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Balancing Feedback: New Tech2 modules

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Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#241 - 2011-12-09 11:11:23 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey in there, you are not forgotten, just a bit busy with multiple stuff coming in.

Here are the iteration changes planned for tech2 mods:
[list]

  • Sister core probe launcher and expanded probe launcher: now provide a 10% boost to scan probe strength instead of 5%. That's to keep an appeal for the faction mods despite the arrival of a tech2 version.

  • Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link: tracking and speed multipliers for drones increased from 1.25x to 1.3x, again to keep an interest on the faction variant next to the new tech2 module.

    • Feedback is welcome.


    Why not just further improve the fitting requirements for the faction modules - IIRC they're already slightly lower than the T2 versions?
    Nomad I
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #242 - 2011-12-09 11:13:05 UTC
    Svennig wrote:

    This is an argument to boost the other carriers, not to nerf the archon. The archon is the only carrier that, currently, comes close to fulfilling its role.



    /this
    Alex Harumichi
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #243 - 2011-12-09 11:32:34 UTC
    It seem that there is general consensus on a few peripheral issues surrounding the proposed t2 boost.


    1. the Archon is currently significantly better than the other 3 carriers
    2. Information Warfare gang links are currently significantly less powerful and useful than the other 3 types, as a group


    Without taking sides in the "should these be fixed with boosts or nerfs?" issue, I think both are issues that should go on the devs' "TODO" list.
    Gypsio III
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #244 - 2011-12-09 13:21:59 UTC
    Alex Harumichi wrote:
    It seem that there is general consensus on a few peripheral issues surrounding the proposed t2 boost.


    1. the Archon is currently significantly better than the other 3 carriers
    2. Information Warfare gang links are currently significantly less powerful and useful than the other 3 types, as a group


    Without taking sides in the "should these be fixed with boosts or nerfs?" issue, I think both are issues that should go on the devs' "TODO" list.


    Indeed. Personally, I would also add looking at the imbalance of carrier tanking styles to this. Three armour carriers and one shield carrier is not sensible, and is at odds from the two-two split of shield and armour on Dreads, supercarriers and Titans. A simple solution would be to switch two Nidhoggur lowslots to medslots, and rebalance fittings accordingly.
    Nomad I
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #245 - 2011-12-09 13:42:01 UTC
    A speech against fitting communism

    The archon is significantly better ... but not when it comes to damage. The Archon has it's role for triage because of PG and cap. That's it.

    I don't want equally abilities for all ships, because thats boring. The excitement of EVE is that you have to take what the strategy and situation is demanding. It's about to act wise. So don't demand classes of ships that have the some abilities. We take BS's with smartbombs against frig gangs. We take Abaddons + Archon against mixed setups and Drakes for Roams. Even Gallente ships like the Lachsis have a place in our fleets.

    So don't demand boredom, be creative and use what you are able to find. It should be a demand from player side to create more roles for existing ships instead of making them equal.
    Alex Harumichi
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #246 - 2011-12-09 13:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
    Nomad I wrote:

    The archon is significantly better ... but not when it comes to damage. The Archon has it's role for triage because of PG and cap. That's it.


    Well, and tank. Archon tank is vastly better than the others, and it's no only about the PG and cap. Hint: look at ship bonuses.

    But more relevantly: that's like comparing logistics cruisers based on the dps they do. The damage of a carrier isn't an issue. They are not dps platforms. Anyone using them as such is a fool, to be blunt. They are huge logistics ships; any dps they do is strictly a side issue.

    ...and as you note, the Archon is miles ahead of the other three on all the counts that actually matter. The Thanatos does a small bit more damage? Who cares? And more to the point: what's the point of the Caldari and Minmatar carriers?

    Calling a request for power-level balance between the racial ships (or gang links) is not "communism", ffs. Or are the recent hybrid weapon boosts Communist, too? :D
    Alex Harumichi
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #247 - 2011-12-09 13:56:11 UTC
    Nomad I wrote:
    We take BS's with smartbombs against frig gangs. We take Abaddons + Archon against mixed setups and Drakes for Roams. Even Gallente ships like the Lachsis have a place in our fleets.


    (golf clap)

    Hooray for you. Tell me then: when do you guys fly Chimeras, Thanatoses or Nidhoggurs? You do fly them, right, since by your argument they are just fine and just need some creative thinking? So tell us: when and how do you use them.

    Or, you know, concede the fact that the Archon is simply better on all levels, and you want to obfuscate that for some reason. Maybe related to fears of Communism, Marxism or Trotskyism :D
    Alex Harumichi
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #248 - 2011-12-09 14:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
    Note that I fly a triage Archon myself. I have Amarr Carrier V. I'm quite aware of how ridiculously good it is. And yes, a nerf would hurt me too.

    Doesn't stop me from requesting some changes, since the situation is borked at the moment. Everyone knows it is.

    I would more prefer a change that boosted the other carriers as opposed to an Archon nerf, of course.
    Nomad I
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #249 - 2011-12-09 14:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomad I
    Alex Harumichi wrote:
    Nomad I wrote:
    We take BS's with smartbombs against frig gangs. We take Abaddons + Archon against mixed setups and Drakes for Roams. Even Gallente ships like the Lachsis have a place in our fleets.


    (golf clap)

    Hooray for you. Tell me then: when do you guys fly Chimeras, Thanatoses or Nidhoggurs? You do fly them, right, since by your argument they are just fine and just need some creative thinking? So tell us: when and how do you use them.

    Or, you know, concede the fact that the Archon is simply better on all levels, and you want to obfuscate that for some reason. Maybe related to fears of Communism, Marxism or Trotskyism :D




    Don't make them equal, give them a role. That's a different way to make a better EVE. I didn't mentoned that EVE is perfect, but my demand is, if you want a better game, give more ships a role.
    Cassius Longinus
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #250 - 2011-12-09 14:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Longinus
    Gypsio III wrote:
    Seriously.This reeks of ill-thought-out power creep.


    The people calling for localtank buff in response to dread buff is the same thing: it's just mudflation, not balance.

    Frankly, the skirmish links are fine now. Triage is fine now (*). Siege is finally fine now.

    If you need to buff something, fix Info links. Or address the relative imablance of scanres/align speed across hull classes. Or re-look at rig calibration costs which just seem random. Or think about whether we REALLY want 3x trimark/CDFE to be the default rig fit for most combat ships.

    (Also, note the correctness of people complaining about the Archon's relative OPness, and the Chimera's inherent fitting problems)

    (*) Actually I find it rediculously OP in smallgang situations, but w/e.
    Jack Dant
    The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
    #251 - 2011-12-09 14:17:22 UTC
    Alex Harumichi wrote:
    Hooray for you. Tell me then: when do you guys fly Chimeras, Thanatoses or Nidhoggurs? You do fly them, right, since by your argument they are just fine and just need some creative thinking? So tell us: when and how do you use them.

    You see thannies all the time. They may not be the best carrier for any situation except hotdrop ganks, but they are very versatile. Not bad as armor triage and can shield rep towers.

    The Nidhoggur has been boosted in crucible. I think it's too early to tell if it will be used more. But with the extra rep bonus, two nid armor RR do 90% of the rep of 3 archon reps. And you can keep the nid running for longer than the archon.

    The chimera is in dire need of help. But I'm not sure how carriers fit in shield gangs anyway.

    What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
    Alex Harumichi
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #252 - 2011-12-09 14:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
    Nomad I wrote:

    Don't make them equal, give them a role. That's a different way to make a better EVE. I didn't mentoned that EVE is perfect, but my demand is, if you want a better game, give more ships a role.


    Sure... but the problem is, the other carriers don't have a role in the sense that they could be considered the equal of the Archon in power level, even situationally -- and that balance we do need in the game.

    Thanatos: the "role" is that it does a bit more damage than the Archon. As noted, dps is mostly irrelevant for carriers, and in all other respects (the important ones) it loses badly to the Archon. Tell me: if both a Thanatos and Archon are available to an FC, when would he choose a Thanatos over an Archon? What's the role, in actual game reality?

    Nidhoggur: as armor triage platform, when would you use it over an Archon?

    Chimera and Nidhoggur: what's the role here? As shield-based triage platforms, both are much, much worse than the Archon on all numerical terms. Why should shield triage be fundamentally worse than armor triage? No reason... except that Archon does triage much better than these two, making it worse as a side effect. What is the role for these ships?

    There's also a side effect: since the shield-based carriers are so weak in comparison, all FCs who do carrier-supported fleets build them around armor, if they have any choice in the matter. That's not because shield triage is worse, in theory. It's because the available triage ships are so weak. Improve them to Archon level, and a triage-supported shield-bs fleet suddenly becomes competitive. That's adding variety to the game (which you seem to be all for).

    That's the problem in a nutshell: currently, the other carriers don't have a role (when Archons are available).

    Being "something to fly if an Archon is not available" is not a role.
    Alex Harumichi
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #253 - 2011-12-09 14:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
    Jack Dant wrote:

    You see thannies all the time. They may not be the best carrier for any situation except hotdrop ganks, but they are very versatile. Not bad as armor triage and can shield rep towers.


    Yeah, I'll give you that: they can rep POS shields, which is something the Archon can't do. Not sure if that's worth the raw logi power diff, though.

    Maybe it's a "jack of all trades, master of none" problem, there. I still think the Archon is too good in comparison.

    Quote:

    The Nidhoggur has been boosted in crucible. I think it's too early to tell if it will be used more. But with the extra rep bonus, two nid armor RR do 90% of the rep of 3 archon reps. And you can keep the nid running for longer than the archon.


    I don't fly it myself, but I've been told that even after the boosts, it loses significantly in comparison with the Archon. I haven't cruched the numbers myself, so can't comment on specifics here.

    I'm hoping that it's at least somewhat competitive now, but... dunno. Maybe someone can provide more info on this?

    Quote:

    The chimera is in dire need of help. But I'm not sure how carriers fit in shield gangs anyway.


    Well, we fly shield-based bs gangs (among lots of other things), and those can often find good use for a hotdropped triage carrier. To date, that hasn't been used much because the shield-rep capable carriers have been... well, a bit sad.

    In theory, the Chimera should be the shield-tank equivalent to the Archon, a monster logistics platform. We all know it isn't... but in game balance terms, it should be.
    Jack Dant
    The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
    #254 - 2011-12-09 14:45:55 UTC
    Alex Harumichi wrote:
    Quote:

    The Nidhoggur has been boosted in crucible. I think it's too early to tell if it will be used more. But with the extra rep bonus, two nid armor RR do 90% of the rep of 3 archon reps. And you can keep the nid running for longer than the archon.


    I don't fly it myself, but I've been told that even after the boosts, it loses significantly in comparison with the Archon. I haven't cruched the numbers myself, so can't comment on specifics here.

    I'm hoping that it's at least somewhat competitive now, but... dunno. Maybe someone can provide more info on this?

    Keep in mind, people generally take a while to find the optimal setups. Besides, to fully shine with the RR bonus, it needs minmatar carrier V, and I don't think there are as many people with that as amarr carrier V.

    Quote:
    Quote:

    The chimera is in dire need of help. But I'm not sure how carriers fit in shield gangs anyway.


    Well, we fly shield-based bs gangs (among lots of other things), and those can often find good use for a hotdropped triage carrier. To date, that hasn't been used much because the shield-rep capable carriers have been... well, a bit sad.

    Shield gangs, including your alpha maelstroms, usually work best at mid-range. So they vulnerable to being chased away from rep range from the carrier.

    What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
    Alex Harumichi
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #255 - 2011-12-09 14:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
    Jack Dant wrote:
    ple generally take a while to find the optimal setups. Besides, to fully shine with the RR bonus, it needs minmatar carrier V, and I don't think there are as many people with that as amarr carrier V.


    Sure :).

    I guess we just need to wait and see on that one.

    Quote:
    Quote:

    Well, we fly shield-based bs gangs (among lots of other things), and those can often find good use for a hotdropped triage carrier. To date, that hasn't been used much because the shield-rep capable carriers have been... well, a bit sad.


    Shield gangs, including your alpha maelstroms, usually work best at mid-range. So they vulnerable to being chased away from rep range from the carrier.


    Well, yes, but the same applies to short-range gang in reverse: the opponents can take range on them, forcing them to either go out of range of their own triage, or lose ability to fight back. There's no reason why a med-range shield gang would absolutely need to keep range, especially with shield triage available. The tracking's good enough, in general, to do decent damage even if the enemy closes. Versus biggers ships, anyway.

    I don't see that as a problem for shield triage, in general. And of course, if the Chimera was on the same power level as the Archon, you could do close-range triage-supported shield fleets and other exotic stuff ;)

    A shield battleship is still a battleship, it won't zoom around the field. I don't see shield triage as all that problematic in theory, if we just had better carrier options for it.

    (the above example of taking range on a short-range triage-supported armor fleet and forcing it out of triage range is totally theoretical, of course, and is in no way related to a recent huge battle in Heimatar lowsec... :D)
    Labourer
    The Damned Legion
    #256 - 2011-12-09 15:17:19 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey in there, you are not forgotten, just a bit busy with multiple stuff coming in.

    Here are the iteration changes planned for tech2 mods:

    • Triage module II: now provides a 20% capacitor reduction to remote capital armor repairers, remote capital hull repairers, capital shield transfers and capital energy transfers while in triage mode. Doesn't provide any bonus to local repairer/boosters however. Previously the module had little interest to train for, should now be worth the time.

    • Mining Foreman Link – Mining Laser Field Enhancement II: boost increased from 5 to 5.625%: same reason as above, to keep tech2 boost consistent among all gang links.


    Feedback is welcome.


    Regarding the Triage Module, I agree with what most people have set regarding the changes to help the local tank of a triage carrier.

    Regarding the Mining link, could Hulks's max lock range be increased then. Already with a max skilled Rorqual, on the standard T1 links, Hulks cannot lock at the range of the lasers. Adding a sensor booster just to be able to lock roids is going to seriously affect tanking.

    Lab.
    Garnoo
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #257 - 2011-12-09 16:14:21 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey in there, you are not forgotten, just a bit busy with multiple stuff coming in.

  • Bomb Launcher II: capacity increased from 150 to 225m3, allows it to carry 3 bombs instead of 2.
    • [/list]

    Feedback is welcome.

    no worth... make bomb launchers II with 5-15% bonus to bomb damage

    People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back -  EvE
    Dramaticus
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #258 - 2011-12-09 20:37:29 UTC
    Just exactly what and for how long is a carrier supposed to tank

    The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

    The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
    Gypsio III
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #259 - 2011-12-09 20:48:13 UTC
    Alex Harumichi wrote:


    Thanatos: the "role" is that it does a bit more damage than the Archon. As noted, dps is mostly irrelevant for carriers, and in all other respects (the important ones) it loses badly to the Archon. Tell me: if both a Thanatos and Archon are available to an FC, when would he choose a Thanatos over an Archon? What's the role, in actual game reality?


    In theory, the Thanatos's damage bonus means that it would be best employed in small fights where the extra DPS is most useful. In reality, in those small-scale fights, the RR ability of triage Archon is arguably more valuable even there...
    Svennig
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #260 - 2011-12-09 21:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Svennig
    Goddamn there are some ****** up ideas about carriers here.

    GENERAL ARMOR SUPREMACY

    Why are armor carriers so much more popular? Two reasons. Gang homogeneity, and shield reps suck.

    In a capital and supercapital gang, the carriers are fodder. When **** hits the fan, you rep the supers. So you have to rep what the supers need, and that's armor. Avatars and erebuses (the most popular titans) and nyxes and aeons (the most popular supercarriers) all armor tank. Shield tanking supers are a joke, so no one trains for them, so there's no need to support them, so there's no support, so no-one trains for them. It's a vicious cycle. And even if that were changed overnight, the volume of existing supercaps in the game isn't going away. It will take years for shield capitals and supercapitals to become popular, if it's even possible.

    The capital battle is much like the subcap. No-one wants to run mixed gangs. Now, considering that armor reps are overwhelmingly demanded by the people that matter (supers), you are going to fit your carriers (and chose what to train for) around that. The archon armor tanks. The thanatos armor tanks. The Nidhoggur armor tanks. The chimera shield tanks. The chimera could be the best carrier in the game, and it would still suck and be the least popular carrier because there's no-one to rep.

    The second part is that shield reps suck. You might think I mean they're a little bit more tricky. No, they SUCK. Their fitting restrictions are insane, their CPU usage is way way way too ******* high. And this affects all the "multi-doctrine" carriers (the thanatos, the nid) but the nid and the chimera are most affected.

    To those of you advocating that the nidhoggur switches to a shield tank: can I have some of what you're smoking? What do you think this is going to achieve? Apart from the abandonment of the nidhoggur, is that what you want?

    TRIAGE:

    The archon is the best triage carrier because it has the a 5% per level resist bonus (which makes local rep more effective), it has enough powergrid to make fitting not a massive headache, and it's got enough cap that it can run the local and remote reps well (as you can't recieve remote in triage).

    The shield counterpart to this armor behemoth should be the chimera. It's got the same 5% bonus to resist, and it's got bonuses to shield transfers. The trouble is, it doesn't have anything like enough CPU to do this well. Whereas the archon can easily fit 4 remote reps, triage, and two local reps, a similar setup on a chimera is already at 135% CPU without any other modules fitted.

    So no, on triage they are not equal.

    General Archon supremacy

    Archons can rep armor, which means they can act as support for avatars and erebuses (the most popular titans) and nyxes and aeons (the most popular supercarriers). Because they can transfer cap, they can also help cap up supers after a jump in. This, coupled with their heavy tank, makes them excellent capital support.

    The thanatos has a bonus to armor rep, but loses out on the cap transfer and tank bonus But they're still a very popular carrier (due to people using the fighters for ratting, or looking to utilise the larger drone bay, or progressing onto a Nyx). So, while they're not objectively as good, they're still popular.

    The nidhoggur, with its rep bonus, should be more popular than it is. The main downside is that it's the least tanky of the armor carriers. It's recent boost to cap and rep/level bonus are most welcome, but the bonus to powergrid was just bizarre and unnecessary. It didn't have much of a problem with powergrid. It's CPU, however, like all shield repping caps, is ******* BATSHIT ******** because the CPU requirements of the shield reps are ******* BATSHIT ********.

    Then there's the chimera. Has to shield tank. Fitting issues abound. Just lol.