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[Hyperion] Nestor Tweaks

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Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#161 - 2014-08-12 15:26:14 UTC
Ok a little confused, I get that this is not a must have ship as laid out, but I can not see it as horrible.


First in some cases the price is an issue, to some people it simply not a barrier.

Second, if it can beat the guardian on pure rep power (with limited range) it would seem their are cases when it would replace one or more guardians in a logistics wing and be a plus to the group (since pilots are often the limiting factor).

Third it can do some damage with 125 mb and +50% sentry drones that can be assigned to help the fleet (guardians can not).

Fourth, It would seem to have a few spare mids to do carry things to annoy the enemy.

Fifth, refitted for damage and using heavy drones is it really that far behind a Domi out side point blank range? (not a good use of the ship, but with refitting easier may be the right thing to do at the time.


Again at 1.2 bil, it is not cost efficient, but in limited roles it would seem to be better and some people will pay a lot more to get a bit more out of their most limited resource, Pilots.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#162 - 2014-08-12 15:41:13 UTC
nestor needs more cap.
Mario Putzo
#163 - 2014-08-12 15:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.

The Nestor sucks because it is outclassed by ships a fraction of its price. Even after the changes a Domi is almost always going to be a better combat ship, better in an RR fleet, better in survivability against the price point, EVEN if you halve the price of the Nestor. It will never be an exploratory vessel because it is to slow, it can't cloak, frigates and cruisers do it better at a fraction of the cost.

Just make the thing a Black Ops Logistics ship and be done with it. Get rid of the drone bay in exchange for a fuel bay. Give it a jump drive and let it fill a role that does not exist currently in the game. You have an opportunity to completely change the dynamic of Black Ops Fleets.


BTW Maintenance bays should be removed from the game anyway. People can use MDU's now, and the only reason there is a perception of Carriers being to strong is because of their ability to refit on the fly. Best just to remove them all.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2014-08-12 15:59:48 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
Ok a little confused, I get that this is not a must have ship as laid out, but I can not see it as horrible.


First in some cases the price is an issue, to some people it simply not a barrier.

Second, if it can beat the guardian on pure rep power (with limited range) it would seem their are cases when it would replace one or more guardians in a logistics wing and be a plus to the group (since pilots are often the limiting factor).

Third it can do some damage with 125 mb and +50% sentry drones that can be assigned to help the fleet (guardians can not).

Fourth, It would seem to have a few spare mids to do carry things to annoy the enemy.

Fifth, refitted for damage and using heavy drones is it really that far behind a Domi out side point blank range? (not a good use of the ship, but with refitting easier may be the right thing to do at the time.


Again at 1.2 bil, it is not cost efficient, but in limited roles it would seem to be better and some people will pay a lot more to get a bit more out of their most limited resource, Pilots.

I'm coming around. If the Nestor was as cheap as a mach is currently, I would use it in certain situations.
Heat-seeking Moisture Missile
Deep Thought Labs
#165 - 2014-08-12 16:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Heat-seeking Moisture Missile
I guess I'm confused as to why the Nestor has a remote rep bonus in the first place. Have you
looked into giving it another bonus instead of this one?

It seems to me the Nestor was doomed from the start. By allowing covert ops cloaks on the Astero and
the Stratios, you painted yourself into a corner, CCP. What role should the BS play in the SOE ships lineup? I
don't think you clearly set out that purpose before you started releasing the lineup.

The Nestor just seems like a victim of 'piece-meal' planning.



@Mario
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.

Indeed.
progodlegend
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#166 - 2014-08-12 16:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: progodlegend
BayneNothos wrote:
Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.

Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.

[Nestor, Nestor fit]

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Micro Jump Drive
ECCM - Magnetometric II
ECCM - Magnetometric II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II

Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Targeting System Subcontroller I


This guy gets it, but there are ways to do it with out needing the guardian to cap transfer it.

Two hints:
Large Egress port maximizer rigs
Talisman implants

However, in general you are on the right track, I mean that fit needs a good bit of work, but you're in the right frame of mind. I can't believe no one understands how powerful a 50% bonus to remote repair amount really is. It's quite possibly one of the most overpowered ship bonuses in the game. And it has a 4% resist bonus? Damnnnnnn.

This has been your friendly CSM pvp representative, stopping in with advice.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#167 - 2014-08-12 16:16:58 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oh look a "Just add a maintenance bay" tweak.

The Nestor sucks because it is outclassed by ships a fraction of its price. Even after the changes a Domi is almost always going to be a better combat ship, better in an RR fleet, better in survivability against the price point, EVEN if you halve the price of the Nestor. It will never be an exploratory vessel because it is to slow, it can't cloak, frigates and cruisers do it better at a fraction of the cost.

Just make the thing a Black Ops Logistics ship and be done with it. Get rid of the drone bay in exchange for a fuel bay. Give it a jump drive and let it fill a role that does not exist currently in the game. You have an opportunity to completely change the dynamic of Black Ops Fleets.


BTW Maintenance bays should be removed from the game anyway. People can use MDU's now, and the only reason there is a perception of Carriers being to strong is because of their ability to refit on the fly. Best just to remove them all.


if you replaced some of the DOmis in a group with a some Nestors the total rep power of the group goes up, in exchange for some applied damage against smaller ships. The Nestor has more native Armor and Structure, gets a resist bonus and will no have a lower sig radius, so its tank should be better, than the Domi.

This does not apply to situations where isk efficient applies obviously since trading a two nesters for five enemy domis will leave you on the short end.

LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-08-12 16:29:52 UTC
As a C6 wormholler, and PvP FC, I say Nestor is still Trash, with a capital T. Not worth flying even it costed 100mil.

What is it supposed to do?

Logi PvP?
2 guardians are better then 2 nestors in ALL categories. Tankier, faster, better reps and range, less mass, less sig, more sensor strength, cheaper... Show me an idiot who will drop 2 nestors with max rep range of 20km over 2 guardians with 25% better reps and range of 70km.

DPS PvP with refit ability?
In Wormhole fights arent Tidi fests where huge fleets have all the time in the world to refit. Engagements happen in 2-5 minute spans. Refitting in fast-paced combat for smaller gangs is not feasible, nor desirable. Im not going to mess up my fleet by telling people to refit guns or tank in the middle of fast-flowing T3 combat. Every other situation is covered by mobile depots or correct fits prior to departure.

Wormhole PvE?
In a C6-C5 marauders and T3s outperform Nestor in all categories - dps and hacking/scanning.
In a C4 - and below, regular Dominixes and battlecruisers are sufficient, and better.

Roams from WH to null?
Battleships on roams? Seriously? Good luck with that, I will stick to HACs and Logi, thanks.

Solo Daytriping into C3-C4 WH space from K-space?
Repping your sentry drones with small reppers and ninjaing loot? Trying to rep geckos and failing cause small rep range is like 10km? Horrible capacitor comes in for the win! No spider cap chain - no repping on this ship, plain and simple. So this is out too.

The ONLY use for this ship is a brick-tanked instant mobile depot/cyno/bait for dread/super-capital fleets in null-sec.

Which is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in wormholes, and everywhere else.

Sorry Fozzie, much as you like this ship, its garbage. Absolute, horrible, garbage. Visually, and role-wise.

Stop trying to fix what cant be fixed; take it out of the game, redesign the whole thing from scratch - start with graphics redesign, then pick a combat or PvE role, and flesh it out.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#169 - 2014-08-12 16:34:19 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
BayneNothos wrote:
Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.

Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.

[Nestor, Nestor fit]

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Micro Jump Drive
ECCM - Magnetometric II
ECCM - Magnetometric II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II

Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Targeting System Subcontroller I


This guy gets it, but there are ways to do it with out needing the guardian to cap transfer it.

Two hints:
Large Egress port maximizer rigs
Talisman implants

However, in general you are on the right track, I mean that fit needs a good bit of work, but you're in the right frame of mind. I can't believe no one understands how powerful a 50% bonus to remote repair amount really is. It's quite possibly one of the most overpowered ship bonuses in the game. And it has a 4% resist bonus? Damnnnnnn.

This has been your friendly CSM pvp representative, stopping in with advice.


What are you smoking? Run the eft numbers, 2 guardians put out 20% more reps then 1 nestor and 1 feeder guardian, or 2 spider nestors. And 2 guardians do it for fraction of the price, do it up to 70km vs 21km, are faster, tankier, hardier vs ECM, lock 2 times faster, and have way less sig.

And if you need talisman sets to make a ship work, thats an automatic fail.

Thanks no thanks.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#170 - 2014-08-12 16:34:25 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
As a C6 wormholler, and PvP FC, I say Nestor is still Trash, with a capital T. Not worth flying even it costed 100mil.

What is it supposed to do?

Logi PvP?
2 guardians are better then 2 nestors in ALL categories. Tankier, faster, better reps and range, less mass, less sig, more sensor strength, cheaper... Show me an idiot who will drop 2 nestors with max rep range of 20km over 2 guardians with 25% better reps and range of 70km.

DPS PvP with refit ability?
In Wormhole fights arent Tidi fests where huge fleets have all the time in the world to refit. Engagements happen in 2-5 minute spans. Refitting in fast-paced combat for smaller gangs is not feasible, nor desirable. Im not going to mess up my fleet by telling people to refit guns or tank in the middle of fast-flowing T3 combat. Every other situation is covered by mobile depots or correct fits prior to departure.

Wormhole PvE?
In a C6-C5 marauders and T3s outperform Nestor in all categories - dps and hacking/scanning.
In a C4 - and below, regular Dominixes and battlecruisers are sufficient, and better.

Roams from WH to null?
Battleships on roams? Seriously? Good luck with that, I will stick to HACs and Logi, thanks.

Solo Daytriping into C3-C4 WH space from K-space?
Repping your sentry drones with small reppers and ninjaing loot? Trying to rep geckos and failing cause small rep range is like 10km? Horrible capacitor comes in for the win! No spider cap chain - no repping on this ship, plain and simple. So this is out too.

The ONLY use for this ship is a brick-tanked instant mobile depot/cyno/bait for dread/super-capital fleets in null-sec.

Which is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in wormholes, and everywhere else.

Sorry Fozzie, much as you like this ship, its garbage. Absolute, horrible, garbage. Visually, and role-wise.

Stop trying to fix what cant be fixed; take it out of the game, redesign the whole thing from scratch - start with graphics redesign, then pick a combat or PvE role, and flesh it out.


Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#171 - 2014-08-12 16:39:31 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
BayneNothos wrote:
Here you go peeps. Go grab three of these and an all cap xfer Guardian. Set up large xfers into the Guardian. Guardian xfers back out into the Nestors and enjoy having the equivalent of eight Guardians worth of rep. Will be good to see how far down in price these come. I've always wanted one but couldn't justify it at current costs.

Note: Is allergic to dreadnoughts.

[Nestor, Nestor fit]

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Micro Jump Drive
ECCM - Magnetometric II
ECCM - Magnetometric II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II

Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Targeting System Subcontroller I


This guy gets it, but there are ways to do it with out needing the guardian to cap transfer it.

Two hints:
Large Egress port maximizer rigs
Talisman implants

However, in general you are on the right track, I mean that fit needs a good bit of work, but you're in the right frame of mind. I can't believe no one understands how powerful a 50% bonus to remote repair amount really is. It's quite possibly one of the most overpowered ship bonuses in the game. And it has a 4% resist bonus? Damnnnnnn.

This has been your friendly CSM pvp representative, stopping in with advice.

All very well and good, but that's just as true now as it is with the proposed hyperion changes. So let's ask the easy questions (cause that's what I'm good at) : Why aren't people already doing this?

Simple Answer: because an archon does it better (and humorously enough - the archon hull is currently cheaper than the nestor, though I am obviously ignoring fittings).

The Nestor is currently sitting at 1.3-1.4 bil. Maybe, maybe with these changes it will go down to 1 bil. I doubt it, but w/e. And even than, it still won't be used in that price bracket.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2014-08-12 16:43:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.


Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.

For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#173 - 2014-08-12 16:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
baltec1 wrote:


Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.

Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?

Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:


Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.

The nestor is actually terrible in that role, an archon does it better in every way: tank, cap, rep, dps, jump drive, cost effectiveness.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#174 - 2014-08-12 16:48:49 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.


Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.

For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better.


Any roaming fleet from frigate up.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#175 - 2014-08-12 16:51:36 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Serious question: Do you really see yourself using one of these if the price goes down to 1 bil (before fittings)? Why wouldn't you just use an archon?


Carriers cant roam, cant use gates, cant warp quickly or do any of the other things a subcap can.
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Also keep in mind, it won't go below a billion anytime soon. Even going down to a bil is rather extreme as both the astero and the stratios would need to fall in price by about 25-30% as well to make billion isk nestors a viable option for LP/nexus chip conversion.


Give it a few months and if CCPs maths is right it should land around the same price as a vindi.
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2014-08-12 16:52:13 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
1) Redesign visual look COMPLETELY.

Nestor is beautiful. Leave its looks alone.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#177 - 2014-08-12 16:53:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.


Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.

For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better.


Any roaming fleet from frigate up.

I'm sure your frig pilots will enjoy waiting an extra minute on each gate, every gate for your nestor to catch up. Lol
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#178 - 2014-08-12 16:54:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.


Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.

For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better.


Any roaming fleet from frigate up.


With 20km rep range? And alignment time of 10s? And warp speed of 2.5 AU? Thats funny, especially in frigate roams. I will always take guardians/scimis over this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#179 - 2014-08-12 17:01:21 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.


Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.

For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better.


Any roaming fleet from frigate up.

I'm sure your frig pilots will enjoy waiting an extra minute on each gate, every gate for your nestor to catch up. Lol


I currently fly megathrons in harpy fleets and keep up just fine.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2014-08-12 17:03:22 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its a support battleship and a damn good one at that. The only issue with it is the cost which will hopefully be fixed with the new drop rate.


Yeah, for your dreadnaught / super-capital fleets maybe.

For everyone else, its useless because guardian/dominix does it better.


Any roaming fleet from frigate up.


With 20km rep range? And alignment time of 10s? And warp speed of 2.5 AU? Thats funny, especially in frigate roams. I will always take guardians/scimis over this.


Frigate gangs keep within 10km of the FC, we have nanofibers use them, Warp speed of 5.55 will be reached by battleships. Take scimis on that roam and it only needs to get 3au warp speeds which is easy.