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remove lock range limit (250km)
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#1 - 2014-08-15 02:32:00 UTC
eve ships have a hard limit of 250km lock range. I was always wondering why its there. If there is no good reason to have it.. please remove it. There are some fits which could project damage further than 250k.

With on gird warping and combat scanning its easy enough to get into range of snipers, a few km more or less would not make a big difference IMO.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Demon-of-Razgriz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-08-15 02:36:00 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
eve ships have a hard limit of 250km lock range. I was always wondering why its there. If there is no good reason to have it.. please remove it. There are some fits which could project damage further than 250k.

With on gird warping and combat scanning its easy enough to get into range of snipers, a few km more or less would not make a big difference IMO.


I had wondered the same thing but I believe after that its considered off grid. If im wrong then let me know.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-08-15 03:03:32 UTC
Demon-of-Razgriz wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
eve ships have a hard limit of 250km lock range. I was always wondering why its there. If there is no good reason to have it.. please remove it. There are some fits which could project damage further than 250k.

With on gird warping and combat scanning its easy enough to get into range of snipers, a few km more or less would not make a big difference IMO.


I had wondered the same thing but I believe after that its considered off grid. If im wrong then let me know.

In some circumstances yes, but the 240km limit is based off the ship. So te grid could be stretched to over 1000km and the limit is still in place.
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-08-15 03:14:32 UTC
The range is a HARD LIMIT, thus it bound by the code, not by a switch that can be simply flipped off.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#5 - 2014-08-15 03:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Demon-of-Razgriz wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
eve ships have a hard limit of 250km lock range. I was always wondering why its there. If there is no good reason to have it.. please remove it. There are some fits which could project damage further than 250k.

With on gird warping and combat scanning its easy enough to get into range of snipers, a few km more or less would not make a big difference IMO.


I had wondered the same thing but I believe after that its considered off grid. If im wrong then let me know.


the grid can break right next to you if you are really unlucky. i once lost a ship i pointed. it just disappeared. As i flew in the other direction it appeared again.


So I don't think grids have anything to do with the lock range limit... but i could be wrong. I mean when its off grid you can't lock it anyway, so why adding the limit on top of it?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#6 - 2014-08-15 03:33:46 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
The range is a HARD LIMIT, thus it bound by the code, not by a switch that can be simply flipped off.

they can set it to 400k and we have a new HARD LIMIT. I don't think the python spec sais "if you write a space game, keep in mind spaceships will be only able to lock 250km".

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-08-15 03:38:40 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
The range is a HARD LIMIT, thus it bound by the code, not by a switch that can be simply flipped off.

well sure.... but it's a 2 second change to comment it out of the code and roll it out in the next patch if CCP care to.


There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2014-08-15 03:41:12 UTC
I support the idea... but I do distinctly remember the DEVs saying that it was not a simple thing to do... something about digging through legacy code because some code relies on other code to function properly and also needs to be changed in order to make the one simple change.

It's a cost-benefit thing. How much benefit will this small change give for the amount of work required to make it.

How did you Veterans start?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-08-15 04:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
If you really go stupid, you could throw cruise missile reaching a top speed of 14344 m/sec from 383km away in a raven. Most people would probably be unable to notice if you are shooting or not until the missile is in it's final approach at which point I am not sure what can outrun a missile going 14344 m/sec but who care because you will recieve more a few seconds later.

Cut down your range to "only" 347km in a Barghest and your missile will hit in 10.5 seconds. That's probably too fast for most ship to realize a missile has been fired and warping out. It's only flying at 33013 m/sec anyway so you can totally outrun it in the last few kilometers right.

And with my poor fitting skills, this might not be the most absurd numbers possible.

I forgot the evident bastionned Golem at 424 kilometers. The proposition of 400 km is obviously not enough.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#10 - 2014-08-15 04:32:12 UTC
Ultra-long-range sniping is obsolete until same-grid combat scanning is destroyed in a fire.

With that in mind, what's the point of increasing the lock range?
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-08-15 05:29:06 UTC
Guys, when he says "hard limit" he doesn't mean that there's a single line of code that is separate that distinctly says "maxLockRange=250,000".

It's buried so far into the legacy code that they'd have to just about re-code a hefty portion of EVE.

"Why don't they do that?" you might ask? Well they have been working on fixing the legacy code. A lot of the changes post Crucible came about because they were cleaning up the old code. If they were to re-do everything, they'd might as well re-write EVE in the latest version of Python (since it's 2 versions older, I believe) and they said that that is off the table for the very near future.
Lothras Andastar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-08-15 06:56:53 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Guys, when he says "hard limit" he doesn't mean that there's a single line of code that is separate that distinctly says "maxLockRange=250,000".

It's buried so far into the legacy code that they'd have to just about re-code a hefty portion of EVE.

"Why don't they do that?" you might ask? Well they have been working on fixing the legacy code. A lot of the changes post Crucible came about because they were cleaning up the old code. If they were to re-do everything, they'd might as well re-write EVE in the latest version of Python (since it's 2 versions older, I believe) and they said that that is off the table for the very near future.

See my sig. :)

Because the Legacy Code has too much Psssssssssssssssh, nothing will ever get fixed until CCP stop wasting money on failed sparkle MMOs and instead rewrite the entire backend of EvE from scratch.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-08-15 07:23:49 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Ultra-long-range sniping is obsolete until same-grid combat scanning is destroyed in a fire.

With that in mind, what's the point of increasing the lock range?



Probably wants to see missile doctrine fail horribly as beyond 250 even a modest active tank will get ample time to rep up with flight times.

I'd say rokh would like it...but that lr sniper fit be so glass cannon-ey you could warp noob ships to them and they'd pop the rokhs quite possibly. Also the dps for loooooong range setups aren't that great. Chipping paint really against a well set up tank.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-08-15 12:38:46 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Ultra-long-range sniping is obsolete until same-grid combat scanning is destroyed in a fire.

With that in mind, what's the point of increasing the lock range?



Probably wants to see missile doctrine fail horribly as beyond 250 even a modest active tank will get ample time to rep up with flight times.

I'd say rokh would like it...but that lr sniper fit be so glass cannon-ey you could warp noob ships to them and they'd pop the rokhs quite possibly. Also the dps for loooooong range setups aren't that great. Chipping paint really against a well set up tank.



If you can't survive all the volley from the launcher from close range, you won't from long range either unless you warp out. The first missile volley take some time to reach you but once they do, the next volley is right behind it. More flight time only increase the time before the dps start being applied. The garmur I set as example still has a 2nd volley en route when you start getting hit and possibly a 3rd one. The real issue really is on grid probing. Missile trajectory/flight path calculation might be a little bit too...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#15 - 2014-08-15 12:50:04 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:


Probably wants to see missile doctrine fail horribly as beyond 250 even a modest active tank will get ample time to rep up with flight times.


Flight times are the same for each volley, which means that the volleys come in at the same rate as current volleys, just slightly longer lag between first volley and first damage on ship, and much much more time for a firewall setup to kill them, defenders to actually work, etc.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-08-15 13:11:17 UTC
As a programmer, saying a change for said code only takes 2 seconds makes you look extra stupid. Just saying. :)

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-08-15 13:15:30 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Ultra-long-range sniping is obsolete until same-grid combat scanning is destroyed in a fire.


That will be a glorious day.

Never going to happen in my lifetime I wouldnt think, but glorious thought all the same.
Zexy Jeffries
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-08-15 13:35:43 UTC
Yes pls!

Above 270-310km pls!

I would like to use my 340km optimal 300dps Eagle one day! (on a jb so i can kill the unkillable cepters)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-08-15 13:43:15 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:


Probably wants to see missile doctrine fail horribly as beyond 250 even a modest active tank will get ample time to rep up with flight times.


Flight times are the same for each volley, which means that the volleys come in at the same rate as current volleys, just slightly longer lag between first volley and first damage on ship, and much much more time for a firewall setup to kill them, defenders to actually work, etc.


Check the speed missile reach for that kind of range. It's would be problematic to firewall missile that can reach 30 km/seconds.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#20 - 2014-08-15 13:52:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:


Probably wants to see missile doctrine fail horribly as beyond 250 even a modest active tank will get ample time to rep up with flight times.


Flight times are the same for each volley, which means that the volleys come in at the same rate as current volleys, just slightly longer lag between first volley and first damage on ship, and much much more time for a firewall setup to kill them, defenders to actually work, etc.


Check the speed missile reach for that kind of range. It's would be problematic to firewall missile that can reach 30 km/seconds.

Due to the interesting mechanics of missiles, the *lovely* pathing system and similar, getting a firewall stack 50 or 60km deep along the path would not be too excessively hard for a well disciplined fleet.
*snorts and then falls over laughing*
Disciplined fleets being the hard part.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
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