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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

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Mrs Sooperdudespaceman
Doomheim
#921 - 2011-12-06 18:41:43 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Mrs Sooperdudespaceman wrote:
...
If you refuse to accept that, to some people, Eve is just a game the problem is entirely yours. How am I supposed to tell if a player has a mental illness in real life and why should it even enter into my mind while playing a video game? I always assume that everyone I play with is a rational human being.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect

Quote:
It's Just a Game
Core Concept: Dissociative Imagination

By combining solipsistic introjection with the imagination, a feeling of escapism is produced – a way to throw off mundane concerns to address a specific need without having to worry about consequences. According to Suler's[1] personal discussion with lawyer Emily Finch (a criminal lawyer studying identity theft in cyberspace), Finch's observation is that people may see cyberspace as a kind of game where the normal rules of everyday interaction don't apply to them. In this way, the user is able to dissociate their online persona from the offline reality, effectively enabling that person to don that persona or shed it whenever they wish simply by logging on or off.


Being dissociative with your online persona is a kin to having multiple personalities and that is a mental health problem.

What has online identity theft got to do with video games and what thought process did you go through to think they are in the slightest bit comparable?
Cybele Lanier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#922 - 2011-12-06 18:50:40 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Another thread ruined by Tippia's twisted homo wannabe sapien logic.


Well, I read some of the thread and the arguments therein, but I think I'm going to go with the side that isn't using homophobic rhetoric. Not cool.

"You don't need luck. You need theft things and run."
Jenshae Chiroptera
#923 - 2011-12-08 10:28:18 UTC
The justification, "It is just a game" obviously applies to games. Roll

People go around doing things in games and saying that. They tell themselves "It is only what my online personality would do. I am different in real life." That is where the disassociation comes in.
Another possibility is that in real life they have a façade, which they believe is them since they want to believe they are good people. Yet, online they have the environment to truly express themselves.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gridwalker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#924 - 2011-12-08 10:38:40 UTC
Mining alone in low sec? My first thought would have been that you were bait. That aside, you're in an area known for violent PvP encounters. I would call that implied consent.

Stick to high sec if you want to minimize PvP. Better still, find a game which doesn't involve PvP.
APIKOROS
Peripheral Madness
#925 - 2011-12-08 13:27:26 UTC
Get your head around the fact that r/l people are the players in EVE and maybe both r/l and EVE will make more sense to you. Where in r/l does all of this morality exist where there is a scarcity of resources or any opportunity to get away with being evil?

Mag's
Azn Empire
#926 - 2011-12-08 18:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The justification, "It is just a game" obviously applies to games. Roll

People go around doing things in games and saying that. They tell themselves "It is only what my online personality would do. I am different in real life." That is where the disassociation comes in.
Another possibility is that in real life they have a façade, which they believe is them since they want to believe they are good people. Yet, online they have the environment to truly express themselves.
Yes the term 'it's just a game' does apply to games, but that Wiki quote does not and no amount of cherry picking will change that fact.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#927 - 2011-12-08 18:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Quote:
The core concept of the online disinhibition effect refers to a loosening (or complete abandonment) of social restrictions and inhibitions that would otherwise be present in normal face-to-face interaction during interactions with others on the Internet.

Because of the loss of inhibition, some users may exhibit benign tendencies; people may become more affectionate, more willing to open up to others, less guarded about their emotions and may speak to others about what they are feeling in an attempt to achieve emotional catharsis.

With respect to bad behavior, users on the Internet can frequently do or say as they wish without fear of any kind of meaningful reprisal



It's because at heart, floating human garbage plays eve, and this is what happens when you let them do whatever they want without law or consequence. It is not a mystery, it is pretty much academic why people behave this way on the internet. They would behave this way in real life too if there were no penalty or consequence for their behavior.


Anyone else who says diff is either diluted, delusional or just plain fooling themselves.
You are god's "special little creatures"

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#928 - 2011-12-08 18:41:58 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The justification, "It is just a game" obviously applies to games. Roll

People go around doing things in games and saying that. They tell themselves "It is only what my online personality would do. I am different in real life." That is where the disassociation comes in.
Another possibility is that in real life they have a façade, which they believe is them since they want to believe they are good people. Yet, online they have the environment to truly express themselves.



You're right, EVE is not a game. EVE is srs bsns.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
ThatOleSerpent
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#929 - 2011-12-08 18:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ThatOleSerpent
Yo, leave our integrity at log in? dude are you smoked? this is a video game, a little hobby on the side. podding bitches is fun, and low sec mining is ********. killing people is an awesome recruitment method, and if your stupid enough to mine alone in low sec, outlaw space, your stupid enough to die. To presume that in game behavior implies malevolence or evil wickedness is ridiculous.
what are you some kind of intergalactic homo?


That censored part was the word " R -E_ T_A-R_D-E-D"


oh yea, i read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect

and no where in there does it talk about evil intentions or deeds, just some people crying about bullying and how people use the internet as a conduit for codependency

T.F.B.F.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#930 - 2011-12-09 00:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
ThatOleSerpent wrote:
Yo, leave our integrity at log in? dude are you smoked? this is a video game, a little hobby on the side. podding bitches is fun, and low sec mining is ********. killing people is an awesome recruitment method, and if your stupid enough to mine alone in low sec, outlaw space, your stupid enough to die. To presume that in game behavior implies malevolence or evil wickedness is ridiculous.
what are you some kind of intergalactic homo?


That censored part was the word " R -E_ T_A-R_D-E-D"


oh yea, i read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect

and no where in there does it talk about evil intentions or deeds, just some people crying about bullying and how people use the internet as a conduit for codependency




The first question is, what is the worth of an opinion that concludes with the words "what are you some kind of intergalactic homo?" Yea... not allot.




After that, all else can be explained by your pea brained reading comprehension. Good thing EVE is a point and click game, yea? Else you could get very easily confused.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Jenshae Chiroptera
#931 - 2011-12-09 00:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Aiwha wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The justification, "It is just a game" obviously applies to games. Roll

People go around doing things in games and saying that. They tell themselves "It is only what my online personality would do. I am different in real life." That is where the disassociation comes in.
Another possibility is that in real life they have a façade, which they believe is them since they want to believe they are good people. Yet, online they have the environment to truly express themselves.



You're right, EVE is not a game. EVE is srs bsns.


... and yet I still manage to have fun without back stabbing people ... strange that. EVE gives you choices and so many chose to bully, lie, cheat and steal. It isn't even as though it takes more effort to gain ISK via other methods and you can end up with friends that you can trust instead of being paranoid while you wait for the prize to be big enough for one of your "cool" friends to betray you.

There is nothing great in beating those weaker than you. If you find that fun, then we know what you are.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
ThaMa Gebir
Penumbra Institute
#932 - 2011-12-09 00:31:27 UTC
Didn't we have this thread about 2-3 years ago in the old forums?

Something like "Anatomy of a psycho" or something?

The Dude that was complaining was some kind of rector in a parish near some city in England or such and simply could not understand that it was not his place to point out to everyone that his morals are to be followed by everyone.

Basically he ended up as ripley might have done so if she didn't have the flame thrower in Aliens when rescuing newt...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#933 - 2011-12-09 01:43:58 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The justification, "It is just a game" obviously applies to games. Roll

People go around doing things in games and saying that. They tell themselves "It is only what my online personality would do. I am different in real life." That is where the disassociation comes in.
Another possibility is that in real life they have a façade, which they believe is them since they want to believe they are good people. Yet, online they have the environment to truly express themselves.



You're right, EVE is not a game. EVE is srs bsns.


... and yet I still manage to have fun without back stabbing people ... strange that. EVE gives you choices and so many chose to bully, lie, cheat and steal. It isn't even as though it takes more effort to gain ISK via other methods and you can end up with friends that you can trust instead of being paranoid while you wait for the prize to be big enough for one of your "cool" friends to betray you.

There is nothing great in beating those weaker than you. If you find that fun, then we know what you are.
What's strange about it? Eve is after all a sandbox, you play how you play within rules, design and mechanics built into the game by CCP. Why should you dictate how people should play? CCP even endorse the playing style, you so vehemently berate.

The only difference is most of us know it is an actual bona fide game, whereas you and others in this thread seem to be confusing it with real life.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#934 - 2011-12-09 01:53:16 UTC
I have nothing against pirates and many are perfectly decent people irl. (Mynxee, for example.)

Griefers and scammers are invariably sociopaths irl. They can (and often do) try to justify/rationalize it all they want, but they're not fooling anyone.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#935 - 2011-12-09 02:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Mag's wrote:

The only difference is most of us know it is an actual bona fide game, whereas you and others in this thread seem to be confusing it with real life.



A psychological experiment is neither real life, nor is it a mere game. But ofc your are too small/closed minded to understand something like that, amiright?


Do you know that RL economists study EVE's economy to see if they can apply what they learn here into a RL stock market? Similarly, MMO's in general provide an exquisite insight into the human Psyche. If people like you can't grasp this simple concept, then it is because you are inept... it is not because it's not factual.



Signed,
Your mental superior.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Jenshae Chiroptera
#936 - 2011-12-09 03:34:34 UTC
Mag's wrote:
... Why should you dictate how people should play? ...


I don't as that isn't possible.
I believe that the people who do get pleasure out of being scum bags are either suffering from disassociative mental disorders or their real life outward persona is a façade.
What I dislike is not that it occurs but that it happens so frequently by so many people. It makes me wonder if the whole of civilisation is just a thin veneer weighing off self interest with consequences.

Speaking of which, there are not enough consequences in EVE. People can just leave corp, alliances, join NPC corps or swop over to alternative characters or accounts, which you don't know about. Thus, they can get away with all their bad behaviour.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Sanguine Belroth
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#937 - 2011-12-09 04:48:51 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Huehuehue wrote:
I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.

It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. You don't see people saying "well he shouldn't whine it's part of the life" if a guy wanders in bad part of the town and gets beat up do you? How would like it if I came up to you and beat you up, afterwards saying "hey don't get mad, god (aka the lead dev of life ;) ) made this possible so it's cool!". You don't see theist go around saying **** like that do you?

It's so easy to be an ******* to people when you both are anonymous and it's never going to get back you. What marks a real good and moral person is his ability sympathize with others regardless of the fact who and where the other person is. "It's part of the game" is just really really bad excuse for behaving like an ******* and makes me wonder if these people are just as bad irl, or do express their inner ******* online because they don't have the balls to do it irl? I know I'd much rather just say hi to that lonely miner than blow him to pieces just because.



Yeah I don't leave my morality at the door, all my characters are moral. I even tried to make an alt a pirate once doing the dozen cheap rifters thing, but I just couldn't get into the idea of zapping people for no reason, or just for loot. That character ended up being "good" at the end too, and remorseful for her earlier crimes Lol

I do consider my inability to play evil characters to be a bit of a character flaw though. I should be able to, but I just can't, which denotes some kind of inflexibility in me, I think. Or maybe I just want to be loved.

It is a game, and the point is to be able to be what you wanna be in it, if you wanna be evil, you can. It's fun in a game precisely because you don't, and wouldn't, do that stuff in real life. You get to explore the dark side like you never could, or would, in real life.



You know what your problem was - empathy.

See, games are about overcoming an imaginary obstacle. Its a process that everyone buys into. I have no problem with Pirates in 0.0 and low sec. But I do have a real problem with corp thieves. The concept of honour is an important one. A long time ago, before the world numbered billions of people and enabled easy travel. A persons honour was important and valuable.

Now people don't give a ****, cause there are no repercussions. Burn one bridge, move on.
You must remember, you are dealing with other human beings, this is a virtual reality. But the life we live in is equally so. We perceive our reality through our senses. Just as we cannot disprove god, we cannot disprove that we are not living in a simulated world.

Just because there are no repercussions, doesn't mean you shouldn't treat others with respect, and value your personal integrity.
I find this rather alarming, that some religious people believe god to be the root of morality. That if it weren't for the fear of judgment in death - does this mean they would lie cheat and steal (and worse?) if they could get away with it?

We need a reputation system in this game. Something more advanced than the "like" system on the boards. Game Theory is a very well developed science - its all already there. I don't think eve should become a WOW happy fun time clone. Let the possibilities remain, but make us able to identify and exclude people who want to be bastards.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#938 - 2011-12-09 05:23:49 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:


Griefers and scammers are invariably sociopaths irl. They can (and often do) try to justify/rationalize it all they want, but they're not fooling anyone.


I guess I can't argue against a armchair psychologist such as yourself.

But if I am brutally honest with you and being somewhat of a humble armchair psychologist myself at times, I am more concerned with the people that draws parallels between griefing and scamming in a game to sociopaths in reality. It is a frightening realization that so many hide behind a facade of understanding, empathy and sympathy when these people are suffering from a deep-rooted psychosis.

The very inability that makes you (among many) unable to distinguish reality from fantasy frankly speaks for itself.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
X ChaosX
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#939 - 2011-12-09 05:42:54 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
I play EVE to "escape" from real life just as much as the next guy, but I know I bring my real life morality with me to the game, I mean how could you not? That's not something you just turn off.

You're right, it isn't something I just turn off. I just don't see beating people at video games as an immoral act. They chose to play, if they can't handle losing they can quit. You sound like a kid who would cry when his brother beat him at a video game. It isn't immoral for your brother to keep winning just because you cry when lose. You are in the wrong for crying about it, not him. Learn to lose with grace. Don't expect others to pamper your soft feelings.

Why don't you go yell at people playing FPS games? After all, shooting other people is an evil thing to do. Oh wait, it is just a game.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#940 - 2011-12-09 07:48:27 UTC
So folks need to take a step back and realize games like Eve are not Pong. What we do persists. We invest in Eve expecting that persistence. So actions have consequences that go beyond the immediate persistence of the session. So Eve is not chess, it is a board game put back in its box and under the bed once someone owns Boardwalk. What you do to someone is there when they log back in.

People play with the expectations of their successes to remain and to have real value. They invest a part of their life in a manner just like a large part of real life.

I am an artist in my spare time. I make interactive electronic art. When I am lucky my pieces get in galleries for a month or two at a time. I have never sold a piece of my work yet. If you want to buy a Zundelphone please contact me directly!! I have things in Eve I worked on as much as my art. When someone destroys something I've put effort into just for grins it is the same as if someone vandalized a piece of my work in the gallery (by the way, someone did destroy a piece of mine in my last show, probably a goon that realized the gallery was definitely "low sec").

So I've made the argument before and I will again. Eve by its persistent nature makes the stuff we collect here with our time close to or identical to stuff we spent the same amount of our time in our real lives.

Many of the things we once thought of as physical items, like music, books and movies are turning virtual. Stuff in life that we value that we no longer own in a physical manner. It doesn't take a lot of genius to see we are moving into a world where virtual and physical are identical. Eve is a place (with other persistent virtual worlds) that is pioneering that evolution.

Less enlightened folks don't get that yet. All I can say is I look forward to the day that folks that reject that notion discover they no longer own a music collection or even a bank balance because some asshat decided it would be fun to destroy their virtual assets with some technology hack. Then they might learn that we are moving to a world where real and virtual are the same and start to respect that anything that cost someone time to collect or create has value even if it only exists in a persistent virtual manner.

If you are consuming the right substances right now or spend some time contemplating the nature of self awareness and "reality", tell me how you can prove Eve is any different than what you claim is your "real life" when you can't prove anything you think you perceive is real and not an illusion or simulation.

Issler