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Making Policies Clear : TOS and Third Party Policy

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Faenir Antollare
For Ever And Ever
#61 - 2014-08-17 11:40:26 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
TL;DR?

Don't RMT, or the GM Team will spank you. Use best judgement and don't be dumb.

Long version?

Trading your in game stuff or ISK for out of game currency or services is bad, and the GM Team will spank you.

We make exceptions for this, such as people paying for killboard hosting, or commissioning other players for forum signatures or artwork, because these are services that are directly related to EVE Online and are something that enriches both the game and community.

It's a solid rule, but CCP will always use our own judgement and discretion on a case by case basis, the same as with every other aspect of our policies.

You guys are far too creative and way too clever for us to have a black and white, do or die policy. There needs to be some flexibility when dealing with edge cases and oddball situations that come up.





This alone goes a long way in explaining our passion for Eve, allow common sense to prevail whenever possible and it is win win for all.

(I allow my Son to have the odd half hour on my account, I have never ever earnt anything from that and indeed have lost expensive spaceships whilst doing so, I know full well that this is wrong but just How could I ever say no to him)

Viva la Eve Viva L'Amour

RiP BooBoo 26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014 My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
Aineko Macx
#62 - 2014-08-18 06:02:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:

When Entity started the Reverence project, he asked CCP if cache scraping was allowed and they greenlighted it. In this blogpost theres a quote of Entity stating that his code was reviewed by CCP and here is another CCP post blessing cache scraping. Later claiming that it has always been prohibited is unprofessional of CCP, at least.
No, it's not. Policies change, especially in response to developments in how far those policies are being stretched. They communicated this change very loudly, publicly, and clearly. “Unprofessional” would have been to ignore the stretching and/or to not communicate anything.

And those posts and the references within them are all months or even years older than the revised policy, so they certainly don't show that it is currently allowed.

It's irrelevant how old those posts are. If the CTO of CCP said it's ok, and later they changed their minds about it, they should say "we changed our minds" not "it was never allowed".

Needless to say, the whole 3rd party developer situation is unacceptable, especially for those running those big, popular and expensive to run services.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2014-08-18 06:45:52 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Enforceable? If my "mate" washes my car for ISK, how the hell would anyone know?
"Laws that aren't enforceable make ridiculous a judicial system." - Some Smart Guy -

It's rather dumb, actually, to forgo cash payment for ISK when some of that cash can buy PLEX.
The rest of it can buy a six pack of beer and other amenities. *spliff*

(Posting on yet another ridiculous GD thread. MA! Call the fire department! They may be bored!)



You get reported you get banned. You keep it quiet you get away with it. It's not really an interesting edge case.


A more interesting example from a legal perspective is sneaky stuff like "You sell an API database application for iPhone and Samsung S5 for cash in the app stores. You give to your customers for free the code necessary for it to work with EVE"
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
#64 - 2014-08-18 08:04:06 UTC
How about this guys:

EULA
Section "Your Account"
Subsection "A. Establishing a New Account"
Paragraph 4:

"Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited."

That just about sums it up for me.

TAUTX: Private Bank & Lending

TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items
Memrox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-08-18 08:18:42 UTC
RMT is simple if you think about it.

If your name is Somer Blink you are allowed, if not you aren't.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#66 - 2014-08-18 09:01:10 UTC
Memrox wrote:
RMT is simple if you think about it.

If your name is Somer Blink you are allowed, if not you aren't.


They should just put that exact line in the EULA.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2014-08-18 09:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Aineko Macx wrote:
It's irrelevant how old those posts are. If the CTO of CCP said it's ok, and later they changed their minds about it, they should say "we changed our minds" not "it was never allowed".
…and did he ever say that?

Quote:
Needless to say, the whole 3rd party developer situation is unacceptable, especially for those running those big, popular and expensive to run services.
How so? There's nothing in the 3PP that should even affect them.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2014-08-18 11:47:02 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
Stating that cache scraping is not permitted and is a bannable offense doesn't strike you as wrong?

No. As the rule says they may at their sole discretion deliver appropriate penalties.
Just because they're using their discretion until proper CREST methods have been put in place does not mean it is allowed or that the policy is wrong.

Quote:
You know that cache scraping is currently allowed?
Do you have a source for this?

When Entity started the Reverence project, he asked CCP if cache scraping was allowed and they greenlighted it. In this blogpost theres a quote of Entity stating that his code was reviewed by CCP and here is another CCP post blessing cache scraping. Later claiming that it has always been prohibited is unprofessional of CCP, at least.

CREST now has price data, but it is largely useless, for several reasons:
- They are globaly averaged values with a large moving window that deviate significantly from what you see in the market hubs
- No info on volume, transactions, spread, or actual orders. Without this, you can't even near to estimate what realistic sell or buy prices are.

The only utility they bring is that they are required to compute the install cost of industrial activities.


Are you aware of: https://public-crest.eveonline.com/market/10000002/types/2268/history/

That is price history data, does not include individual order information or today's information but other than that pretty complete. It is per region and per type. So yea, derp herp fun.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#69 - 2014-08-18 12:01:12 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
...

Are you aware of: https://public-crest.eveonline.com/market/10000002/types/2268/history/

That is price history data, does not include individual order information or today's information but other than that pretty complete. It is per region and per type. So yea, derp herp fun.

To be fair, the low and high prices seem to be absolutes and aren't anywhere near as useful as a high buy price and low sell price, which is what you can get from cache scraped data. I'm all for expanding CREST functionality until it can replace the need for the API and the cache, but it still needs more functionality to be able to compare with the current crowd-sourced cache-scraped databases.
Aineko Macx
#70 - 2014-08-18 20:25:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
It's irrelevant how old those posts are. If the CTO of CCP said it's ok, and later they changed their minds about it, they should say "we changed our minds" not "it was never allowed".
…and did he ever say that?

He said it Roll and then there
Quote:
Quote:
Needless to say, the whole 3rd party developer situation is unacceptable, especially for those running those big, popular and expensive to run services.
How so? There's nothing in the 3PP that should even affect them.

Ok, this criticism goes beyond 3PP, but how developers are put roughly in the same bad corner as botters doing things like cache scraping. They are dependent on data and APIs from CCP for which there is no legal or technical certainties and additionally it's low priority for CCP. The 3rd party developer license proposed so far is disappointing. Let me reference one first hand perspective: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4399571#post4399571

CCP FoxFour wrote:
Are you aware of: https://public-crest.eveonline.com/market/10000002/types/2268/history/

That is price history data, does not include individual order information or today's information but other than that pretty complete. It is per region and per type. So yea, derp herp fun.

Ok, so we have volume and avg per region as useful data, but for herp derp fun quite a bit more is needed.
With just hi/low+avg+vol there is no way of estimating what the realistic sell or buy prices for items in tradehubs are. If you don't want to give us actual order data, separate (volume weighted) averages for filled buy and sell orders would do, even with a delay.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Csill Es
Doomheim
#71 - 2014-08-19 03:28:31 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
TL;DR?

Don't RMT, or the GM Team will spank you. Use best judgement and don't be dumb.

Long version?

Trading your in game stuff or ISK for out of game currency or services is bad, and the GM Team will spank you.

We make exceptions for this, such as people paying for killboard hosting, or commissioning other players for forum signatures or artwork, because these are services that are directly related to EVE Online and are something that enriches both the game and community.

It's a solid rule, but CCP will always use our own judgement and discretion on a case by case basis, the same as with every other aspect of our policies.

You guys are far too creative and way too clever for us to have a black and white, do or die policy. There needs to be some flexibility when dealing with edge cases and oddball situations that come up.




Short version: can you spell c o r r u p t i o n..
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2014-08-19 03:35:18 UTC
Csill Es wrote:
Short version: can you spell c o r r u p t i o n..

I'd ask you for an elaboration but since you know what you wrote was bullshit, I know I'm not going to get one.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-08-19 14:49:13 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
TL;DR?

Don't RMT, or the GM Team will spank you. Use best judgement and don't be dumb.

Long version?

Trading your in game stuff or ISK for out of game currency or services is bad, and the GM Team will spank you.

We make exceptions for this, such as people paying for killboard hosting, or commissioning other players for forum signatures or artwork, because these are services that are directly related to EVE Online and are something that enriches both the game and community.

It's a solid rule, but CCP will always use our own judgement and discretion on a case by case basis, the same as with every other aspect of our policies.

You guys are far too creative and way too clever for us to have a black and white, do or die policy. There needs to be some flexibility when dealing with edge cases and oddball situations that come up.




So what you are saying is the more complicated you make the RMT the longer it will take you to investigate which means a few months down the road everyone will have forgot about it. Technically you are saying the rules are mearly guidelines to follow and CCP can enforce or not enforce whatever they like.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
Csill Es
Doomheim
#74 - 2014-08-19 15:27:40 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Csill Es wrote:
Short version: can you spell c o r r u p t i o n..

I'd ask you for an elaboration but since you know what you wrote was bullshit, I know I'm not going to get one.


"CCP Falcon wrote:

...... Trading your in game stuff or ISK for out of game currency or services is bad, and the GM Team will spank you.

We make exceptions for this, such as people paying for killboard hosting, or
commissioning other players for forum signatures or artwork, because these are services that are directly related to
EVE Online and are something that enriches both the game and community.

It's a solid rule, but CCP will always use our own judgement and
discretion on a case by case basis, the same as with every other aspect of our policies. ....."

Not having well defined, consistently applied and - most important - transparent policies lead to a slippery slope. When policies are applied "case by case" combined with total lack of transparency, the outcome is always questionable.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#75 - 2014-08-19 15:34:37 UTC
Csill Es wrote:

Not having well defined, consistently applied and - most important - transparent policies lead to a slippery slope. When policies are applied "case by case" combined with total lack of transparency, the outcome is always questionable.


I agree 100%

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-08-19 16:21:26 UTC
Csill Es wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Csill Es wrote:
Short version: can you spell c o r r u p t i o n..

I'd ask you for an elaboration but since you know what you wrote was bullshit, I know I'm not going to get one.


"CCP Falcon wrote:

...... Trading your in game stuff or ISK for out of game currency or services is bad, and the GM Team will spank you.

We make exceptions for this, such as people paying for killboard hosting, or
commissioning other players for forum signatures or artwork, because these are services that are directly related to
EVE Online and are something that enriches both the game and community.

It's a solid rule, but CCP will always use our own judgement and
discretion on a case by case basis, the same as with every other aspect of our policies. ....."

Not having well defined, consistently applied and - most important - transparent policies lead to a slippery slope. When policies are applied "case by case" combined with total lack of transparency, the outcome is always questionable.



Absolutely agree.