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Warp speed changes need a redo
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2014-08-12 19:56:36 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Who are you to say battleships can afford to lose rigs compared to smaller ships, thats pretty arrogant.


Most likely the only person in all of EVE who pilots battleships fitted for warping as fast as frigates in pvp.


Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

I assure you the increased buffer from trimarks/slaves are of great importance to many BS pilots.


Handy but not needed. Battleships get enough EHP without rigs.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
(I think perhaps you meant to say you were a clown-car pilot instead of a BS pilot?...)

Also, unless you are just trolling at this point (or willfully ignorant/dyslexic/etc), I clearly suggested hyperspatial/ascendancy nerfs to address your whiny 'BS's would go to fast' concerns, could be done on a mass basis, so how does that equate to 'nerfing literally everything'? Also, weren't people able to to move ships bigger than Cruisers around before ascendancy implants were available by your 'nothing to see here' mentality?...

I tried to follow your 'logic' dude, but its pretty clear you've entered the troll zone.

F


You want to nerf a lot of stuff and create a huge headache of CCP just so you don't have to make fitting choices. Think your too slow? Fit a rig and get those implant for cruiser warp speeds.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#82 - 2014-08-12 20:03:51 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Battleships can afford to lose the rigs to do so unlike the smaller ships. Align times are also no issue given that I often beat cruisers into warp (and many frigates).

Also nerfing ascendancies/hyperspatials for literally everything else in the game is a ****** move to pull just because you don't want to make sacrifices when fitting your battleship.


Some battleships can. Most can't. This issue only reinforces the current state where the Megathron is the only BS used for shooting things (as opposed to the Armageddon and Scorpion) that is worth flying at all. 8 lows and trivial fitting means it's easy to make up for the loss of rigs, you can't do this on Amarr BS (needs fitting/cap mods) or Minmatar BS. (doesn't have the slots to begin with)


Sure you can, you only need one rig slot.

These same people didn't fly battleships when roaming back before the warp changes for "reasons". They will always have reasons to not fly them.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2014-08-12 21:14:55 UTC
One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2014-08-13 06:53:30 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.


Indeed, I'm not sure we should limit entire ship lines based on people maybe having a (non-trivial cost) implant set in.

We don't balance fast kiters because of snakes, for example.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2014-08-13 07:03:03 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.


So use rigs and the low slot mods, same result.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#86 - 2014-08-13 19:18:23 UTC
I disagree baltec1, fittings or implants shouldn't be used to 'un f#ck' a f#cked hull... Adapt to scenarios, yes. Enhance, yes. Even close a single resist hole, sure. But not to un-f#ck.

My premise is that as front-line ships (and not dreads or capitals), BC's and BS's need to be of a class that can still nimbly move system to system in tactical advances to battle, and you should achieve that without gimping a traditional BC/BS fits or implant use....

Interceptors are fast because of their base hull attributes, not because of fitments, rigs or implants; that is icing....

BC's and BS's however are f#cked now in base mobility, slow as molasses with no substantive compensating plusses in DPS or EHP vs T3's or even HAC's (which are way faster to boot)...

Lets put it another way...movement through EvE systems with a spaceship is more central and core to base game play, than any other mechanic. Flying spaceships is first and foremost what we do, whether we pvp, pve, haul..whatever...

That activity must always be enjoyable

Dreads and caps (as artillery pieces) do this in fun ways by using cynos. Zap! Your there....

BC's and Battleships however have had their base movement gimped, and in so doing injected an unnecessary dependency on un-f#ck rigging or implanting them just to FLY?

That is NUTS.

Let's boil it down...

At its core, someone should be able to undock a fricken T1 Abbadon and go 5-10 jumps through jump gates, without wanting to put a goddamn pistol in their mouth (nor loading up on hyperspatial rigs or ascendancy implants to counter that BASE SUCK IN THE HULL...)

Again, modules, rigs and implants should be for scenarios and variability of choice, not basic mechanic UN-F#CKING.

Ultimately, all I propose is BC's and BS's be a little faster so they are simply fun and FLYABLE again as solo/small-gang ships traversing gates, and you claim the sky would fall if done? Hardly.

F

Would you like to know more?
Pidgeon Saissore
Tyrant's
#87 - 2014-08-14 08:40:06 UTC
To anyone who challenges the physics of it this is about Warp not regular travel. You are literally compressing (There is no correct term for it but that's as close as it gets) the space through which you are traveling. You then move through your compressed space normally. Bigger warp drive means tighter space which means multiplying your normal movement by more. If you want to apply that reasoning to the game the maximum warp speed should be more or less constant throughout the ship classes, with the exception of ships designed for faster warp, though acceleration would vary considerably. If you want to apply even more real physics to the game there shouldn't be any max speeds, only acceleration.

As for what I think the game should be: the current state is acceptable though I would like my battleships to move faster.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#88 - 2014-09-08 15:47:07 UTC
I flew an Abbadon in a tactical advance to battle recently. It gave me a sad.

When did we decide BS's, BC's (and even Cruisers) would be sluggish 'front of the line' ships, that are dragged through multiple gate jumps like they are stuck in molasses?

Again, I get the need for a delta, but the baseline IMHO is that BS's should be in the range of 2.7 AU warp speeds so they are at least fun to fly again; without gimping their fits or implants to mitigate bad base speeds.

The more I watch other upcoming games (Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen), the more I can't help compare the slow moving sub-caps of EvE, with the zoom zoom zoom! I am seeing in their vids...

F

Would you like to know more?
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#89 - 2014-09-08 18:56:43 UTC
The change to 100mn MWDs is a step in the right direction, but they are still functionally clumsy and impractical without a titan bridge. Seems odd that an entire class of ships should be entirely reliant on access to a titan.

Gila are 400m in Jita, Rattlesnakes are 460m. GIla does everything well and sees demand feed its prices, whereas the bloated Rattlesnake market barely can unload the things as demand is so tepid. While there are certainly other factors playing into this, a 60m price difference between them is at least an indicator of how bad a spot BS are in generally at the moment.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#90 - 2014-09-08 19:16:02 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sigras wrote:
The Eve universe needs to be bigger not smaller...

Travel should be slower not faster.


My guess is that you are a miner.

Because only a miner would say "more tedium please!"

My guess is that you are a WoW player,

because only a WoW player wants instant gratification at the expense of the game


So, spending more time travelling between content is a good thing?

......wut......
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#91 - 2014-09-08 19:20:26 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sigras wrote:
The Eve universe needs to be bigger not smaller...

Travel should be slower not faster.


My guess is that you are a miner.

Because only a miner would say "more tedium please!"

My guess is that you are a WoW player,

because only a WoW player wants instant gratification at the expense of the game


So, spending more time travelling between content is a good thing?

......wut......


Yes. If you want to warp faster go fit a warp speed rig.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-09-08 20:04:44 UTC
Rigs and modules should be to make ships better at what they do, not un-frak a pre-frakked condition baked into base warp speeds of cruisers and larger since the warp-speed changes (screwup) recently implemented, that made these ships *suck* to fly now.

Tell me though, why we can't we buff the warp speeds as mentioned in the OP? Specifics please.

F

Would you like to know more?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#93 - 2014-09-08 20:09:28 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Rigs and modules should be to make ships better at what they do, not un-frak a pre-frakked condition baked into base warp speeds of cruisers and larger since the warp-speed changes (screwup) recently implemented, that made these ships *suck* to fly now.

Tell me though, why we can't we buff the warp speeds as mentioned in the OP? Specifics please.

F



Because people like me would be getting intercepter like speeds out of things like the rattle.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2014-09-08 20:19:33 UTC
While I have no problem with battleships being slow I do feel that they should have received some kind of moderate buff to compensate for the mobility nerf that they all got. This nerf combined with the mass murder of so many utility highs has really left them in a bad spot compared to other ship classes. They were after all more dependent on utility highs to deal with smaller ships than any other class.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#95 - 2014-09-08 20:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
baltec1 wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Rigs and modules should be to make ships better at what they do, not un-frak a pre-frakked condition baked into base warp speeds of cruisers and larger since the warp-speed changes (screwup) recently implemented, that made these ships *suck* to fly now.

Tell me though, why we can't we buff the warp speeds as mentioned in the OP? Specifics please.

F



Because people like me would be getting intercepter like speeds out of things like the rattle.

Are you saying an ascendancy implanted & rigged Rattlesnake would go faster than an ascendancy implanted & rigged Stiletto?

Also, isn't the answer to nerf ascendancy implants and hyperspatial rigs also as part of the proposed changes if you have an issue with new top-speeds of BS's?

Dont think the proposed changes must be done in a vacuum, of not also looking at ascendancies and hyperspatials. The differentials would remain.

F

Would you like to know more?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2014-09-08 22:59:35 UTC
Even if it did let you warp that fast, so what?

You expend all those slots AND precious implant slots to go faster...I wouldnt consider your results imbalanced as you still have a stupid align time, are far less effective in BS combat than a BS fit more traditionally. Or more specifically no more or less imbalanced than any other implant set.

/shrug. Just seems to me that it's another of eves trade offs, except today its not worth the trade.
Sigras
Conglomo
#97 - 2014-09-08 23:36:15 UTC
Battleships are barely better than HACs? My abaddon does 850 DPS at 45 km with 120,000 EHP with a standard T2 fit, also I get the option of having light drones to help with frigates... I'd love to see the HAC that can match that...

HACs are more offensive and battleships are more defensive, the reason we see no battleships on the field is because nobody is actually having to play defense right now because of the nature of Sov warfare in Eve. Everything is just border skirmishes, and nobody is actually fighting over sov.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#98 - 2014-09-08 23:48:37 UTC
Current warp speed values.
These could be improved by leaving the current warp speed acceleration and deceleration values in place and slightly buffing the warp speed for cruiser and larger hulls.

T2 Cruiser/DST … 3.3 » 4.0 (acceleration = 3.3)
Cruiser/Indy … 3.0 » 3.5 (acceleration = 3.0)
Command Ship … 2.75 » 3.3 (acceleration = 2.75)
Battlecruiser … 2.5 » 3.0 (acceleration = 2.5)
T2 Battleship … 2.2 » 2.8 (acceleration = 2.2)
Battleship … 2.0 » 2.5 (acceleration = 2.0)
Capitals/Jump Freighter … 1.5 » 2.0 (acceleration = 1.5)
Freighter/Titan … 1.36 » 1.5 (acceleration = 1.36)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2014-09-09 00:20:22 UTC
Sigras wrote:
HACs are more offensive and battleships are more defensive, the reason we see no battleships on the field is because nobody is actually having to play defense right now because of the nature of Sov warfare in Eve. Everything is just border skirmishes, and nobody is actually fighting over sov.



Agreed. When all is said and one BS are regularly the fall back fleet when disengaging is not an option.

That said, I'd like that to be not their only role in life. It's a fine role to be sure, but it shouldnt be the only one*. Pigeon holing is [generally] bad.



*outlier/niche/bizarro/oddball/you-know-what-I-mean fits dont make a meta. Break the oddballs if that is what it takes to make a new meta work imo.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-09-09 00:22:11 UTC
I don't mind the current speeds tbh. A freighter *feels* massive as it slowly grinds up to max warp speed, and battleships have a similarly heavy feel to them. But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to nudge their numbers up a little. Capitals maybe should have been 1.5au base, BS 2.25 and BC 2.75. But I'm nitpicking.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.