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warp drive active!
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Thread Lockaholics Anonymous 758
Belt Scout Thread Lockaholics Anonymous Likes received: 758	#21 - 2014-08-10 19:31:25 UTC What's all this have to do with using ISBoxer to solo gank people's freighters?? . They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the impatient side, and the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake. **This IS my main so STFU.

IIshira

School of Applied Knowledge

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,332

#22 - 2014-08-10 20:30:55 UTC

Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

Grimpak wrote:

IIshira wrote:

Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

what kind of monster does this kind of maths, the kind with letters, on a Sunday morning!

This is what separates the hard core gamer nerds from the average gamer. I'm not going to hate on them though because they're the ones that make up cool formulas that make everything work.

I don't hate the gamer, it's just that maths and I don't go well with each other.

Then as a dyslexic i must inform you dude, we picked the wroooooooooooong game to fall into.
as IIshira said though, they keep our world (and eve) going so much respect, (and a bit of jealousy Blink

)

I was a math nerd in school but grown up I want no part of it. I just kill things... I'll let the smart people figure out how the bullets kill them Twisted

3,094
Serene Repose Likes received: 3,094	#23 - 2014-08-10 23:03:09 UTC gleefully joins the vibrant discussion about the ins-and-outs of warping We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Gor Yo

Taxes Shmuckses

Likes received: 27

#24 - 2014-08-11 14:39:30 UTC

Scipio Artelius wrote:

Except that, time is not 0 when you enter warp as far as I know (I do have a hangover though, my brain is much less focussed than its normal fuzzy state).

Align time and the time to get up to at least 3/4 speed to enter warp affect the initial time value.

So e won't be 1.

But. I'll freely admit thst my memory could be very fuzzy on this. Basic math is simple otherwise.

No, we are talking about the moment the ship enters the warp. That is the moment when warp acceleration begins. What happened before is irrelevant. At the very best, it should be:
t=0, V_0=(3/4)*V_nonwarp_max
and
V(T)=V_0 + k*e^(k*t)
That is according to their formula. But since even the fastest ships have non-warp speed around 1 km/s, that is orders of magnitude less that warp speed of even 1 AU/s (1 AU is 150 000 000 km). So for all practical purposes, V_0 ~ 0.

Sibyyl wrote:

I think it's obvious that Fozzie meant:
x=e^(k.t)-1, thus v=k.(e^(k.t)-1)

I dont know who Fozzie is, but even that would be incorrect.
If x=e^(k.t)-1, then v=dx/dt and still equals k.e^(k.t)!!!

The only way to get it would be assuming that he meant that v=k.(e^(k.t)-1), then integrating and using a boundary condition x(0)=0 we can get x=e^(k.t)-k.t-1

But that is a lot of assumptions. One would think that a game that uses a Gaussian shape (bell curve) for something as mundane as stacking penalties would get simple integrals/derivatives right.

Anyway, that is why I asked in the OP what was the general consensus regarding this thing, if any, since the officially stated formula is not applicable.

P.S. It is Monday, I hope I didnt offend anybodies feelings towards "maths".

Gor Yo

Taxes Shmuckses

Likes received: 27

#25 - 2014-08-11 14:59:52 UTC

BTW, assuming that the correct formula for speed for acceleration part is
v=k.(e^(k.t)-1)
where k is the max warp speed,
the time to reach that warp speed can be obtained from:
k=k.(e^(k.t_0)-1)
so
t_0=ln(2)/k
For lets say a badger with 4.5 warp speed, that comes out to be roughly about 0.15 seconds. If you warp and hover the mouse pointer over the speed gauge, you could see that it takes certainly way longer than 0.15 seconds before the speed reaches 4.5 and stays there.
So there is something wrong with that formula too...

Alavaria Fera

GoonWaffe

Likes received: 6,953

#26 - 2014-08-11 16:24:51 UTC

Gor Yo wrote:

It should be at least 1 second, if that's what you mean?

Server ticks and all... especially in Tidi

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Serene Repose

Likes received: 3,094

#27 - 2014-08-11 16:46:46 UTC

Oh. I get it! Someone wants mathematical precision of execution in an INTERNET based game! OH! Use my formula.

a = the time it takes to click the right button.

b = the time it takes for whatever to look like it's actually happening!

c = the data being processed apart from the graphic representation.

d = my lack of comprehension in real terms that this happens with EVERYTHING I do in game.

z = the last letter of the alphabet.

SO...we get a+b+c+d = d+c+b+a!

Z?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

New Eden Tech Support 21,564
Ralph King-Griffin New Eden Tech Support Likes received: 21,564	#28 - 2014-08-11 17:16:06 UTC Gor Yo wrote: P.S. It is Monday, I hope I didnt offend anybodies feelings towards "maths". no problem, fascinated actually. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations =]\|[=

Gor Yo

Taxes Shmuckses

Likes received: 27

#29 - 2014-08-12 09:23:53 UTC

Alavaria Fera wrote:

It should be at least 1 second, if that's what you mean?

Server ticks and all... especially in Tidi

by your logic, everything should be an integer number of seconds, huh? align time, module activation time, launcher/turret rate of fire. I mean, server ticks and all...
I mean, why even use decimals on all those parameters when server ticks and all? Roll

Gor Yo

Taxes Shmuckses

Likes received: 27

#30 - 2014-08-12 09:28:50 UTC

Serene Repose wrote:

I am sure you want mathematical precision when it comes to DPS. why should this be any different?
Sure there is lag, but when it is tenths of a second vs seconds, then it is not lag, but rather something wrong with the released formula.

Gully Alex Foyle

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 4,497

#31 - 2014-08-12 18:01:50 UTC | Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle

OP, Fozzie's formulas are fine.

x = e^kt is distance, in meters; t is time in seconds

v = k*e^kt is speed, in m/s; this formula is the derivative of the above formula, aka the definition of speed. it's correct.

Now, say Vmax is your maximum warp speed. Vmax = k*A where A is 150 billion meters (1 AU).

So if you want to know acceleration time, its Vmax = k*A = k*e^kt.

==> A = e^kt

==> ln(A) = kt

==> t = ln(A)/k = 25.7 / k

For example, a cruiser (3 AU/s) would take 8.6 seconds to reach max warp speed, an inty (8 AU/s) would take 3.2 seconds.

Sounds about right to me, though I CBA to test it.

Fozzie was slightly fuzzier on deceleration, I'll think about it and post back if I nail the formula.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Yamato Holdings 185
Hadrian Blackstone Yamato Holdings Likes received: 185	#32 - 2014-08-12 18:13:33 UTC Nevermind the fact that training a skill instantly makes my cargo bay bigger, or that my ship magically orients to a horizontal plane when I sit still, by all means let's try and figure out using real math how warp drives work in game.

Gully Alex Foyle

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 4,497

#33 - 2014-08-12 21:16:28 UTC

I think I got the deceleration formula too.

Assuming j is the deceleration constant (from here):

v = max speed * e^(-jt)

With that formula, speed could never be zero, obviously. It seems the cutoff Fozzie uses is around 100 m/s.

So the time to decelerate from max speed to 100 m/s = ln (max speed / 100) / j. Max speed must be in m/s, so you need to multiply AU/s speed by 150 billion. For example you get:

. 11.6 seconds for an inty (8 AU/s, j = 2)
. 22.2 seconds for a cruiser (3 AU/s, j = 1) yes, I know Fozzie says 21.6 seconds, it depends on that '100 m/s cutoff', which is the best number that I could get to replicate Fozzie's numbers for all the different ships. Close enough Smile

The distance (in AU) you need to be able to 'hit the brakes' and stop from max speed is simply max speed (in AU) / j.

So an inty needs 4 AU, a cruiser 3 AU.

The distance you need to accelerate to max speed is always exactly 1 AU.

So once you know the cruise distance, the cruise time is simply distance / speed.

Then you add the 3 times (accel+cruise+decel) and you got your answer!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Gully Alex Foyle

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 4,497

#34 - 2014-08-12 21:21:23 UTC | Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle

I'll try I simplified version, just the final formulas:

k is your max warp speed (as shown in game)
j is the number you need to get from here
D is warp distance (in AU)

t1 (accel time) is 25.7/k

t3 (decel time) is (ln(k) + 21.1)/j

d2 (cruise distance) is D-1-k/j EDIT: up to k=6, k=3j, so d2 is simply D-4

t2 (cruise time) is d2/k

t1+t2+t3 is your total warp time! \o/

Let's try it on the Battlecruiser here, warping 10 AU:
k = 2.5 AU/s
j = 0.8
D = 10 AU

t1 = 25.7/2.5 = 10.3 seconds
t3 = (ln(2.5)+21.1)/0.8 = 27.5 seconds
d2 = 10-1-2.5/0.8 = 5.9 AU
t2 = 5.9/2.5 = 2.4 seconds

Total time = 10.3+27.5+2.4 = 40.2 seconds! \o/ it works (I hope Big smile

)

It becomes trickier if you don't have enough distance to accelerate/decelerate from max speed... I'll maybe try that one tomorrow Roll

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

stoicfaux

Likes received: 6,283

#35 - 2014-08-12 21:35:02 UTC | Edited by: stoicfaux

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

With that formula, speed could never be zero, obviously. It seems the cutoff Fozzie uses is around 100 m/s.

IIRC 100m/s or 50% of sub-warp speed. I lost my bookmarks, so let me see if I can dig up the reference.

reference: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3902148#post3902148

Quote:

You're mostly correct, yes. The exact time depends on the max (sub-warp) speed of the ship. Obviously this varies a lot even within a single ship class, and even more so depending on fittings. Ships will exit warp mode when their warping speed drops below 50% of sub-warp max speed, or 100m/s, whichever is the lower.
My chart is written assuming a simplified fixed exit at 100m/s, so it sounds like your math is good :)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Gully Alex Foyle

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 4,497

#36 - 2014-08-12 21:44:01 UTC | Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle

stoicfaux wrote:

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

With that formula, speed could never be zero, obviously. It seems the cutoff Fozzie uses is around 100 m/s.

IIRC 100m/s or 50% of sub-warp speed. I lost my bookmarks, so let me see if I can dig up the reference.

reference: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3902148#post3902148

Quote:

Thanks, mate!

75 m/s actually works pretty good in replicating Fozzie's numbers, except for Titans/Freighters where you'd need 10 m/s, for some reason... What?

Could also just be a mistake in my calculations, obviously.

EDIT: saw you're update. Awesome, that explains everything...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Unsuccessful At Everything

The Troll Bridge

Likes received: 23,523

#37 - 2014-08-12 21:47:26 UTC

Guiz, CCP's maths are wrong. According to the maths, I should have taken 23.22 seconds to warp from this gate to that gate, but in reality it took 23.41 seconds. I timed it with my iphone!

Therefore I should be reimbursed .19 seconds of training time for every warp I do because reasons.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Weaponised Vegemite Flying Dangerous 47,807
Scipio Artelius Weaponised Vegemite Flying Dangerous Likes received: 47,807	#38 - 2014-08-13 09:08:44 UTC Gor Yo wrote: No, we are talking about the moment the ship enters the warp. You're assuming that the code also makes that 0 time. The graphs would suggest otherwise and it's not as far as I am aware.

Bat Country Pandemic Horde 19,001
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#39 - 2014-08-13 09:15:48 UTC 1 I never work out the maths behind something to this degree. Like all madmen I just toss stuff togther and it tends to work

Hedion University Amarr Empire 5
Daetharis Hedion University Amarr Empire Likes received: 5	#40 - 2014-08-13 10:06:25 UTC bloody 'ell fellow capsuleers. I click on warp and let bygones be bygones. Whatever folks are doing to necessitate such maths in the game is way way past me. You're cleverer than I !