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muninn speed buff = passable stabber FI clone?
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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1 - 2014-08-15 23:22:08 UTC
Just curious on what you guys think if we treated the muninn like a stabber FI. With the speed buff, its only like 20m/s slower. Still has tracking bonus, and a better tank/fitting/dps. I hate using a/c's since its really a artillery platform, but that isn't going to happen until they do something with PG or give it another mid. This would be used solo, and probably in FW plexes. No DCU, since its kind of pointless, t2 matar needs kinetic/explo hardeners only, and the structure HP is so low anyway, DCU probably won't save you.

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5


DPS: 556/625 OH
tank (until aar runs out): 483/618OH w/ exile is 580/741 --- 92/75/59/68
Speed: 700-900ish OH (estimated)
Cap: 66% stable with boosters

Just trying to find a use for this thing, hate only having 1 HAC to fly that actually works decently. This doesn't look too bad.. wish it had a web, but kinda need the cap booster to run 2 reps.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Nestene Corsten
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-08-16 01:36:04 UTC
I wouldn't use the Muninn outside of PVE; that's just asking for trouble. It needs more loving than a minor speed buff to be viable. As you've rightly pointed out it's a artillery boat.
Kyoko Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-16 04:18:33 UTC
This is somewhat off topic but it's something that became glaringly apparant to me while messing with various fittings for a Muninn (arties and ac's).

I dropped a rack of 425's on then a rack of 220's to go with a bigger buffer. The difference between sizes, when comparing with hail was less than 1km (opt + falloff) and 22 total dps (or 4 dps per gun). The fitting difference isn't much (just slightly under 150pg for the rack).

Went back to my Vaga fittings and I basically produce the exact same numbers regardless of AC size (the 425's with a neut requires a true sansha pds which basically replaces a gyro, TE, or nano); tweaked slightly in any direction (slightly more speed, tank, or dps).

Perhaps my phone app is off in figuring out dps, but it seems though there should be a bigger benifit in jumping up weapon sizes over 5 guns as it seems barely comparable to going to rf gyros from T2 (yes price obviously). Although yes the extra fitting (less than 150pg per rack) isn't much.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#4 - 2014-08-16 14:44:14 UTC
The problem with Munin / Most minny ships in general, is really not a speed thing. Its the fact that AC's / ARTY are really sub par weapon systems. It is that factor that is holding them back the most IMO
Voi Lutois
Vonkell
#5 - 2014-08-18 05:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Voi Lutois
I would go with a arty shield kite fit.

[Muninn, Expensive Rupture]

Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
3x Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II

5x 720mm Howitzer Artillery II
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Warrior II x5

With loki links and snakes it is decent.
2630 m/s without heat
31k ehp, 6k shields (a little squishy so be careful)
445 dps without drones
keep 20-50km and shoot stuff

Probably won't do well solo but with a hyena/rapier to web **** down and a rlm scyfi or caracal/cerb to melt scram frigs that might catch ya you'll have a dirty little gang to roam with. If you have more than two friends you can bring a couple more dps and a inty or two and maybe even a scythe to rep you fools.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#6 - 2014-08-18 10:27:41 UTC
The biggest issue with the Muninn is that it doesn't do anything that the Hurroicane doesn't do already. The optimal range bonus is absolutely minimal given how low the opti on projectiles is.

Want to see Munnin fleets?

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty (Generic HAC bonus unneeded kthnx - something useful instead plx)
Voi Lutois
Vonkell
#7 - 2014-08-18 12:44:51 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
The biggest issue with the Muninn is that it doesn't do anything that the Hurroicane doesn't do already. The optimal range bonus is absolutely minimal given how low the opti on projectiles is.

Want to see Munnin fleets?

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty (Generic HAC bonus unneeded kthnx - something useful instead plx)




you is speak nonsense
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#8 - 2014-08-18 17:59:59 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
The biggest issue with the Muninn is that it doesn't do anything that the Hurroicane doesn't do already. The optimal range bonus is absolutely minimal given how low the opti on projectiles is.

Want to see Munnin fleets?

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty (Generic HAC bonus unneeded kthnx - something useful instead plx)




Optimal bonus on arty is decent. On ac's is worthless. Jag makes good use of optimal bonus. But the jag has speed, unlike the muninn. Main thing is ive seen stabber FI brawl without web. Wondering if muninn could get away with it with speed increase. The main issue i see is it could get kited easily.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-08-18 22:23:40 UTC
The real problem with trying to fit an armor Muninn for brawling is that a Rupture does most of what it can do for dirt cheap and a Hurricane does just about all of what it can do, and then some, for dirt cheap (relative to the Muninn).
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#10 - 2014-08-18 23:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Jon Joringer wrote:
The real problem with trying to fit an armor Muninn for brawling is that a Rupture does most of what it can do for dirt cheap and a Hurricane does just about all of what it can do, and then some, for dirt cheap (relative to the Muninn).


Eh, rupture doesn't get tracking bonus, which isn't a huge deal i suppose. Rupture's dps/tank is pretty bad when setup in the same way as the muninn. about 350dps and a 300-400dps tank.

Hurricane is very meh right now. It seems to be subpar in just about everything it does. Going with a 5 slot tank + rigs, and i'm still only getting a 650dps tank with exile and OH. Unlike the muninn which is in the 800-900's with tank OH. Hurricane is slow, and actually gets about the same dps as the muninn with it setup that way. 550 for muninn vs 535 for hurricane with 220's.

Plus muninn's sig is 125m, the hurricane is like 250ish

If the muninn would get another mid, it would be a decent brawler, or could actually fit a web for defense on arty fits. I may test it out when i have an excess of isk. But will probably wait until they decide to tweak HACs again, since most likely ishtars are going to be nerfed again. Maybe then, they'll give the muninn/eagle a respectable buff.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-08-19 03:22:44 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Jon Joringer wrote:
The real problem with trying to fit an armor Muninn for brawling is that a Rupture does most of what it can do for dirt cheap and a Hurricane does just about all of what it can do, and then some, for dirt cheap (relative to the Muninn).


Eh, rupture doesn't get tracking bonus, which isn't a huge deal i suppose. Rupture's dps/tank is pretty bad when setup in the same way as the muninn. about 350dps and a 300-400dps tank.

Hurricane is very meh right now. It seems to be subpar in just about everything it does. Going with a 5 slot tank + rigs, and i'm still only getting a 650dps tank with exile and OH. Unlike the muninn which is in the 800-900's with tank OH. Hurricane is slow, and actually gets about the same dps as the muninn with it setup that way. 550 for muninn vs 535 for hurricane with 220's.

Plus muninn's sig is 125m, the hurricane is like 250ish

If the muninn would get another mid, it would be a decent brawler, or could actually fit a web for defense on arty fits. I may test it out when i have an excess of isk. But will probably wait until they decide to tweak HACs again, since most likely ishtars are going to be nerfed again. Maybe then, they'll give the muninn/eagle a respectable buff.

Note, I said Rupture/Hurricane can do 'most' of what a Muninn can do. And, I will give you that I was thinking about armor buffer fits, not the active tank fit you proposed (it's resist bonuses will certainly put it above in that regard). But in my opinion, it just comes back to the Rupture/SFI/Hurricane covering a brawling Muninn's area pretty well already for a fraction of the cost. Not that that should stop you from flying it if you want, I just don't see too much benefit for the hull's price.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-08-19 10:39:10 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Just curious on what you guys think if we treated the muninn like a stabber FI. With the speed buff, its only like 20m/s slower. Still has tracking bonus, and a better tank/fitting/dps. I hate using a/c's since its really a artillery platform, but that isn't going to happen until they do something with PG or give it another mid. This would be used solo, and probably in FW plexes. No DCU, since its kind of pointless, t2 matar needs kinetic/explo hardeners only, and the structure HP is so low anyway, DCU probably won't save you.

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5


DPS: 556/625 OH
tank (until aar runs out): 483/618OH w/ exile is 580/741 --- 92/75/59/68
Speed: 700-900ish OH (estimated)
Cap: 66% stable with boosters

Just trying to find a use for this thing, hate only having 1 HAC to fly that actually works decently. This doesn't look too bad.. wish it had a web, but kinda need the cap booster to run 2 reps.


It amazes me how many do not know that DCU give SHIELD and armor resistances that are NOT stack nerfed....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-08-19 10:40:59 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
The biggest issue with the Muninn is that it doesn't do anything that the Hurroicane doesn't do already. The optimal range bonus is absolutely minimal given how low the opti on projectiles is.

Want to see Munnin fleets?

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty (Generic HAC bonus unneeded kthnx - something useful instead plx)




Optimal bonus on arty is decent. On ac's is worthless. Jag makes good use of optimal bonus. But the jag has speed, unlike the muninn. Main thing is ive seen stabber FI brawl without web. Wondering if muninn could get away with it with speed increase. The main issue i see is it could get kited easily.



Sttaber FI is a SLOW cruiser. Since the tiercide its heavier than its coutnerparts and have a horrible damage projeciton. Normal sttaber is better than FI.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#14 - 2014-08-19 12:29:31 UTC
Kyoko Onzo wrote:
This is somewhat off topic but it's something that became glaringly apparant to me while messing with various fittings for a Muninn (arties and ac's).

I dropped a rack of 425's on then a rack of 220's to go with a bigger buffer. The difference between sizes, when comparing with hail was less than 1km (opt + falloff) and 22 total dps (or 4 dps per gun). The fitting difference isn't much (just slightly under 150pg for the rack).


If you factor in reloading in particular, the variation in output from ACs (with arties there's a little more range variation) that it's often worth dropping a tier. It's the Tempest dicotomy of old - the real damage output was actually higher with 650s than with 800s (improved tracking, drastically increased clip size) while also being easier to fit.

With both Gallente and Minmatar ships I tend to start out with mid tier guns (Ion Blasters, 650 Artie, Dual 650 ACs) and scale up later rather than starting with top tier and struggling - the exception being 1400s of course.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#15 - 2014-08-19 12:38:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Just curious on what you guys think if we treated the muninn like a stabber FI. With the speed buff, its only like 20m/s slower. Still has tracking bonus, and a better tank/fitting/dps. I hate using a/c's since its really a artillery platform, but that isn't going to happen until they do something with PG or give it another mid. This would be used solo, and probably in FW plexes. No DCU, since its kind of pointless, t2 matar needs kinetic/explo hardeners only, and the structure HP is so low anyway, DCU probably won't save you.

Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5


DPS: 556/625 OH
tank (until aar runs out): 483/618OH w/ exile is 580/741 --- 92/75/59/68
Speed: 700-900ish OH (estimated)
Cap: 66% stable with boosters

Just trying to find a use for this thing, hate only having 1 HAC to fly that actually works decently. This doesn't look too bad.. wish it had a web, but kinda need the cap booster to run 2 reps.


It amazes me how many do not know that DCU give SHIELD and armor resistances that are NOT stack nerfed....


it amazes me how many people can't read and understand that minmatar armor t2's only need 2 resist mods to cover the kinetic and explo holes. Muninn has 1750 hull points, a DCU is not going to help much for structure bleed.

i couldn't care less about shield resistance on an armor tank... and really, a DCU is only giving me a few % in the 2 resists i need, where as the EANM is giving me quite a bit more than a DCU. However, after some fiddling you could also roll like this:

[Muninn, Brawler]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Projectile Burst Aerator II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5

DPS goes down like 542/609 OH
tank goes up to around 850-900 OH with the lowest resist being 65% before OH

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#16 - 2014-08-19 12:41:39 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
The biggest issue with the Muninn is that it doesn't do anything that the Hurroicane doesn't do already. The optimal range bonus is absolutely minimal given how low the opti on projectiles is.

Want to see Munnin fleets?

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty (Generic HAC bonus unneeded kthnx - something useful instead plx)




Optimal bonus on arty is decent. On ac's is worthless. Jag makes good use of optimal bonus. But the jag has speed, unlike the muninn. Main thing is ive seen stabber FI brawl without web. Wondering if muninn could get away with it with speed increase. The main issue i see is it could get kited easily.



Sttaber FI is a SLOW cruiser. Since the tiercide its heavier than its coutnerparts and have a horrible damage projeciton. Normal sttaber is better than FI.


Stabber FI is one of the few okish minmatar brawling cruisers. Dual prop it to get in range, scram/ab to speed tank. Pretty standard fit tbh. It doesn't need projection, it relies on tracking bonus and being semi-fast to get tackle and then get under the guns. It also has a relatively low sig as well.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#17 - 2014-08-19 14:01:47 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


it amazes me how many people can't read and understand that minmatar armor t2's only need 2 resist mods to cover the kinetic and explo holes.



Umm... every other T2 armor tanker in the game only has 1 resist hole. This has always been the complaint - Minmatar Armor tankers struggle these days. The 2 resist holes would be so bad if the fitting was more generous, but RCU's are mandatory on any Artillery boat that wasn't to have at least SOME tank. Looka t the artillery Tempest - it's EHP is pathetic.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#18 - 2014-08-19 14:10:50 UTC
Every TII armour tanker has 2 resist holes actually, one major and one minor.

On Minmatar its Explo > Kin
Gallente is Explo > EM
Amarr is Thermal > EM
Caldari is Explo > EM

Its just Minmatar ones are more pronounce for some reason.

Also that Munnin fit is shocking.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#19 - 2014-08-19 15:02:00 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Every TII armour tanker has 2 resist holes actually, one major and one minor.

On Minmatar its Explo > Kin
Gallente is Explo > EM
Amarr is Thermal > EM
Caldari is Explo > EM

Its just Minmatar ones are more pronounce for some reason.

Also that Munnin fit is shocking.


Shockingly bad? Lol. Muninn desprately needs another mid. If i had a web id feel alil better. I hate only having an a/b, but its the way itll work. With mwd i lose range control if i too am scrammed.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#20 - 2014-08-19 15:03:08 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Every TII armour tanker has 2 resist holes actually, one major and one minor.

On Minmatar its Explo > Kin
Gallente is Explo > EM
Amarr is Thermal > EM
Caldari is Explo > EM

Its just Minmatar ones are more pronounce for some reason.

Also that Munnin fit is shocking.


define 'hole' ? 50% or greater is not a hole.

I'll look at the HAC's default resists:

Zealot (Shield): 0/87.5/70/20 - 3 mids, 2 holes
Zealot (Armor): 50/80/62.5/35 - 7 lows, 1 hole

Deimos (Armor): 0/50/85/60 - 4 mids, 1 hole
Deimos (Armor): 50/10/83.8/67.5 - 6 lows, 1 hole

Cerberus (Shield): 0/50/70/80 - 5 mids, 1 hole
Ceberus (Armor): 50/10/62.5/86.3 - 4 lows, 1 hole

Munnin (Shield): 75/50/40/60 - 3 mids, 1 hole (barely 1 - GOOD resists)
Muninn (Armor): 90/10/25/67.5 - 6 lows, 2 holes

2 conclusion that could be drawn (right or wrong is a matter of opinion): The Cerberus needs another mid slot and the Munnin has the WORST slot layout for a T2 ship.

T2 ships on the new tiericide 'ship tree' are marketed as being extremely specialised ships - yet the Munnin still has that unbonused hi-slot. The vaga has the same thing, but it also has a better slot layout for what it's role is. Since when does a sniper boat need a utility high?

They could go super crazy and turn the Muninn into a 'Super-Wolf' - 5/2/8 slot layout... totally not going to happen but fun to imagine the possibilities :)
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