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[Hyperion] Nestor Tweaks

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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#81 - 2014-08-11 20:07:44 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier.


Especially in highsec and lowclass wormholes...


High sec has guardians, better rep cheaper
high sec has nuetral orcas
high sec has nuetral scanners
In fact high sec really has ships that are better at every role the nestor COULD FILL for much cheaper
Im pretty sure this ship wasnt designed with high sec in mind

and low class wormholes? Oh build a carrier its better and still cheaper


A Nestor's rep is equivalent to about 2.5 guardians.
And if you are roaming through wormholes, are you going to stop and build a carrier in each system you come across?

From there, given that this ship has the ability to refit each other. Imagine filling your cargohold with hardeners and running a domi like spider tank fleet. Now imagine that you just keep your hardeners overheated when you are getting shot, and when they burn out you simply refit to a new one. Or even keeping your reps overheated all the time.

Or if you simply used this as a standard logi for a battleship fleet, imagine that the battleships could just keep their guns overheated all the time and swap out guns that are in their cargohold.

Good luck refitting on the fly if you have to move with an Orca.

The only thing that's holding the Nestor back is the current price for it.


yea but the issue is even at 1b its STILL cheaper to bring 3 guardians, and more effective since if that your only logi its getting primaried hard because of the price tag even 2-3 of them would be Dust and Cinders to a well orgnaized fleet, it lacks the tank or sensor strength plus if it kites like guardians you cant refit so there goes a big piece of your arguement. And the hole refit piece doesnt work so well if you dont have the cargo space to carry excessive amounts of guns. Once again the orca does better at that even if its slower because it has stupid cargo space for mods and such ( also still cheaper with similar tank)

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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#82 - 2014-08-11 20:10:18 UTC
Oh and i forgot to mention Guardians are also better because they can wire you Cap too not just armor. that makes them even more invaluable than the nestor

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#83 - 2014-08-11 20:13:54 UTC
To be honest, I still can't think of a reason to use one. In almost any situation barring highsec, you could just use a carrier instead. And in highsec, you can use the far more common Orca instead.

If it cost 350mil then I could maybe see using it, but I really doubt you are going to buff the drop rate *that* drastically.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#84 - 2014-08-11 20:35:19 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:

Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP

It's a drone ship with a moderate laser bonus, not a laser ship.

progodlegend wrote:
I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.

If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.

You guys got to think outside of the box :).


Uh oh, incoming Nestor fleet.

Probably be used exactly once, just like the Goku bomber fleet... Sad

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
SwagYolo420
Rogue Inferno.
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2014-08-11 20:36:16 UTC
Scary things with nestor fleet is that they can all refit stabs and warp out.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#86 - 2014-08-11 20:41:35 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please

Being conservative with changes is exactly the way to go with their new release patterns..

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Paranoid Loyd
#87 - 2014-08-11 20:42:12 UTC
SwagYolo420 wrote:
Scary things with nestor fleet is that they can all refit stabs and warp out.


Anywhere a Nestor would actually be used a HIC can't be too far away.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#88 - 2014-08-11 20:48:20 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
interesting adding some genuine uniqueness .. what it also tells us is that Rise is far too conservative with changes .. since every change he does needs further changes later on down the line ... please give him a kick up the arse for us please

Being conservative with changes is exactly the way to go with their new release patterns..


not if it doesn't meet its end goal

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#89 - 2014-08-11 20:51:47 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
not if it doesn't meet its end goal

The Nestor is still CCP Rises's "spruce goose". This is, what - the third revision/attempt to make the Nestor relevant again?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#90 - 2014-08-11 20:56:17 UTC
can you board a ship out of the bay or will it be restricted like on the DSPs?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#91 - 2014-08-11 20:57:28 UTC
The refit ability of the Nestor is an interesting addition, and a small step forward to its usefulness. Multiplying the drop is good...

I still strongly support making the Nestor a logistics black ops ship when CCP get to rebalance the black ops...

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
colera deldios
#92 - 2014-08-11 21:03:06 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.


I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function.

Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships.
- Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer.
- Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system.
- SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay.

Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle?




(And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)


So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than:

* Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus
* Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this )
* Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers )
* Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing
* Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level

* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots
* Remove 1 High slot

Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow.

Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for.

**IF NOT PVE THAN PVP**

* Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses
* Add ability to Bridge or be bridged
* Remove Laser Bonus
* Change SMA to Fleet Hangar

This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship.


Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP



You missed the point where lasers are removed. ... Also why is it OP exactly ? Laser ships eat ton of capacitor where others not so much..
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#93 - 2014-08-11 21:08:39 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:

yea but the issue is even at 1b its STILL cheaper to bring 3 guardians, and more effective since if that your only logi its getting primaried hard because of the price tag even 2-3 of them would be Dust and Cinders to a well orgnaized fleet, it lacks the tank or sensor strength plus if it kites like guardians you cant refit so there goes a big piece of your arguement. And the hole refit piece doesnt work so well if you dont have the cargo space to carry excessive amounts of guns. Once again the orca does better at that even if its slower because it has stupid cargo space for mods and such ( also still cheaper with similar tank)


A few things in response to this.

1. You are assuming that the fleet has the numbers to field 3 guardians to every nestor.
2. The Nestors can move with the DPS. For a traditional logi setup, you would probably only look at fielding a nestor if everyone else if flying pirate hulls as well.
3. It does have more sensor strength then a guardian, that being said, it is easier to jam 1 target vs 3. But this is also assuming the fleet has the people online to field 3 guardians for every nestor.
4. Even if the fleet has 1 extra set of overheatable modules in your cargohold, that still gives your fleet the ability to overheat for twice as long as the other fleet. Plus if this is fielded in highsec, it could even be a neutral nestor just for refitting, don't even use it as a logi.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#94 - 2014-08-11 21:09:59 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.


I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function.

Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships.
- Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer.
- Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system.
- SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay.

Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle?




(And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)


So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than:

* Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus
* Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this )
* Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers )
* Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing
* Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level

* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots
* Remove 1 High slot

Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow.

Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for.

**IF NOT PVE THAN PVP**

* Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses
* Add ability to Bridge or be bridged
* Remove Laser Bonus
* Change SMA to Fleet Hangar

This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship.


Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP



You missed the point where lasers are removed. ... Also why is it OP exactly ? Laser ships eat ton of capacitor where others not so much..


Anything that is immune to nuets is OP, the point of nuets is they drain capacitor, this hits logis that cant cap chain hard, which in this build IS the nestor, if you give it immunity to nuets you have a cap stable high DPS logi that cant be nueted out to stop its reps like other logi can. plus with the refit being within a very restricted range this thing is going to be in brawling range of hostile ships, 90% of PVP ships use some form of nuet or vampire if they have utility highs.

Not even supers are immune to Nuets, the fact is nothing is there is no reason to give it nuet immunity in its current build as such

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#95 - 2014-08-11 21:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
not if it doesn't meet its end goal

The Nestor is still CCP Rises's "spruce goose". This is, what - the third revision/attempt to make the Nestor relevant again?


this will make it cheaper .. but i imagine it will do nothing for its popularity and usage .. but there isn't much else they can do with it realistically speaking ...

CCP also know this Ishtar nerf is ineffective he says just as much in the OP of the HAC thread .. but i guess they must be seen too do something .. its a stop gap nothing more and an ineffective one at that ... if they actually believe what they have said then are deluding themselves... i have proposed the easiest and most time efficient way too at least provide time for a more long term solution ...

Ishtar
10% bonus too light and medium drone damage and HP
7.5% bonus too heavy damage and HP, tracking and drone velocity
5% too sentry drone damage, tracking and optimal range
5km drone operation control range

125mbit /350 dronebay

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
CorryBasler
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#96 - 2014-08-11 21:11:50 UTC
+1 for billion isk instant mobile depots! No longer shall we wait for the mobile depot to anchor when flying supercaps, just toss out a nestor!
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#97 - 2014-08-11 21:14:50 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:

yea but the issue is even at 1b its STILL cheaper to bring 3 guardians, and more effective since if that your only logi its getting primaried hard because of the price tag even 2-3 of them would be Dust and Cinders to a well orgnaized fleet, it lacks the tank or sensor strength plus if it kites like guardians you cant refit so there goes a big piece of your arguement. And the hole refit piece doesnt work so well if you dont have the cargo space to carry excessive amounts of guns. Once again the orca does better at that even if its slower because it has stupid cargo space for mods and such ( also still cheaper with similar tank)


A few things in response to this.

1. You are assuming that the fleet has the numbers to field 3 guardians to every nestor.
2. The Nestors can move with the DPS. For a traditional logi setup, you would probably only look at fielding a nestor if everyone else if flying pirate hulls as well.
3. It does have more sensor strength then a guardian, that being said, it is easier to jam 1 target vs 3. But this is also assuming the fleet has the people online to field 3 guardians for every nestor.
4. Even if the fleet has 1 extra set of overheatable modules in your cargohold, that still gives your fleet the ability to overheat for twice as long as the other fleet. Plus if this is fielded in highsec, it could even be a neutral nestor just for refitting, don't even use it as a logi.



If your roaming battleships you should have the numbers to field 3 guardians
If everyone is flying pirate hulls you should have better logi than this thing to protect that investment
It is a lot easier to jam one than 3 yes, so why not go with 3 in case they have falcons? Plus like i said guardians can give you cap too in case your being nueted out by something.
If your refitting your in brawling range, logi in brawling range have a bad track record since they get scrammed and webbed and are easier to primary since odds are your going to be in optimal, the nestor isnt fast enough to kite AND maintain reasonable tank so that doctrine wont work here either.

Honestly sure the refit is nice, but its still way more effective to just use guardians, if you dont have the numbers just downgrade and use HAC's or switch to oneiros those dont need cap buddys

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Dimitryy
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#98 - 2014-08-11 21:30:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
And finally, we are reducing the Nestor's signature radius a bit from the current 465m to 420m.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT17-_T3FNA
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#99 - 2014-08-11 21:35:06 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:


If your roaming battleships you should have the numbers to field 3 guardians
If everyone is flying pirate hulls you should have better logi than this thing to protect that investment
It is a lot easier to jam one than 3 yes, so why not go with 3 in case they have falcons? Plus like i said guardians can give you cap too in case your being nueted out by something.
If your refitting your in brawling range, logi in brawling range have a bad track record since they get scrammed and webbed and are easier to primary since odds are your going to be in optimal, the nestor isnt fast enough to kite AND maintain reasonable tank so that doctrine wont work here either.

Honestly sure the refit is nice, but its still way more effective to just use guardians, if you dont have the numbers just downgrade and use HAC's or switch to oneiros those dont need cap buddys


Keep in mind, that if you field 3 nestors, its like fielding 9 guardians. When you start comparing them at this pace, this is why the small gangs could want to gravitate towards a nestor. Also needing to stay at range and sig tank isn't something that a Nestor needs to do because it's a battleship and not a cruiser.

Granted the guardian has the bonuses to cap xfer, which would mean the oneiros and the scimitar are useless logi as well then since they can't cap either.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#100 - 2014-08-11 21:38:40 UTC
At least these changes are steps in the right direction.

What I'd like to see is for the Nestor to become sort of an "Exploration Orca".

Drop the hacking/relic bonuses since they're useless on a ship so slow. Instead, increase the scan probe bonus.

Increase the SMA to make it big enough for an Astero or Statios (I'd love to see room for both!). Give a small fleet hangar.

Beef up the remote repair range. Maybe to 500% which still won't compete with dedicated logistics ships.

I can easily see dropping the laser bonus and giving a bonus other than the Amarr resistance bonus to keep it balanced.

Instead of the 10%/level bonus to drop hit points and damage give it a bonus to range.

Give it the damn covops cloak its mission demands. It was obviosly designed by the Sisters to operate with the Stration and Astero, so it should have this capability. Give it a long lock time after cloaking or something.

My reasoning is that I see the Nestor as a stand-off sort of command and support ship. In a group, its the designated system scanner used to determine targets for the smaller ships then jump with them to lend support while they hack and or fight. For the solo player, use it to jump around the backwaters of New Eden, in low sec, if it scans down something I teresting, the player can dock and switch to the Stratios or Astero its carrying.

Now, what would be cool is if the solo player could lock it and cloak it so it doesn't get jacked. Don't they have keys anymore in the future?

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.