemy has stood down and it is always because they lack critical mass for logi or lack the firepower to break ours. We do exactly the same.

You dont see mid size roaming gangs anymore or hear about small fleets winning against much bigger ones like we used to. RR has become too powerful and is limiting fights. If you want to fix null you must allow smaller alliances to be able to cause damage to the big boys, otherwise they will be slaughtered every time.


Your doing that thing where you just repeat yourself without addressing what has just been put in front of you.

The larger fleet will only roll over the smaller even faster,
with no effective defense being able to be mounted by the smaller in a defensive situation.

Your change doesn't balance anything, you haven't showed where it does.
You haven't shown how this doesn't provide the same advantage to a larger fleet vs a smaller one (all things are equal here)

You aren't balancing fights to the advantage of small fleets; though perhaps to the advantage of larger but cheaper fleets
You're only doing away with any ability to construct a defense against any fleet past a certain size.

It's amazing you think this will fix 0.0.. but power projection?
Oh, no, that's nothing, *wave arms* look over here at this RR nerf Lol

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1344 - 2014-08-18 10:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


A few years ago small fleet we able to take on much larger fleets and while they lost the battle they often caused more damage. RR changes now means that today large fleets with a lot of logi often dont lose a single ship while the enemy loses everything. There is zero chance for a small fleet to do anything so they don't bother undocking. This also happens with subcaps vs capital blobs and capital vs capital fights.

If smaller alliances are to ever be a thing in null we need to nerf RR in fleets so that they can stand any chance of doing anything vs the likes of the CFC.



It doesn't have anything to do with smaller fleets vs larger fleets. It has to do with smaller ships overcoming significant defenses. I don't want to go all "grrrr goons" on you but you can't believe people wouldn't see what this would do.

If this was done, then the defensive rep ability of any one target will be X and all you need to do is field X to defeat it.

For anyone able to field X as cheaply as possible, winning would only be a matter of persistence. And neither skill nor scale would be able to amount a better defense than X.

The bigger blob still wins (as before), but removing any ability by the defensive party to hold against it.

You're making this sound like: click here for 'The Secret To Fixing Eve CCP Doesn't Want You To Know About'

What you're talking about is the ability to throw cheap waves of DPS against any defense and being guaranteed offensive progress. Blink


It has everything to do with smaller fleets. Fights today are entirely one sided with zero chance of winning if you dont bring a set amount of logi. We are forever being told the enemy has stood down and it is always because they lack critical mass for logi or lack the firepower to break ours. We do exactly the same.

You dont see mid size roaming gangs anymore or hear about small fleets winning against much bigger ones like we used to. RR has become too powerful and is limiting fights. If you want to fix null you must allow smaller alliances to be able to cause damage to the big boys, otherwise they will be slaughtered every time.


Your doing that thing where you just repeat yourself without addressing what has just been put in front of you.

The larger fleet will only roll over the smaller even faster,
with no effective defense being able to be mounted by the smaller in a defensive situation.

Your change doesn't balance anything, you haven't showed where it does.
You haven't shown how this doesn't provide the same advantage to a larger fleet vs a smaller one (all things are equal here)

You aren't balancing fights to the advantage of small fleets; though perhaps to the advantage of larger but cheaper fleets
You're only doing away with any ability to construct a defense against any fleet past a certain size.

It's amazing you think this will fix 0.0.. but power projection?
Oh, no, that's nothing, *wave arms* look over here at this RR nerf Lol


You ignore the fact that it used to happen before CCP buffed RR.

We currently are in a situation where the bigger fleet takes near no losses while the smaller one gets wiped out entirely. People wont fight if they cant kill anything which is why RR must be nerfed so that smaller alliances can at least stand some chance.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1345 - 2014-08-18 10:48:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


A few years ago small fleet we able to take on much larger fleets and while they lost the battle they often caused more damage. RR changes now means that today large fleets with a lot of logi often dont lose a single ship while the enemy loses everything. There is zero chance for a small fleet to do anything so they don't bother undocking. This also happens with subcaps vs capital blobs and capital vs capital fights.

If smaller alliances are to ever be a thing in null we need to nerf RR in fleets so that they can stand any chance of doing anything vs the likes of the CFC.



It doesn't have anything to do with smaller fleets vs larger fleets. It has to do with smaller ships overcoming significant defenses. I don't want to go all "grrrr goons" on you but you can't believe people wouldn't see what this would do.

If this was done, then the defensive rep ability of any one target will be X and all you need to do is field X to defeat it.

For anyone able to field X as cheaply as possible, winning would only be a matter of persistence. And neither skill nor scale would be able to amount a better defense than X.

The bigger blob still wins (as before), but removing any ability by the defensive party to hold against it.

You're making this sound like: click here for 'The Secret To Fixing Eve CCP Doesn't Want You To Know About'

What you're talking about is the ability to throw cheap waves of DPS against any defense and being guaranteed offensive progress. Blink


It has everything to do with smaller fleets. Fights today are entirely one sided with zero chance of winning if you dont bring a set amount of logi. We are forever being told the enemy has stood down and it is always because they lack critical mass for logi or lack the firepower to break ours. We do exactly the same.

You dont see mid size roaming gangs anymore or hear about small fleets winning against much bigger ones like we used to. RR has become too powerful and is limiting fights. If you want to fix null you must allow smaller alliances to be able to cause damage to the big boys, otherwise they will be slaughtered every time.


Your doing that thing where you just repeat yourself without addressing what has just been put in front of you.

The larger fleet will only roll over the smaller even faster,
with no effective defense being able to be mounted by the smaller in a defensive situation.

Your change doesn't balance anything, you haven't showed where it does.
You haven't shown how this doesn't provide the same advantage to a larger fleet vs a smaller one (all things are equal here)

You aren't balancing fights to the advantage of small fleets; though perhaps to the advantage of larger but cheaper fleets
You're only doing away with any ability to construct a defense against any fleet past a certain size.

It's amazing you think this will fix 0.0.. but power projection?
Oh, no, that's nothing, *wave arms* look over here at this RR nerf Lol


You ignore the fact that it used to happen before CCP buffed RR.

We currently are in a situation where the bigger fleet takes near no losses while the smaller one gets wiped out entirely. People wont fight if they can kill anything which is why RR must be nerfed so that smaller alliances can at least stand some chance.


People used to mine in battleships to build their fleets. That doesn't serve as evidence of any great balance theory.

You haven't quantified anything here.
And more importantly, you haven't responded to the other effects this change would introduce.

We aren't interested in your personal faith and beliefs, put up or shut up.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1346 - 2014-08-18 10:59:59 UTC
This from a pair of NPC corp alts who have likely never been in null for more than a month.

I have indeed told you exactly why the RR change is needed, you are simply chosing to ignore it because you seem to think that the current situation of unkillable blobs and one sided slaughters is better than a smaller fleet being able to at the very least take a large number of ships with them.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1347 - 2014-08-18 11:26:04 UTC
Lol, better attack me vs my points eh baltec?

You literally haven't explained anything. Stating a thing doesn't magically make it so.

See it works like this:

In a situation of equal distanced goals across eve A,B,C ,D; by nerfing power projection and slowing response times we can provide a situation where only two strategic goals can be accomplished in X time without utilization of mechanics that offer other delimiting and impacting downsides. This changes the status quo as timer based defenses can be strategized by region and thus exploited whereas they cannot be currently

Your retort to that is "nothing will change we r persistant" (ignoring no one mentioned YOU to begin with :p)

You then state if we remove remote reps smaller fleets will win.

I asked how this does any sort of thing (how on earth does rr removal help 50 of a hull stand against 150)?

"Well it just does, it used to happen dog"

In fact, I'm in fleets all the time where our ability to better use RR is the sole reason we're able to stand against larger groups.

You not only haven't provided any logical proof of your statements, current reality contradicts the way you seem to think offense/defense works.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1348 - 2014-08-18 11:30:22 UTC
RR is good,

You can kill RR with many ways, I believe you need more f1 peasants in megas than in ecm damp ceptors or anything that can kill the RR.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1349 - 2014-08-18 13:10:45 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Lol, better attack me vs my points eh baltec?

You literally haven't explained anything. Stating a thing doesn't magically make it so.

See it works like this:

In a situation of equal distanced goals across eve A,B,C ,D; by nerfing power projection and slowing response times we can provide a situation where only two strategic goals can be accomplished in X time without utilization of mechanics that offer other delimiting and impacting downsides. This changes the status quo as timer based defenses can be strategized by region and thus exploited whereas they cannot be currently

Your retort to that is "nothing will change we r persistant" (ignoring no one mentioned YOU to begin with :p)

You then state if we remove remote reps smaller fleets will win.

I asked how this does any sort of thing (how on earth does rr removal help 50 of a hull stand against 150)?

"Well it just does, it used to happen dog"

In fact, I'm in fleets all the time where our ability to better use RR is the sole reason we're able to stand against larger groups.

You not only haven't provided any logical proof of your statements, current reality contradicts the way you seem to think offense/defense works.


EG deal with threat A

SV deal with threat B

Freedom deal with threat C

FA deal with threat C

That leaves several other sigs for further deployment. At the same time our enemy cannot deploy as quickly as before so we have the exact same situation as now only slower.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1350 - 2014-08-18 13:17:15 UTC
cpt Niki wrote:
RR is good,

You can kill RR with many ways, I believe you need more f1 peasants in megas than in ecm damp ceptors or anything that can kill the RR.



Past a point you cant, that is the problem. Right now fight all go the same way, one side takes few losses the other gets wiped out. A fight with even losses on both sides just doesn't happen anymore. Throw in a boot fleet and the enemy subcaps can either quit the fight or die without any hope of killing anything.
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1351 - 2014-08-18 13:27:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
cpt Niki wrote:
RR is good,

You can kill RR with many ways, I believe you need more f1 peasants in megas than in ecm damp ceptors or anything that can kill the RR.



Past a point you cant, that is the problem. Right now fight all go the same way, one side takes few losses the other gets wiped out. A fight with even losses on both sides just doesn't happen anymore. Throw in a boot fleet and the enemy subcaps can either quit the fight or die without any hope of killing anything.



So there is your problem, not the RR. stop bringing 1k peasants and you can have it.
Stop the nerf, search deeper for a solution.

A great Idea is also a grid with points, CCP should make a way to give points to every ship that is on grid and taking in account the standings will vanish (like AT) those points that exceed the limit!
Yes that way we will have a fair fight!

Kill the API make out of game management not possible!
Make players talk to each other to gain trust
Make those who play the game to spent time to Manage their alliance / corporation / coalition.

No notifications for everything! go out there and see if your borders are been invaded.

Search something else in the core gameplay not ideas like nerf this nerf that!

Whatever you propose is based on the ******* numbers!
they have 100 logis go out there with 200 blackbirds you think blackberds are paperthin? go with scorpions.

the logi shi..t has a counter but you are asking for more peasants in dps ships.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1352 - 2014-08-18 13:36:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Lol, better attack me vs my points eh baltec?

You literally haven't explained anything. Stating a thing doesn't magically make it so.

See it works like this:

In a situation of equal distanced goals across eve A,B,C ,D; by nerfing power projection and slowing response times we can provide a situation where only two strategic goals can be accomplished in X time without utilization of mechanics that offer other delimiting and impacting downsides. This changes the status quo as timer based defenses can be strategized by region and thus exploited whereas they cannot be currently

Your retort to that is "nothing will change we r persistant" (ignoring no one mentioned YOU to begin with :p)

You then state if we remove remote reps smaller fleets will win.

I asked how this does any sort of thing (how on earth does rr removal help 50 of a hull stand against 150)?

"Well it just does, it used to happen dog"

In fact, I'm in fleets all the time where our ability to better use RR is the sole reason we're able to stand against larger groups.

You not only haven't provided any logical proof of your statements, current reality contradicts the way you seem to think offense/defense works.


EG deal with threat A

SV deal with threat B

Freedom deal with threat C

FA deal with


Yes, duh, ttp

And never the twain shall meet while accomplishing their individual goals to bail out the other should one of these turn out bad; or not without abandoning/diverting from its own task.

By seperating and crucially, yes, slowing it down, groups will have to committ to actions by only having the ability to address so much in a given period of time.

Because you cannot conquer what can never (practically speaking) be divided.
This doesn't occur to you as a change for the better from today though I imagine.

But removing RR is going to make it all better.... because. Amazing. :D

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1353 - 2014-08-18 13:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
http://themittani.com/features/driving-meta-n1-and-logistics-cruiser?page=0%2C0

A detailed look into why RR is causing so many issues.

http://themittani.com/features/rethinking-nullsec

A more in depth look at nulls problems including RR.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1354 - 2014-08-18 14:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ninteen Seventy-Nine
baltec1 wrote:
http://themittani.com/features/rethinking-nullsec

A more in depth look at nulls problems including RR.


Yes that article isn't news. Nor is it filled with much aside from fantasy replacements for RR that are all shot down as short sighted by its own author and contingent on many other unspecified changes needing to take place.

It's right that the paradigm needs to change but attacks that from the complete wrong direction. The problem is the need to field a ball of motherships and titans to begin with.

And that will not be accomplished nor nullified by hamfisted changes to pvp logistics as a whole in some vain attempt to change only the largest null battleballs.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1355 - 2014-08-18 14:52:13 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
http://themittani.com/features/rethinking-nullsec

A more in depth look at nulls problems including RR.


Yes that article isn't news. Nor is it filled with much aside from fantasy replacements for RR that are all shot down as short sighted by its own author and contingent on many other unspecified changes needing to take place.

It's right that the paradigm needs to change but attacks that from the complete wrong direction. The problem is the need to field a ball of motherships and titans to begin with.

And that will not be accomplished nor nullified by hamfisted changes to pvp logistics as a whole in some vain attempt to change only the largest null battleballs.


Logistics are exactly the cause of these massive fleets. You need to bring the firepower to alpha ships before reps can land which means massive fleets. Boot fleet and wrecking ball are the natural evolution of the logi/alpha meta that the current mechanics demand. Smaller alliances have no hope of even killing anything in fights vs the big powers.

Yes, people dont like to hear this. People dont want to lose the current logistics meta. But it needs to happen in order for smaller alliances to be viable in null sec no mater what sov system is put in place. Hell my name will one of the first called out in any fight, but I accept that this change needs to happen.
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Doomheim
#1356 - 2014-08-18 15:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
baltec1 wrote:


Logistics are exactly the cause of these massive fleets. You need to bring the firepower to alpha ships before reps can land which means massive fleets. Boot fleet and wrecking ball are the natural evolution of the logi/alpha meta that the current mechanics demand. Smaller alliances have no hope of even killing anything in fights vs the big powers.

.



Try capacitor warfare or e-war. The tools are there for you to deal with these issues. It is up to the players to find counters to the current meta, not CCP. You goons are always asking for the game to be changed when you can't figure something out. Usually there is always a solution and you just aren't willing to see it or try it. Your problems are caused by your own hubris and unwillingness to adapt.

Nullsec stagnation has nothing to do with these mechanics. The reason there is a blue doughnut is because the leadership of the two big power blocks have chosen not to fight. You want CCP to change the game for you when the players have the power to change it for themselves. How typical.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1357 - 2014-08-18 15:07:56 UTC
No.

Massive fleets are the cause of massive fleets. You're just trying to sell some 'new truth' at this point.

And your solution isn't going to change any of that. There will remain (or increase) the need to throw massive numbers at a target goal.

All it does is eliminate defensive options so that fights would boil down to spam of dps/ewar. Absolutely nothing you've said here or contained in those articles suggests otherwise. No 'small fleets now defeating superior numbers' nor how this magically breaks up huge fleet sizes.

But do you know what would break those fleets up?

Needing to divide themselves to commit to fights on seperate fronts and removing the ability for everyone to instantly respond to assist their friends on the opposite side of known space.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1358 - 2014-08-18 15:11:27 UTC
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Logistics are exactly the cause of these massive fleets. You need to bring the firepower to alpha ships before reps can land which means massive fleets. Boot fleet and wrecking ball are the natural evolution of the logi/alpha meta that the current mechanics demand. Smaller alliances have no hope of even killing anything in fights vs the big powers.

.



Try capacitor warfare or e-war. The tools are there for you to deal with these issues. It is up to the players to find counters to the current meta, not CCP. You goons are always asking for the game to be changed when you can't figure something out. Usually there is always a solution and you just aren't willing to see it or try it. Your problems are caused by your own hubris and unwillingness to adapt.


Cap warfare doesnt work and ECM wont either. Both do poorly in large fleets as it is impossible to cordinate them. We do use damps in FYF but they are useless vs wreckingball fleets and only marginally effective vs subcaps.

The only people who think ECM and neuts are viable are people have never fought in null sec wars.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1359 - 2014-08-18 15:15:22 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
No.

Massive fleets are the cause of massive fleets. You're just trying to sell some 'new truth' at this point.

And your solution isn't going to change any of that. There will remain (or increase) the need to throw massive numbers at a target goal.

All it does is eliminate defensive options so that fights would boil down to spam of dps/ewar. Absolutely nothing you've said here or contained in those articles suggests otherwise. No 'small fleets now defeating superior numbers' nor how this magically breaks up huge fleet sizes.

But do you know what would break those fleets up?

Needing to divide themselves to commit to fights on seperate fronts and removing the ability for everyone to instantly respond to assist their friends on the opposite side of known space.


I already showed you that we already split our forces up. The exact same deployment structure we use now would continue to be effective if you remove jump bridges, and all capitals entirely from the game.
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Doomheim
#1360 - 2014-08-18 15:20:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Both do poorly in large fleets as it is impossible to cordinate them. .


Lol

Sounds like Goons need to learn to play instead of face rolling to victory via numbers. There is a solution, you are just unwilling put forth the effort.