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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

First post
Author
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#941 - 2011-12-09 09:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorn Galen
I found your short essay quite an interesting read, thank you. Well written and intelligent. I would however not agree with some of the discourse you put forth. My apologies for the imminent wall of text.

Yes, Eve is virtual, all pixels and nothing physical to hold and feel. It is however very emotional and emotion still needs to be defined by the world’s greatest thinkers, past and present. Emotion exists, we all know that, it is tangible in that we either feel happy or sad, angry or clam and all the shades in-between.

Having said that, Eve is a game. It is entertainment. Your art, although you could label it as entertainment, is self-immersive. It is real to you and only you. Others can only speculate at it and appreciate it, they cannot feel it as you do. It is very personal or you probably would not be an artist.

Eve is real - as entertainment goes, yes. I want the red ball, you want the blue ball, the bully wants both of our balls. That's the way the bully is entertained, by taking what is yours and delighting in the fact that you are upset. It is a mind-set you will not be able to change. That is not to say that such a person is a bully in real life. Often times, quite the opposite is true. The person may likely be a mild-mannered, well-liked individual who finds in Eve the ability to express emotions (anger, rage, spite) - which he or she would not otherwise feel comfortable doing in real life.

You should not converge the virtual with the real - especially not in the case of Eve and most any other MMO. Sure, it's an Utopian concept to think that in the virtual world, that which you deem of value you do not want others to take from you, in whatever form. Alas though, Eve is not Utopia. Even in the real world we absolutely need chaos otherwise peace and calm, left alone, will be a very tedious and boring existence. Even if we were to elevate our conscious thoughts to a higher plain of holistic thinking, we would ultimately find that evolution can only come about by revolution.

It is what we are as humans. We aspire, we build and create. Others will look in anguish at your creations and feel bitter envy and a need to destroy and remove. This is part of the human condition. What does this do to us as a race of sapient beings ? It makes us aspire to more, more greatness, more holistic thinking, more destruction.

Your ownership of a virtual good in a space to which I have access to is as likely to be destroyed as your ownership of an item in your space in real life. The persistence you speak of is thus not infinite, nor should it be taken for granted. Real life wars destroy objects and people. Criminal’s ****, abduct, kill and destroy in real life.

We mirror all of this in the games we play and Eve is no exception. Nothing can be infinitely persistent. There comes a time, eventually, when the law of entropy rears its head and says "enough" and destroys, not by leaps and bounds in the grand scheme of things, but slowly, over time.

In Eve, this entropy is more immediate, felt with greater closeness. It affects us directly as individuals. For the most part, most of us manage to get through life without being raped, accosted, robbed or killed. We know such heinous products of the human mind exist. We read about them every day. We do not expect something bad to happen to us personally. In Eve however, you are guaranteed that someone out there is hunting you down, wants to destroy your possessions.

I understand where you're coming from, I see your point of view, but understand that yours cannot be the only valid point of view. Neither can mine.

It is all a part of the human condition and afterall is said and done, Eve remains a game.

Peace, out.

o/
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#942 - 2011-12-09 09:03:56 UTC
The word r. a. p. e. is censored.

Really CCP ?

There are some very odd censorship rules you have applied to these forums.
Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#943 - 2011-12-09 09:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Hauling Hal
Abrazzar wrote:
There are no real consequences, so there is no real morality. Games are not real. Do not confuse player behaviour with real person behaviour.


By your logic, playing a game where adults had sex with children would be acceptable as it isn't real. In your mind it might be just a game, but to others it is a fantasy that they want to indulge in. Games can influence real world behaviour, although the person probably already has a problem, the game doesn't create that, but it does influence it.

My example is deliberately over the top on purpose, as people's simplistic views of the world may be true for them, but they will not necessarily be true for everyone. It has already been proved that violent games desensitize people to violence, but this is also true for people who regulalrly watch violent films or even the news...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#944 - 2011-12-09 09:35:27 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Mag's wrote:

The only difference is most of us know it is an actual bona fide game, whereas you and others in this thread seem to be confusing it with real life.



A psychological experiment is neither real life, nor is it a mere game. But ofc your are too small/closed minded to understand something like that, amiright?


Do you know that RL economists study EVE's economy to see if they can apply what they learn here into a RL stock market? Similarly, MMO's in general provide an exquisite insight into the human Psyche. If people like you can't grasp this simple concept, then it is because you are inept... it is not because it's not factual.



Signed,
Your mental superior.
Oh noes, he's upped the ante to included psychological experiments. This must mean he's extremely clever. (or grasping at straws)

A RL economist (His name is Eyjolfur Gudmundsson, if you didn't know) studies the economies of Eve, in order that CCP can better design new content into the game. But I can see you would know all about psychological experiments, because like you said, you are obviously mental.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I believe that the people who do get pleasure out of being scum bags are either suffering from disassociative mental disorders or their real life outward persona is a façade.
I believe you generalise massively, regarding the players of certain aspects of this game. You don't like the style and so therefore label all the same way.
I also believe that you have major issues with differentiating RL with this game and have reading and comprehension issues with Wiki pages.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#945 - 2011-12-09 09:45:05 UTC
Internet anonymity has (again) proven one thing about human nature: A lot of people are dickheads, their black soul contained only because of RL consequences. Take those consequences away and they will go around harassing, griefing and even killing other people, without remorse.

Fortunately, there is nothing in EVE that forces you to go out to the nullsec and be molested by these people.
ThatOleSerpent
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#946 - 2011-12-09 09:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ThatOleSerpent
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
ThatOleSerpent wrote:
Yo, leave our integrity at log in? dude are you smoked? this is a video game, a little hobby on the side. podding bitches is fun, and low sec mining is ********. killing people is an awesome recruitment method, and if your stupid enough to mine alone in low sec, outlaw space, your stupid enough to die. To presume that in game behavior implies malevolence or evil wickedness is ridiculous.
what are you some kind of intergalactic homo?


That censored part was the word " R -E_ T_A-R_D-E-D"


oh yea, i read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect

and no where in there does it talk about evil intentions or deeds, just some people crying about bullying and how people use the internet as a conduit for codependency




The first question is, what is the worth of an opinion that concludes with the words "what are you some kind of intergalactic homo?" Yea... not allot.




After that, all else can be explained by your pea brained reading comprehension. Good thing EVE is a point and click game, yea? Else you could get very easily confused.




i guarantee you people laughed when they read that, that is why I wrote it. I am not running for president di.ck.he.ad I am simply trolling on a forum, and I am formally educated and certainly not stupid. so quit being a fussy vagina and get over yourself . PUKE

T.F.B.F.

Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#947 - 2011-12-09 10:16:56 UTC
I shot at other players ships and pod recently, some got even destroyed Ugh

I dont feel bad or guilty over it though. My wife and kids still love me.

Should I be punished by the internet morallity police ?
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#948 - 2011-12-09 11:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Mag's wrote:
Call's Eternum a mental poopy head



One of the most interesting things about forum wars, is how a person can criticize and reticule someone else without every addressing the true content of their post. Now, although this should generally broadcast to the world said person's stupidity, in a world of socially challenged forum trolls it creates a facade that allows them to save face in the eyes of their dimwitted peers.

You just did that.



ThatOleSerpent wrote:
i guarantee you people laughed when they read that, that is why I wrote it. I am not running for president di.ck.he.ad I am simply trolling on a forum, and I am formally educated and certainly not stupid. so quit being a fussy vagina and get over yourself . PUKE


I did not. That is just you making the most classic of mistakes, you assume that the others see things the way that you do by default and naturally you are mistaken in this assumption. In addition, a formal education does not guarantee intelligence anymore then it guarantees a person a high paying job in this current world economy.

One might also question why you need to come onto a gaming forum and troll in order to express yourself? It suggests a host of personal issues and perhaps discontentment with the way you are treated by others in your life. Every action is reaction, and something in your life has lead you here. You could be helpful or indifferent , just as easy as you could be disagreeable or down right mean. You chose to troll and talk about homos, retards and Vaginas... thus, we know everything we need to know about you through your own admission. As much as you would like to think it, you are not a mystery.


Signed,
The counter troll extraordinaire, wiki warrior masterpiece of the human imagination.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#949 - 2011-12-09 12:06:02 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:


The counter troll extraordinaire, wiki warrior masterpiece of the human imagination.


There is just no end to your illusions of grandeur.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#950 - 2011-12-09 12:07:55 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:


The counter troll extraordinaire, wiki warrior masterpiece of the human imagination.


There is just no end to your illusions of grandeur.



Then I blend in perfectly with the rest of the posters on these forums don't I?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Mohamad Transporte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#951 - 2011-12-09 12:12:17 UTC
To sum it up guys:

Agressors in eve will still agress ... even if they use in high sec a disco bombing typhoon to kill your shuttle...

There seems to be 2 options: Join them or join an entity that fights such action

We in NRDS coalition for example are trying to keep 0.0 space (yes ,,,, even in there!) safe from Players shooting random miners or traders or any player who keep his acts marked as "Civilized"
We have succeeded to secure 90% of Providence region and placed it under order....

There are always way to make things go the right way..... wining about it surely won't

07
Honor & Decency

Rear Admiral Mohamad Transporte
Yulai Federation
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#952 - 2011-12-09 12:14:08 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:


The counter troll extraordinaire, wiki warrior masterpiece of the human imagination.


There is just no end to your illusions of grandeur.


Then I blend in perfectly with the rest of the posters on these forums don't I?


Like I said, there is no end to your illusions of grandeur.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#953 - 2011-12-09 12:15:59 UTC
Hauling Hal wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
There are no real consequences, so there is no real morality. Games are not real. Do not confuse player behaviour with real person behaviour.


By your logic, playing a game where adults had sex with children would be acceptable as it isn't real. In your mind it might be just a game, but to others it is a fantasy that they want to indulge in. Games can influence real world behaviour, although the person probably already has a problem, the game doesn't create that, but it does influence it.

My example is deliberately over the top on purpose, as people's simplistic views of the world may be true for them, but they will not necessarily be true for everyone. It has already been proved that violent games desensitize people to violence, but this is also true for people who regulalrly watch violent films or even the news...


Entirely fine as long as the sex is implied, not explicitly shown, and plays a crucial role in the story, and character development (see The Kite Runner).

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#954 - 2011-12-09 12:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Alpheias wrote:


Like I said, there is no end to your illusions of grandeur.


And as I said, if that is truly the case then I blend with people such as yourself splendidly.






However I can't help but notice that you have addressed nothing in my posts, per usual. So your not even an original troll that might be worth my time now are you? Surrounded with people like you, what else can I conclude but that I am some kind of super-symmetrical being of god-like elegance and intelligence? Looking down upon minds like yours, it is easy to acquire an over active sense of superiority. Maybe you should stop making it so easy?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#955 - 2011-12-09 12:37:27 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:


However I can't help but notice that you have addressed nothing in my posts, per usual. So your not even an original troll that might be worth my time now are you? Surrounded with people like you, what else can I conclude but that I am some kind of super-symmetrical being of god-like elegance and intelligence? Looking down upon minds like yours, it is easy to acquire an over active sense of superiority.


Let us just hope that you won't ever be in a tragic accident then, because that would be the only time your brain would come into contact with reality.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#956 - 2011-12-09 12:50:48 UTC
Hey look, still no content regarding my post.
What an unexpected surprise.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Mrs Sooperdudespaceman
Doomheim
#957 - 2011-12-09 12:51:11 UTC
Trying to explain that Eve is just a game to mental people is like trying to explain Darwins theory of evolution to a Creationist.

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#958 - 2011-12-09 12:56:07 UTC
Mrs Sooperdudespaceman wrote:
Trying to explain that Eve is just a game to mental people is like trying to explain Darwins theory of evolution to a Creationist.



BRUTALITY!

Mrs Sooperdudespaceman Wins!

LolLolLol

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#959 - 2011-12-09 12:57:57 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Please, prove away.

Still does not hide the fact that greifers and bullies are incapable of admitting it.

Waiting for your proof.



I actually was going to post a whole bunch of links for you a while back. But then I remembered I don't give a damn for what you believe. Your adolescent and unmanly whining reflects poorly only on you, and is entirely your problem. I will however leave you with this one quote, which I'm sure you'll dismiss as being invalid somehow, or use the brevity of my reply for some witty remark concerning people that hurt your precious snowflake feelings. Whatever, I'm not here to do research for you; I am however just magnanimous enough to leave you with this one quote, which was spoken in a news conference following the release of a study on youth violence following the Columbine shootings.

Surgeon General David Satcher wrote:
We clearly associate media violence to aggressive behavior. But the impact was very small compared to other things. Some may not be happy with that, but that's where the science is.


By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#960 - 2011-12-09 13:00:57 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Please, prove away.

Still does not hide the fact that greifers and bullies are incapable of admitting it.

Waiting for your proof.



I actually was going to post a whole bunch of links for you a while back. But then I remembered I don't give a damn for what you believe. Your adolescent and unmanly whining reflects poorly only on you, and is entirely your problem. I will however leave you with this one quote, which I'm sure you'll dismiss as being invalid somehow, or use the brevity of my reply for some witty remark concerning people that hurt your precious snowflake feelings. Whatever, I'm not here to do research for you; I am however just magnanimous enough to leave you with this one quote, which was spoken in a news conference following the release of a study on youth violence following the Columbine shootings.

Surgeon General David Satcher wrote:
We clearly associate media violence to aggressive behavior. But the impact was very small compared to other things. Some may not be happy with that, but that's where the science is.




Just throw him this: http://www.theesa.com/facts/violence.asp

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.