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[Hyperion] Nestor Tweaks

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colera deldios
#61 - 2014-08-11 19:18:54 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.


I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function.

Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships.
- Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer.
- Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system.
- SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay.

Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle?




(And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)


So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than:

* Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus
* Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this )
* Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers )
* Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing
* Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level

* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots
* Remove 1 High slot

Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow.

Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for.

**IF NOT PVE THAN PVP**

* Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses
* Add ability to Bridge or be bridged
* Remove Laser Bonus
* Change SMA to Fleet Hangar

This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#62 - 2014-08-11 19:25:28 UTC
Even if prices on these come down its still more effective to undock a carrier than it is to field a nestor today.

Your able to refit, tank much better, rep much better, do better DPS when not in triage, and it has jump drives. And thats not to mention it can carry ships into combat bigger than an unfitted frigate. It certain cases its also much cheaper.

What the Nestor really needs is a role it can fill that makes it Worth flying, as a Black Ops if it followed the astero and stratios it could become very popular as it would be the only BLOPS with rep bonuses, perfect for dropping into cyno jammed systems where you dont have access to triage. it would be able to put out a respectable tank and some decent DPS as well making it an invaluable addition on a Black Ops Drop under those circumstances.

We all know Black Ops still need some emergency surgery and that contributes to why CCP doesn't want to throw then nestor in with them until they are fixed, but the fact of the matter no matter which way you cut it or bonus you give it theres something else that will do it better at less cost. It would SHINE as a black ops if you would just give it a chance

Try it on the test server before you do it here on tranquility that gives you all the time you need to balance it and put it in line with other Black Ops Battleships. I think you'l see that the general consensus is that it belongs as a Black Ops

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#63 - 2014-08-11 19:26:16 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.


I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function.

Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships.
- Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer.
- Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system.
- SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay.

Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle?




(And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)


So basically spend extra dev hours to make it even more useless ? Only viable change for this ship is if it's to remain this science type ship than:

* Change armour resistance bonus TO Shield resistance bonus
* Remove Remote Repair Bonus ( no use for this )
* Remove Lazer Damage Bonus ( no use for this because in WH == Neutralizers )
* Add immunity to Energy Neutralizing
* Add shield recharge rate by 5% per level

* Remove 2 Low slot and add 2 Mid slots
* Remove 1 High slot

Explanation: Safe for Rattlesnake what we have been missing is a ship that can do Passive Tank really well. If this ship is to retain the role of being a science ship than there is an open need for it. There is a need for a proper ship for raiding Worm Hole space solo this would mean that Nestor would be able to run any WH Relic/Data site solo which by the way is already doable with other ships but only for one type of sites and it's bit slow.

Nestor could fulfil that role it can go into WH's solo Relic/Data sites while the price tag justifies the bonuses and it would make a good target one that most WH residents would plan an elaborate trap for.

**IF NOT PVE THAN PVP**

* Remove Relic/Data/Scanning Bonuses
* Add ability to Bridge or be bridged
* Remove Laser Bonus
* Change SMA to Fleet Hangar

This way it could serve as a Blops Logistic ship. Now my personal opinion is that Blops are for hot drops not brawls and thus should not need/have Logistic ships with them but if someone is willing to fork over 1.5-2b for just the hull then by all means give them a logistic blops ship.


Immunity to nuets? On a laser ship? Way too OP

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#64 - 2014-08-11 19:26:40 UTC
Will be fun to see how the refit ability affects alliance tournaments!
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#65 - 2014-08-11 19:27:31 UTC
Just covert ops it already. Gimp it in other ways, but lets finally get a covert ops battleship in the game.
SwagYolo420
Rogue Inferno.
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2014-08-11 19:27:40 UTC
Bringing the price down should have been done a lot earlier.

Allowing refits without carriers/frantically deploying and repping mobile depots is going to be interesting, especially in higher class wormholes (if you want to use this anywhere else you are doing it suboptimally).

With the number of mids it has you can use it as a logistics platform to rep guardians and screw around with remote sebo's/remote eccm.

The scan resolution on this boat is unfortunately too low to use as a logistics platform, but guardians are better for that anyway (scan res, sig, cap transfers).

Also if you bring a Nestor along with triage, 2 dreads and a fleet the carrier can too refit without mobile depots, which is nice.
progodlegend
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2014-08-11 19:28:59 UTC
I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.

If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.

You guys got to think outside of the box :).
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#68 - 2014-08-11 19:29:15 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier.


Especially in highsec and lowclass wormholes...


High sec has guardians, better rep cheaper
high sec has nuetral orcas
high sec has nuetral scanners
In fact high sec really has ships that are better at every role the nestor COULD FILL for much cheaper
Im pretty sure this ship wasnt designed with high sec in mind

and low class wormholes? Oh build a carrier its better and still cheaper

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Tiger Tesla
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-08-11 19:29:34 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
I have serious concerns about the retting capability when used in high sec wars.

You've just made station camping, and undock tomfoolery even less risky for griefers than it already was.



I have to say, while I am excited about Nestors being used more in w-space with these changes, Jayne has a very serious point about reinforcing their already common use as a high sec station game platform.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#70 - 2014-08-11 19:30:30 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Just covert ops it already. Gimp it in other ways, but lets finally get a covert ops battleship in the game.


Battleships warping cloaked would be broken, i think the idea of making it a Black Ops suits it much better in the long run so you dont get broken OP Ships or something as useless as this is in all reality.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#71 - 2014-08-11 19:30:56 UTC
Fozzie before this gets too long and you do not see it,

You may want to look at this from another angle.

First define what space you want it to be used in.

If As I believe it is wormholes, then you want to consider how it is used.

If the decision is not to fit a covert ops cloak, then the role for it is for being used in home sites, home defence, or at most one out.
Anything beyond that the visibility compromises the fleet Unless there is an overwhelming value to it.

All the changes bring some value to it in the home hole, but other ships here can do the job in a cheaper and simpler way.

So what would make it viable outside the home?
Covert ops naturally, but lets imagine that is off the table for now.

The remote rep role could work, but if you want it to be more than the plain girl at the dance, it needs to appeal More.
So Make it useful for ALL fleets, shield AND armour. Otherwise it will always be left behind and T2 logi taken instead.

The other role is as a combat hole closer, with VARIABLE mass, the minimum just too big for the mass-lite holes, but able to get involved in more fights than an orca.

Either of these roles would transform it's viability.

Please consider these either for now (best) or the next balance pass that unfortunately will be required.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-08-11 19:32:11 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
You still haven't answered the fundamental question that's been hindering the Nestor since it was proposed: Why?

I'm afraid I just don't see how adding a built-in mobile depot answers that question. It just adds another question mark to the hodge-podge of stats that is the nestor.


Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all armor resistances
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
50% bonus to Core and Combat Scanner Probe strength
10+ bonus to Relic and Data Analyzer virus strength
50% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer amount
200% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer range


So we have a turret-repping-scanning-hacking-drone boat that really doesn't work well at all, but now it comes with a mobile depot and a shuttle!


I'll reiterate what the community has been telling you for ages:
-As a logi boat it is surpassed both in practical effectiveness and in cost effectiveness by both T2 logi cruisers AND carriers.
-As a PvE boat, it cannot compete with the marauders, pirate battleships, or even most navy battleships.
-The nestor has no means of reliably navigating dangerous space by itself. This removes it from the list of viable exploration ships.
-As a pvp boat, there's no reason not to bring a t2 logi cruiser or a carrier instead.


But hey, now we can add the following bullet:
-As a mobile depot, it lacks the 48 hour reinforcement timer, but it can fit a cloak and become invisible-depot!




So, see you in 6 months in the next nestor thread? Roll
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#73 - 2014-08-11 19:33:58 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Will be fun to see how the refit ability affects alliance tournaments!



By not being allowed.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-08-11 19:44:06 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.

If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.

You guys got to think outside of the box :).

Yeah, people have been saying that for what, 9 months now? Best case scenario: it comes down in price from 1.4 billion to 1 billion, and still no one uses it.

I mean, yeah, it will be used for station games in high sec now. Yaaaaay.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#75 - 2014-08-11 19:48:05 UTC
OK to elaborate on what i think th bonuses should be if it were a Black Ops here it is:

Amarr Battleship Skill per Level:
4% Bonus to armor resistances
Gallente Battleships Skill per level
10% Bonus to Drone Hitpoints, Damage, and Repair Amount

ROLE BONUS:
300% Velocity modifier when cloaked
50% Bonus to Core and Combat Probe Strength
50% bonus to armor Repair Amount
200% Bonus to armor repair range

Note:
Can fit covert Cynosural Field Generators
No targeting delay after de-cloaking

Effectively what this does is make the nestor less effective at certain things than a Black ops
For example it CANNOT fit a bridge, leaving that to the actual Black Ops in fleet since that is their role as a T2 SHip
It has the same repair power as before, making it great for logistics on Black ops drops as i mentioned above
It moves slower cloaked than a skilled Black Ops pilot, since again the T2 should do this better
Adds drone repair amount as well since that fits with the logistic nature of its current bonuses
keeps the core strength to scanner probes up so it can help jump targets in covert gangs.

Drops the useless scan strength bonus since there is 0 point to doing relics in a battleship, even ghost sites
Does not have the inertia bonus other Black Ops do since it already is quite nimble.

This makes it great for Wormholes, Low Sec, Null Sec, and even high sec since you now have an effective stealth repair platform or brick tanked repair ship for shananeginns on undocks

Let me know what you guys think of it as i listed, read my post above for the logic behind why i think it should be a BLOPS in case you missed that.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Xavier Azabu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#76 - 2014-08-11 19:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Azabu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
...We know that some of you will be unsatisfied with the fact that we're not adding covert cloak or jump drive capabilities or some other completely new role to the Nestor with this pass. We won't rule out the possibility of future changes but we are first going to observe the results of these adjustments in Hyperion.

As always, we welcome your feedback in this thread.

Thanks
-Fozzie


Please add a covert ops cloak. Still think that this is the best idea for it. It would be a lot of fun. Nestors with Jump Drives would of course be sweet too, as people would actually use it for very unique purposes on black ops fleets.

progodlegend wrote:
I think people complaining about the Nestor having no uses are being incredibly uncreative.

If the price comes down, as with this change it should, then I can envision quite a few uses for it.

You guys got to think outside of the box :).


Even with some of the niche uses that you get with spider tanking or that energy turret range... even though it has a sexy hull... It's still a battleship and aligns and warps so slow due to the warp velocity changes. Even if the price dropped to say, the price of a PLEX - it still makes it a juicy killmail. Personally I'm just going to stick with a Domi, Myrm, VNI, or Ishtar for a lot of the same uses. And if I want to explore I'll just whip out a smaller ship that can do everything faster, dock up, and undock with a more effective combat ship than this to do whatever I was going to do.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-08-11 19:54:34 UTC
If we are going to discuss future changes to the Nestor, I must advise against a covert ops cloak. A covert jump drive suits the ship much better.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#78 - 2014-08-11 19:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
You can pay less money and get a more useful ship in the form of a carrier.


Especially in highsec and lowclass wormholes...


High sec has guardians, better rep cheaper
high sec has nuetral orcas
high sec has nuetral scanners
In fact high sec really has ships that are better at every role the nestor COULD FILL for much cheaper
Im pretty sure this ship wasnt designed with high sec in mind

and low class wormholes? Oh build a carrier its better and still cheaper


A Nestor's rep is equivalent to about 2.5 guardians.
And if you are roaming through wormholes, are you going to stop and build a carrier in each system you come across?

From there, given that this ship has the ability to refit each other. Imagine filling your cargohold with hardeners and running a domi like spider tank fleet. Now imagine that you just keep your hardeners overheated when you are getting shot, and when they burn out you simply refit to a new one. Or even keeping your reps overheated all the time.

Or if you simply used this as a standard logi for a battleship fleet, imagine that the battleships could just keep their guns overheated all the time and swap out guns that are in their cargohold.

Good luck refitting on the fly if you have to move with an Orca.

The only thing that's holding the Nestor back is the current price for it.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Heinrich Erquilenne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-08-11 19:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Heinrich Erquilenne
Increasing drop rates? Why? Do you want to kill LP farming? The SOE missions are among the last somewhat profitable LP sources. Mission running is far from being as profitable as trade, anomalies or wormhole farming to the point your proposal isn't even funny. Loot has been nerfed with reprocessing, and now, BPCs can be obtained anywhere. Awesome. Why not removing missions from the game if you despise that kind of content that much?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#80 - 2014-08-11 20:05:35 UTC
Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:
Increasing drop rates? Why? Do you want to kill LP farming? The SOE missions are among the last somewhat profitable LP sources. Mission running is far from being as profitable as trade, anomalies or wormhole farming to the point your proposal isn't even funny. Loot has been nerfed with reprocessing, and now, BPCs can be obtained anywhere. Awesome. Why not removing missions from the game if you despise that kind of content that much?


are you implying that people take a loss while mission running? that'd be really nice for highsec imo.