These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1321 - 2014-08-17 18:44:41 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Why people are not complaining about those ships being OP, or broken?



Everyone does.

Boot fleet/wrecking ball are horrible things that must be ended. They make taking space impossible for the two powerblocks let alone any smaller alliances.
Anthar Thebess
#1322 - 2014-08-17 18:45:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

We have sigs stationed much closer and we also have these things called jump clones. We don't have to.


those "things called jump clones" (hurrrr) are a one trick every X hour pony.

Of course you can start podding yourself after each goal is accomplished I suppose. But that comes with it's own costs as well.

You just don't want to admit that maybe blinking fleets everywhere on demand is an issue.

No worries, you don't have to agree. But you will have to settle with being biased and incorrect. Lol


Jumpclone every 24 hours. Timers last around 2 days.

We have the time.




Check people suggestions.
- Limit the number of jump clones or limit places where you can have jump clones . 2 -3 stations contacting multiple clones, why not.
- No death cloning in nullsec and lowsec . How? By for biding to change your cloning station remotely. You can only change station to any higsec available , or to one you are currently docked in nullsec and lowsec.
- Timers based on alliance members activity in the system - so you can get systems having NO TIMERS, or having like 2-3 hour timer. Sorry , you won't say that this system is important ... no one is doing any thing there.
- No instant jumping by jump / titan bridges or by jump drive.

So like you see all your points have been solved by people suggestions.
What , if any , CCP choose - no one knows.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1323 - 2014-08-17 18:47:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


We have the time.



You have the time to what?

The time to miss an opportunity to defend something on the opposite side of the game if you can't be everywhere at once?

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Anthar Thebess
#1324 - 2014-08-17 18:48:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Why people are not complaining about those ships being OP, or broken?



Everyone does.

Boot fleet/wrecking ball are horrible things that must be ended. They make taking space impossible for the two powerblocks let alone any smaller alliances.


Read my post.
I'm not talking about carriers.
Only about dreads.

Dreads that need support fleet that will protect them.
Dreads that only useful when they are in siege.
While in siege, they cannot receive aid , they cannot move, cannot jump out.
Dreads that you can easily tackle and kill using T1 ships.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Anthar Thebess
#1325 - 2014-08-17 18:50:04 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


We have the time.



You have the time to what?

The time to miss an opportunity to defend something on the opposite side of the game if you can't be everywhere at once?

Exacly.
I think that if changes that people are asking will be applied.
CFC could loose around 50% of their space.
N3 will be left with around 1/3 or 1/4 of their current space - the same goes for PL.

Rest of space will be ~to take~ for every small group, or new players.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1326 - 2014-08-17 18:54:57 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


We have the time.



You have the time to what?

The time to miss an opportunity to defend something on the opposite side of the game if you can't be everywhere at once?

Exacly.
I think that if changes that people are asking will be applied.
CFC could loose around 50% of their space.
N3 will be left with around 1/3 or 1/4 of their current space - the same goes for PL.

Rest of space will be ~to take~ for every small group, or new players.


Not by nerfing power projection you wont. We will still be able to hold everything we currently own.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1327 - 2014-08-17 19:11:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Not by nerfing power projection you wont. We will still be able to hold everything we currently own.


If you keep repeating it, it MUST be the truth Roll
trolololo

Did you come to this thread to discuss mechanics? Or just to repeatedly insist on closely held beliefs.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Anthar Thebess
#1328 - 2014-08-17 19:20:54 UTC
OK , but how?
Lets assume that what you see on those maps represents system activity. In most of the cases it really do.
So this is no 24h activity , but lets assume median from whole week activity.

Some random regions:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Period_Basis/#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Cache#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Wicked_Creek#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Tenerifis#npc24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Esoteria#npc24

From what i see 80-90% of a space in all of those regions will have NO TIMERS, as there is no alliance members activity.

This means, that at any time, any group can come and without placing SBU just kill TCU.

On the opposite :
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Deklein#npc24
This how looks like region that people are using.
Yes there are some white spots, but in every constellation few systems have proper activity.
This will make this region hard to take.

That is why people suggest also :
- sov missions
- increasing sov bills for systems not used
- escalating multiple times sov costs for all unconnected sov systems
- some of the upgrades working only at proper index.

etc.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1329 - 2014-08-17 19:48:40 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:


If you keep repeating it, it MUST be the truth Roll


Perfectly describes what you are doing right now. You have been told several times now why nerfing power projection will make zero impact on sov space other make everything take longer.

Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:

Did you come to this thread to discuss mechanics? Or just to repeatedly insist on closely held beliefs.



Posted what we want several times.

Residency based sov:

In order to claim sov you must live in the space. Around 80% of systems are currently empty yet we can maintain sov, under a residency based system it would become impossible to hold these systems. Thousands of systems would be free to take for small alliances.

Empire Sprawl:

One of the big reasons we have these vast tracts of space is because of the way the mechanics handle ratting. Currently a good system can support 10 ratters at most, poor systems less. So as you can tell the CFC requires a huge amount of space to support its members. Ironicly the vast bulk of this space goes unused because in terms of isk generation your better off running level 3s in empire. Nevertheless we need to hold this space.

In order for residency based sov to work we must get rid of this need to hold huge amounts of space. Null mission agents are the perfect answer as they allow any number of people to live in one system, generate less new isk per mission runner than anoms and the rewards are higher than high sec. This will eliminate the need for empire spawl.

Remote Repair:

One of the biggest issues with fighting in nullsec is that smaller fleets cannot hurt large ones thanks to RR support. There is no point in attacking if you cant hurt your enemy so the only answer is to stand down. This problem only gets worse when you start dropping capitals which are now all but immortal vs subcaps. The answer here is to implement diminishing returns on RR so that past a point more reps add nothing.

This will result in much more bloody fights and smaller fleets can stand a chance to at the very least cause some damage.

Capitals, supers and titans:

A pain to everyone including the people that fly them.

Wreckingball/boot fleet needs to die. Carriers should at the very least lose the ability to drop sentries, probably even just be able to launch fighters. This combined with the RR nerf would end the near immortal deathballs.

Supers meanwhile need two things. First they should lose their Ewar immunity, then in return they and titans gain the ability to dock in stations. This solves the long standing problem of high skilled player leaving due to being stuck in these space coffins and getting bored with life.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1330 - 2014-08-17 20:43:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Perfectly describes what you are doing right now. You have been told several times now why nerfing power projection will make zero impact on sov space other make everything take longer.


No, it's completely the opposite of what I'm doing.
I told you that if the goal is to do exactly that, it would accomplish it well.

If you are being assaulted at A, B and C across the game, you can get to all of them in minimal time and with minimal trouble. Who says that's desired or needed? And how do you suggest because of jump clones and stargates you're magically going to be able to field the desired fleet at all of those locations the same way as you can today??

Breaking up the blob was always a loaded term but was never taken seriously. There is really nothing inhibiting movement across the game and I'm not just blindly insisting that as a fact, it's evidenced by the ability to defend space on-demand in multiple locations without the concern of it taking long at all.

"other make everything take longer"(sic) is the whole point. If it did, power projection wouldn't be able to accomplish what it does today in the times it can today.

Every mechanic in this game revolving around sov involves TIMERS. Ignoring the value in zero-minimal time required to respond to these TIMERS is just fantasy.

Just saying "power projection nerf wont stop or change anything" is not true when you can show that it would very much change the game when you consider it's a game built around TIMERS.

baltec1 wrote:

Posted what we want several times.

Residency based sov:

In order to claim sov you must live in the space. Around 80% of systems are currently empty yet we can maintain sov, under a residency based system it would become impossible to hold these systems. Thousands of systems would be free to take for small alliances.

Empire Sprawl:

One of the big reasons we have these vast tracts of space is because of the way the mechanics handle ratting. Currently a good system can support 10 ratters at most, poor systems less. So as you can tell the CFC requires a huge amount of space to support its members. Ironicly the vast bulk of this space goes unused because in terms of isk generation your better off running level 3s in empire. Nevertheless we need to hold this space.

In order for residency based sov to work we must get rid of this need to hold huge amounts of space. Null mission agents are the perfect answer as they allow any number of people to live in one system, generate less new isk per mission runner than anoms and the rewards are higher than high sec. This will eliminate the need for empire spawl.



I like residency based sov that builds incentives and rewards for systems. And more null agents (more piracy faction agents specifically)

But how do you reconcile suggesting that you both NEED all your space while in the same breath acknowledging you do not use it?

baltec1 wrote:

Remote Repair:

One of the biggest issues with fighting in nullsec is that smaller fleets cannot hurt large ones thanks to RR support. There is no point in attacking if you cant hurt your enemy so the only answer is to stand down. This problem only gets worse when you start dropping capitals which are now all but immortal vs subcaps. The answer here is to implement diminishing returns on RR so that past a point more reps add nothing.

This will result in much more bloody fights and smaller fleets can stand a chance to at the very least cause some damage.


What!?!?! DID I JUST READ?!

All things being equal, larger entities will usually have the upper hand. Numbers are numbers no changing that.

We aren't going to make a world where smaller fleets beats larger ones by nerfing defense. I KNOW you know that.

All things equal, the smaller fleet will just get rolled over by the large one faster. Unless you're suggesting a world where subcaps can more easily kill caps? And that's not a small fleet vs large fleet discussion at all. That's a shift in game role tilting severely towards subcaps.

Nerfing the ability to keep a target up and alive is a nerf to defense. To guarantee an outcome past a certain offensive dps figure (blob size).

But nerfing the ability to defend only guarantees someone will lose in that matching instead of the only other possible outcome (stalemate). I'm afraid doing what you suggest might only help already skewed battles turn into steamrolls and holding off an onslaught literally impossible.

Yes, definitely bloodier battles. And no way to stop throwing waves of crap dps against significantly more valuable targets.

baltec1 wrote:

Capitals, supers and titans:

A pain to everyone including the people that fly them.

Wreckingball/boot fleet needs to die. Carriers should at the very least lose the ability to drop sentries, probably even just be able to launch fighters. This combined with the RR nerf would end the near immortal deathballs.

Supers meanwhile need two things. First they should lose their Ewar immunity, then in return they and titans gain the ability to dock in stations. This solves the long standing problem of high skilled player leaving due to being stuck in these space coffins and getting bored with life.


I agree with pretty much all of this but the already discussed RR topic.

Just the removal of ewar immunity is a massive shift in game dynamic towards subcaps.
It might go too far. I think immunity regarding damps and jams should probably remain and I do like the fighters/bombers only change to (super)carriers.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1331 - 2014-08-17 21:00:03 UTC
A great shift to the cap balls you discuss would be an honest look at roles for these ships.

Let's face it, CCP's been playing null by ear since the get go.

Earlier in this thread I wrote a couple posts about numbers and mechanics we often never consider when we talk about balance.

What if capitals and supers only held significance in a battle due to it's attached support fleet? A titan alone isn't one ship that can bean a superweapon at a structure or other cap, but it's real value is supporting the already defined structure of a specific fleet (wings/squads/etc). If fielding a fleet of caps is just pointless when their true application is revealed when attached to a smaller rigid structure.

These are extreme suggestions and admittedly not likely to be embraced considering the resources CCP would need to dedicate to basically reprogram 0.0, fleet structures and even overview function.

But at the same time, a full reexamination is exactly what is needed at this point. Small simple changes will either accomplish little as any fix requires multiple facets of game balance to consider; or they could outright break the game for the worse (like suggesting a ship completely not being able to tank an onslaught of dps despite logistical support dedicated to it)

The alternative is to continue with making the balls larger and larger (cap and subcap alike). Massive structure HPs and escalation et infinity.

Like I said, breaking up the blob is a loaded term and the concept never given just consideration. It requires inspired, focused game design and I'm just not sure if it's something CCP has either the ability nor incentive to execute. It needs more vision and less 'play it by ear'.

And that means not just fixing projection, or what sov is and means, and what caps can do and can't do and what their roles are, but all of it together and towards a defined endpoint.

And while they are showing bravery and vision in some of the recent game introductions; that's a far cry from making 0.0 into a new game. Even residency-based sov is something I doubt we'll see them put on the table.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1332 - 2014-08-17 21:09:16 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:


What!?!?! DID I JUST READ?!

All things being equal, larger entities will usually have the upper hand. Numbers are numbers no changing that.

We aren't going to make a world where smaller fleets beats larger ones by nerfing defense. I KNOW you know that.

All things equal, the smaller fleet will just get rolled over by the large one faster. Unless you're suggesting a world where subcaps can more easily kill caps? And that's not a small fleet vs large fleet discussion at all. That's a shift in game role tilting severely towards subcaps.

Nerfing the ability to keep a target up and alive is a nerf to defense. To guarantee an outcome past a certain offensive dps figure (blob size).

But nerfing the ability to defend only guarantees someone will lose in that matching instead of the only other possible outcome (stalemate). I'm afraid doing what you suggest might only help already skewed battles turn into steamrolls and holding off an onslaught literally impossible.

Yes, definitely bloodier battles. And no way to stop throwing waves of crap dps against significantly more valuable targets.



A few years ago small fleet we able to take on much larger fleets and while they lost the battle they often caused more damage. RR changes now means that today large fleets with a lot of logi often dont lose a single ship while the enemy loses everything. There is zero chance for a small fleet to do anything so they don't bother undocking. This also happens with subcaps vs capital blobs and capital vs capital fights.

If smaller alliances are to ever be a thing in null we need to nerf RR in fleets so that they can stand any chance of doing anything vs the likes of the CFC.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1333 - 2014-08-17 21:22:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


A few years ago small fleet we able to take on much larger fleets and while they lost the battle they often caused more damage. RR changes now means that today large fleets with a lot of logi often dont lose a single ship while the enemy loses everything. There is zero chance for a small fleet to do anything so they don't bother undocking. This also happens with subcaps vs capital blobs and capital vs capital fights.

If smaller alliances are to ever be a thing in null we need to nerf RR in fleets so that they can stand any chance of doing anything vs the likes of the CFC.



It doesn't have anything to do with smaller fleets vs larger fleets. It has to do with smaller ships overcoming significant defenses. I don't want to go all "grrrr goons" on you but you can't believe people wouldn't see what this would do.

If this was done, then the defensive rep ability of any one target will be X and all you need to do is field X to defeat it.

For anyone able to field X as cheaply as possible, winning would only be a matter of persistence. And neither skill nor scale would be able to amount a better defense than X.

The bigger blob still wins (as before), but removing any ability by the defensive party to hold against it.

You're making this sound like: click here for 'The Secret To Fixing Eve CCP Doesn't Want You To Know About'

What you're talking about is the ability to throw cheap waves of DPS against any defense and being guaranteed offensive progress. Blink

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Anthar Thebess
#1334 - 2014-08-17 21:33:25 UTC
First of all.
If you have 20 timers in CFC/NCPL space.
The same day 5 of them in the same hour but in 4 different regions - what will you do?

Send some force , prepare ships, try to minimize damage.
What we are saying is that if you are not using space there will be NO timers if 2-3 people live in a constellation, they smart bomb whole time ... you have 2-3 hour timer.
Can you react to this?

People are suggesting missions , as a system that could :
- generate enough income to feed alliance
- make a content for PVP

Make 1 agent site ( proper upgrade) for constellation.
You get missions 50% in this system, 30 % in constellation , 20% in any system your alliance owns.
Missions are offered only to people owning this system.
Agents relay on communication tower on this site - any one can destroy it, and after this new one have to be put in place, and the online timer for it is 20 minutes.

So if you not defend it , all people in constellation are blocked from missions for at least 20minutes.

Will those agents be pirate faction?
No.
They are reserved to NPC and COSMOS space.
Sov agents should be from some other faction, offering none or minimal LP.

Why?
Because LP is as worth as many people are doing missions, so :
- if we put higsec missions , people living in higsec will have their income reduced
- FW lp? Fw could be less dessired, and lowsec will get big nerf
- pirate lp? Rattlesnake, Balaghorn, Nightare, Machariel ~ 150mil each - any one?

Instead of damaging existing faction it is easy to create new faction(s).
Let them sell modifications to T1 Hulls of a given race - cruser/ BC hull.

Omen -> 'fleet' omen (+25% armor points, requires T1 hull , no other changes)
Tornado -> 'fleet' Tornado (+25% shield hp, etc)

Just suggestion, but for sure - new stuff from those LP stores, not present in any other LP store , well except ammo.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1335 - 2014-08-18 02:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
baltec1 wrote:


Remote Repair:

One of the biggest issues with fighting in nullsec is that smaller fleets cannot hurt large ones thanks to RR support. There is no point in attacking if you cant hurt your enemy so the only answer is to stand down. This problem only gets worse when you start dropping capitals which are now all but immortal vs subcaps. The answer here is to implement diminishing returns on RR so that past a point more reps add nothing.

This will result in much more bloody fights and smaller fleets can stand a chance to at the very least cause some damage.

Capitals, supers and titans:

A pain to everyone including the people that fly them.

Wreckingball/boot fleet needs to die. Carriers should at the very least lose the ability to drop sentries, probably even just be able to launch fighters. This combined with the RR nerf would end the near immortal deathballs.

Supers meanwhile need two things. First they should lose their Ewar immunity, then in return they and titans gain the ability to dock in stations. This solves the long standing problem of high skilled player leaving due to being stuck in these space coffins and getting bored with life.


i have come up with a few ideas for RR balance over the years

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3858512

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4228671

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3886910

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=192982

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133253

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=71505

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Madam Secretary
Space Mule
#1336 - 2014-08-18 02:22:45 UTC
One method for implementing a residency requirement might include regular attacks by Pirate NPC on Sov structures, they are after all pirates Pirate. They would do everything required to capture the system but would not take ownership of it after destroying all Sov structures.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#1337 - 2014-08-18 02:24:40 UTC
I came up with this idea that helps deal with force projection here is the sum of it

Quote:
SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE. As it stands you can hotdrop 40 Titians and 40 SC with a full subcap force with just one cyno.

My Proposal is to give mass limits on Cyno’s and Titan Jump Bridges to limit the ability to easily hot drop ship across the EVE Universe.

The idea is if you want to move more then 8 Titans or 10ish Super Carriers you will need to have more then one active Cyno.

A regular Cyno will now have a mass limit of around 20 billion kg.

Also if you want to Bridge your fleet you will need more then one Titan (Titan JB mass limit is independent from Cyno Mass limit)

Titan JB will now be a two way Worm Hole that has a mass limit of 10 billion kg which is ruff around 50ish battleships.

Hopefully if balanced correctly this will make it much harder to move mega fleets around and will allow for more flavor when doing fleet ops.

I am not sure if this should also include covert cynos this is up to debate.

Also an idea for cap ships is having an independent spool up time for Jump Drives that way you cant just use ET and cap rechargers to move cap fleets fast.

Also Now fow a titan to use its Bridge it needs to be sitting outside the pos shield.

TLDR:
Cyno now has a mass limit of 20 billion kg (just over 8 Titans or 10 super carriers)
Titan Jump Bridge now works as a two way Worm Hole that has a mass limit of 10 billion kg (about 50ish Battleships)
Jump Drives now have an independent spool up time to activate (time is 10 min with a new skill that can reduce to 5 min at lev V) Also if a titan wants to activate the Bridge it needs to be sitting outside the pos shield.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1338 - 2014-08-18 03:55:35 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


A few years ago small fleet we able to take on much larger fleets and while they lost the battle they often caused more damage. RR changes now means that today large fleets with a lot of logi often dont lose a single ship while the enemy loses everything. There is zero chance for a small fleet to do anything so they don't bother undocking. This also happens with subcaps vs capital blobs and capital vs capital fights.

If smaller alliances are to ever be a thing in null we need to nerf RR in fleets so that they can stand any chance of doing anything vs the likes of the CFC.



It doesn't have anything to do with smaller fleets vs larger fleets. It has to do with smaller ships overcoming significant defenses. I don't want to go all "grrrr goons" on you but you can't believe people wouldn't see what this would do.

If this was done, then the defensive rep ability of any one target will be X and all you need to do is field X to defeat it.

For anyone able to field X as cheaply as possible, winning would only be a matter of persistence. And neither skill nor scale would be able to amount a better defense than X.

The bigger blob still wins (as before), but removing any ability by the defensive party to hold against it.

You're making this sound like: click here for 'The Secret To Fixing Eve CCP Doesn't Want You To Know About'

What you're talking about is the ability to throw cheap waves of DPS against any defense and being guaranteed offensive progress. Blink


It has everything to do with smaller fleets. Fights today are entirely one sided with zero chance of winning if you dont bring a set amount of logi. We are forever being told the enemy has stood down and it is always because they lack critical mass for logi or lack the firepower to break ours. We do exactly the same.

You dont see mid size roaming gangs anymore or hear about small fleets winning against much bigger ones like we used to. RR has become too powerful and is limiting fights. If you want to fix null you must allow smaller alliances to be able to cause damage to the big boys, otherwise they will be slaughtered every time.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1339 - 2014-08-18 06:01:16 UTC
Problem with that Baltec is that the bigger alliance will always win. You (the small alliance) can only kamikazee the other guy (the big alliance) for so long. As soon as everyone has exhausted their assets (alliance/corp and individual) the bigger alliance that had more assets still wins. Logi or no, the bigger guy wins.

If you want to nerf Logi, then put an "explosion radius" effect on the shield/armor/cap transporter. Caps heal caps, T2 heal BS, T1 cruiser heal cruiser and Frigs heal frigs. Gives a fleet a reason to run squads/wings w/ the appropriate ships/sizes

Cedric
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1340 - 2014-08-18 06:34:08 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
Problem with that Baltec is that the bigger alliance will always win. You (the small alliance) can only kamikazee the other guy (the big alliance) for so long. As soon as everyone has exhausted their assets (alliance/corp and individual) the bigger alliance that had more assets still wins. Logi or no, the bigger guy wins.

If you want to nerf Logi, then put an "explosion radius" effect on the shield/armor/cap transporter. Caps heal caps, T2 heal BS, T1 cruiser heal cruiser and Frigs heal frigs. Gives a fleet a reason to run squads/wings w/ the appropriate ships/sizes



Bigger alliances always win right now. If you want smaller powers in nullsec you have to nerf RR otherwise we will continue to have one sided slaughters. Having diminishing returns on logi means they continue to be effective in smaller fleet roams but in big fleet engagements they dont make one side unkillable.