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EVE(L) Stabb. Remove from game? Maybe?

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Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#101 - 2014-08-08 16:07:54 UTC
Jaime Gomes wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Jaime Gomes wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
everything need a counter, points get stabs, stabs get more points.
just use more points.




Sorry thats not even................

not even what? you think that you and your friends cant outpoint a stabbed ship?
how many stabs can a frigate mount? just bring +1 frigates.
or just that everything should be an easy killmail for you?




If i am with friends there is no point in fitting multiple points in my ship. But alone are you really willing to sacrifice a mid for a second point? Unless you are 100% sure that guy is a plexer go for it! If not you don't even consider it since if the guy is there for pew pew like you he will 99% times kill you.



They have crippled their ship to avoid the fight, you have to cripple your fit if you want it. It is a form of PVP whether you like it or not, for them flying half skilled with cheap fits, no links no boosters and no back up the best way to get tears is to not fight.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#102 - 2014-08-08 19:11:48 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Mike Voidstar

I agree that you need to decide on your goal. The problem I have with the current mechanics is that if your goal is to win as much of the occupancy war as you can for your faction, then putting alts in stabbed ships is the best way to do it.


I fail to see a problem. Evasion works, nothing to see here.

If your goal is best accomplished that way, then go and do.

This is like complaining that the best way to use a screw is with a screwdriver when you would rather just hammer it in. You can, but it won't be as effective and the results are likely not what you intended.

I agree, it's stupid. If these are military installations then anyone in the militia they are attached to should not have to scan them, they should be available in the space menu that has local waypoints, asteroids, planets and stations. Some way of knowing which are under attack should be there as well, maybe highlight them in that window.

But that they should not be able to fit stabilizers is just as stupid. Not every fight need be based on tank vs. Dps.



I think we agree more than we disagree. I do not blame players for playing the game as ccp designed it, even if the design is misguided.

We just had a campaign announced on the forums and fairly well known called "burn huola." Pvpers from all 4 factions came. But we were lucky to get 100 pilots from each side to show up. Total pilots showing up in fw was less than 1000 per side. Total active pilots in Faction war..... 20,000!

Its a pve mechanic. CCP still needs to give us the intel and timer rollbacks. At that point its a different game. It becomes a pvp game.



Yes, but why should it matter?

I know there is this impression that EVE is all about PvP, but the truth is that there are more interested in the pretty lights and playing a game than being hunted, scammed, and harrased.

I am happy to see FW become more of a PvE thing and that it has evolved to frustrate the living he'll out of the more predatory segment of the playerbase. It's about time a low cost alternative PvE where the pilots don't care about their cheap ships became available. The shoe is on the other foot, usually it's the PvE guy in an expensive ship being killed by some jackwagon in a cheap destroyer-- and somehow it's their own fault despite the many ways PvE is handicapped to specialized PvP fits.

Regardless, rules may change but there is no reason for it. Fit to hunt your prey. If you are looking for a fight, the guy with 3 or 4 stabs isn't it. If you are looking for easy kills then your ship can easily afford the sacrifices needed to fit the extra points to catch them. If you are looking to defend your systems from those attacks hire a dedicated scanner and just patrol for it... Even if you don't catch them you will run them off if you are constantly dropping in on them. Hell, if the same guy can keep finding my missions all weekend in a high sec hub with 70+ people running missions it should be a snap to do the same thing in the arid wasteland of lowsec.


I think eve has lots of opportunities for pve. They do not have many quality pvp contexts. PVE you have incursions in high low and null sec. You have anomalies, missions in high low and null, sleepers in whole space, faction war missions which already provides this sort of run and hide experience for those who like it. I really don't think we need yet another pve mechanic in eve.

Its interesting that so many people who play eve can only think of pvp in terms of a hunter and some prey. They seem incapable of even thinking that 2 opposing factions might actually fight a war.

"Faction war" is supposed to be a war not pheasant hunting. If they want it to be pheasant hunting then call it "faction hunting."

But your question is a fair one. Why not have eve just full of pve? I tend to think eve should have something for everyone. Right now it does not have much for the casual pvper other than the hunting context you mention. I find hunting extremely boring and so have no interest in a game that is supposed to be virtual hunting. I think war is fascinating and would love to play a game where there is a virtual war going on. Of course I only speak for myself. Others might like hunting and might be fine if eve only offers pvp that is based on that model. I wish the devs would have eve offer more to a wider group.

Also I have all this isk from all the different pve eve offers and I really don't know what to do with it. There is nothing I would like more than to throw it at some great big faction war. But if fw is just alts rabbit plexing well, I guess I will just hold on to it a bit longer.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2014-08-08 19:31:00 UTC
Cearain wrote:


I think eve has lots of opportunities for pve. They do not have many quality pvp contexts. PVE you have incursions in high low and null sec. You have anomalies, missions in high low and null, sleepers in whole space, faction war missions which already provides this sort of run and hide experience for those who like it. I really don't think we need yet another pve mechanic in eve.

Its interesting that so many people who play eve can only think of pvp in terms of a hunter and some prey. They seem incapable of even thinking that 2 opposing factions might actually fight a war.

"Faction war" is supposed to be a war not pheasant hunting. If they want it to be pheasant hunting then call it "faction hunting."

But your question is a fair one. Why not have eve just full of pve? I tend to think eve should have something for everyone. Right now it does not have much for the casual pvper other than the hunting context you mention. I find hunting extremely boring and so have no interest in a game that is supposed to be virtual hunting. I think war is fascinating and would love to play a game where there is a virtual war going on. Of course I only speak for myself. Others might like hunting and might be fine if eve only offers pvp that is based on that model. I wish the devs would have eve offer more to a wider group.

Also I have all this isk from all the different pve eve offers and I really don't know what to do with it. There is nothing I would like more than to throw it at some great big faction war. But if fw is just alts rabbit plexing well, I guess I will just hold on to it a bit longer.


It is a war. You just somehow expect your enemy to bend over and die when he can actually try to live. If you want people to stop bailing from plexes, remove the reward for running them and only people who relly want to pvp will be in there.

Hint : there won't be anyone because no reward means nobody will bother.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#104 - 2014-08-08 20:48:12 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Cearain wrote:


I think eve has lots of opportunities for pve. They do not have many quality pvp contexts. PVE you have incursions in high low and null sec. You have anomalies, missions in high low and null, sleepers in whole space, faction war missions which already provides this sort of run and hide experience for those who like it. I really don't think we need yet another pve mechanic in eve.

Its interesting that so many people who play eve can only think of pvp in terms of a hunter and some prey. They seem incapable of even thinking that 2 opposing factions might actually fight a war.

"Faction war" is supposed to be a war not pheasant hunting. If they want it to be pheasant hunting then call it "faction hunting."

But your question is a fair one. Why not have eve just full of pve? I tend to think eve should have something for everyone. Right now it does not have much for the casual pvper other than the hunting context you mention. I find hunting extremely boring and so have no interest in a game that is supposed to be virtual hunting. I think war is fascinating and would love to play a game where there is a virtual war going on. Of course I only speak for myself. Others might like hunting and might be fine if eve only offers pvp that is based on that model. I wish the devs would have eve offer more to a wider group.

Also I have all this isk from all the different pve eve offers and I really don't know what to do with it. There is nothing I would like more than to throw it at some great big faction war. But if fw is just alts rabbit plexing well, I guess I will just hold on to it a bit longer.


It is a war. You just somehow expect your enemy to bend over and die when he can actually try to live.

If you want people to stop bailing from plexes, remove the reward for running them and only people who relly want to pvp will be in there.

Hint : there won't be anyone because no reward means nobody will bother.


Its interesting that you say that. Before inferno when we had no lp for plexing lots of people said the opposite. They said make it so we gain something from running a plex and people will fight over them.

I am happy to say I knew better. If people want to capture plexes whether for economic gain or just to win the occupancy war they will do that the most efficient way possible.

If ccp wants the occupancy war to be a pvp war they should make it so the most efficient way to win plexes is by pvp as opposed to constantly running. The 2 changes that will work toward that are 1) timer rollbacks and 2) Intel on where timers are being run. Until then fw occupancy will continue to be a game for alts.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2014-08-09 13:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Just go into an empty plex in a fast agile frigate, kill rat, move 30km away from the beacon, align to safe spot, stop. right click in space hold your mouse over warp to button and sit there watching overview... no need to even bother with dscan or warp core stabs or any of that just click the mouse when someone comes in and nothing can catch you. you can even troll them and burn away in alignment to decide if you want to take the fight or not by watching their speed and guessing at their fit.

Stabs are sometimes useful for getting through gate camps. but fk gate camps.

Thats why I think some sort of bubble would be a sane addition here. Like a "bubble" with a range of 150kms (250kms? 500kms?), and a capture zone in its center with a range like 15km. So you have to stay in the very middle of it and can't burn away and warp out the same moment someone will show up.

Edited: and make it so that warping in ships will be thrown in somewhere half the way to "bubble's" center, at a random spot. So, after warp in to the empty complex you have to sink a portion of your time while burning to the capture zone at the center (a little incentive to actually fight than run from any threat). And if someone will come in and warp straight to the complex, he have good chance to intercept you on your way to bubble's edge.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#106 - 2014-08-09 14:46:02 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Just go into an empty plex in a fast agile frigate, kill rat, move 30km away from the beacon, align to safe spot, stop. right click in space hold your mouse over warp to button and sit there watching overview... no need to even bother with dscan or warp core stabs or any of that just click the mouse when someone comes in and nothing can catch you. you can even troll them and burn away in alignment to decide if you want to take the fight or not by watching their speed and guessing at their fit.

Stabs are sometimes useful for getting through gate camps. but fk gate camps.

Thats why I think some sort of bubble would be a sane addition here. Like a "bubble" with a range of 150kms (250kms? 500kms?), and a capture zone in its center with a range like 15km. So you have to stay in the very middle of it and can't burn away and warp out the same moment someone will show up.



I think giving players intel on where plexes are being run and a form of plex timer rollback would be much better solution. The people can sit there aligned and run but they will accomplish nothing, because all the time they spent in the plex will be rolled back. And if we had intel on where plexes are being run they can no longer hide and plex. The number of plexes rabbits would be able to finish will be drastically lower than someone who just agrees to take his chances and fight it out.


The bubble idea will still leave people to hide and plex. They will just have an mwd with long range launchers. If they can't kill the enemy they will just mwd out and start another plex a few systems over. No one would need to carry a point. So the interesting pvp mechanics/fits that involve kiting inside scram range or distruptor range will go away. Pvp will be less diverse. I think this is a bit of a hamfisted idea that may actually decrease the number of explosions in plexes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2014-08-09 14:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Cearain wrote:

I think giving players intel on where plexes are being run and a form of plex timer rollback would be much better solution.

Why can't those ideas coexist? And I ninja edited my last post a little btw.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-08-09 14:59:58 UTC
Cearain wrote:

No one would need to carry a point. So the interesting pvp mechanics/fits that involve kiting inside scram range or distruptor range will go away. Pvp will be less diverse. I think this is a bit of a hamfisted idea that may actually decrease the number of explosions in plexes.

Well, this is already far from easly implementable solution, but how about that: this very special "bubble" will only keep anyone inside it from warping away untill it switched off. But when switched off it will immideately reset its capture timer. It can be switched off by anyone staying in it, but it has some resonable cooldown before it happens, like 1-5 minutes. So there is enough time to warp in and catch someone in there even if he immideately initiate switching off (but not enough to kill him), but then bubble will collapse and normal PvP mechanics will apply.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#109 - 2014-08-09 15:02:04 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I think giving players intel on where plexes are being run and a form of plex timer rollback would be much better solution.

Why can't those ideas coexist? And I ninja edited my last post a little btw.



I think they can. But I would just go with the rollbacks and intel first. That keeps normal low sec pvp mechanics in place. If they don't do the trick then perhaps a bubble idea could be used.

I just think that the type of point you use and how you use it is a big part of low sec pvp. If the problem can be addressed by less drastic measures I would rather see it done that way. But you are right there is nothing that would prevent all 3 changes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Verlyn
Black Rabbits
Black Rabbit.
#110 - 2014-08-09 15:07:13 UTC
Limit stab uses inside FW plexes

/signed
Verlyn
Black Rabbits
Black Rabbit.
#111 - 2014-08-09 15:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Verlyn
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Buhuhu, can't point.

Buhuhu, can't force another player to pvp with me.

Buhuhu, can't be bothered to fit adequately.

Ever had the thought that the person fitting stabs might not want to fight ? And you have no business being in a FW Plex if you don't want to fight ? And you are not even considering ppl that run Plexes and are bound to it visible for everyone 15+ min and ruining their invested time by jumping them ? And you are probably one of those neutral FW Griefers anyway.

Basically got no KM, nerf game for my advantage - my style of playing the game.

NO!


Ever considered that Faction WARFARE was initially meant for those who do want to fight ?

Ever considered that a plex is like a piece territory which you must FIGHT for in order to retain control over ?

Ever considered getting yourself a RL job and buying PLEX for your isk instead ?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#112 - 2014-08-10 12:09:46 UTC
Verlyn wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Buhuhu, can't point.

Buhuhu, can't force another player to pvp with me.

Buhuhu, can't be bothered to fit adequately.

Ever had the thought that the person fitting stabs might not want to fight ? And you have no business being in a FW Plex if you don't want to fight ? And you are not even considering ppl that run Plexes and are bound to it visible for everyone 15+ min and ruining their invested time by jumping them ? And you are probably one of those neutral FW Griefers anyway.

Basically got no KM, nerf game for my advantage - my style of playing the game.

NO!


Ever considered that Faction WARFARE was initially meant for those who do want to fight ?

Ever considered that a plex is like a piece territory which you must FIGHT for in order to retain control over ?

Ever considered getting yourself a RL job and buying PLEX for your isk instead ?



The thing is people "adapt or die." So many of the pvpers who used to really push for pvp solutions have been replaced with people who are perfectly content to leave faction "war" a carebear race. CCP shapes their playerbase as much as players shape eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#113 - 2014-08-10 12:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
If you want to get a 1V1 fight, trying to get one with stabbed farmers is not going to get you that.

Removing their stabs is not going to suddenly turn them into crazed PVP'rsRoll

Of course if you want easy ganks, well carry on, It would make that for sure.

Just not sure if they would be happy to hang around If CCP decided to treat them like tethered goats.What?

but I agree, Faction warfare should be about combatants fighting, Not sure where the rest of the junk came from.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#114 - 2014-08-10 12:19:43 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Removing their stabs is not going to suddenly turn them into crazed PVP'rsRoll


As usual for you, you miss the point by a mile.

The point is not to turn them into PvP players, the point is to force farmers out of the warzone entirely. For obvious reasons.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#115 - 2014-08-10 13:07:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Removing their stabs is not going to suddenly turn them into crazed PVP'rsRoll


As usual for you, you miss the point by a mile.

The point is not to turn them into PvP players, the point is to force farmers out of the warzone entirely. For obvious reasons.



You can do that... Just takes effort. Seriously, go mission in a high sec mission hub. It's not every weekend, but often enough the same guy will come into probably 3/4ths of my mission pockets and try to bait me into shooting him. If that guy can consistantly scan down mission runners in a system with 70+ people in local efficiently enough to annoy almost all of us, then the same can be done in the barren wastelands of lowsec.

They are in space, 'creating content'. The targets are there to shoot, and are not ai which charge into your guns to be slaughtered. Rather they intelligently fit themselves for evasion and consistently escape because their hunters fail to adapt and are too risk adverse to give up a bit of combat effectiveness to fit themselves for hunting their harmless prey.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2014-08-10 13:25:15 UTC
Just one point to make on this for me. The stab fitted ship has planned for evasion and the hunter has not planned sufficiently to capture the stabbed ship. In the purest sense this means the escaping stab fitted ship has 'won' the pvP encounter on their terms i.e. they didn't get killed. Works the way it's supposed to I think.
Samantha Floyd
Doomheim
#117 - 2014-08-10 20:27:10 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Well, leave the imagined authority out of it...

My FW toon is 9 months old, never has been caught, has just the basic 58K SP and I never fit any stabs on it ever. So you are saying I play the game wrong cause I don't explode for the vanity of others ? Sure, I am the one butthurt here°°

Forcing game mechanics for the laziness of some onto the rest is not good game design and luckily won´t happen here.

Cheers for your tears.

And I am still surprised to see whine threads of the like 'can't get stuff to explode' from the likes of Goons and PL ... surprises me very time. Your ignorance has soured the taste of that Waffles song for me now ... tzzz

Your war history is unsurprising.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#118 - 2014-08-10 20:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Just one point to make on this for me. The stab fitted ship has planned for evasion and the hunter has not planned sufficiently to capture the stabbed ship. In the purest sense this means the escaping stab fitted ship has 'won' the pvP encounter on their terms i.e. they didn't get killed. Works the way it's supposed to I think.



I would just make one counter-point. This is supposed to be war not rabbit hunting. War should involve both sides taking up arms against eachother, if they hope to win.

Faction war is the only war where the routed army wins. I don't think its how its supposed to work.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2014-08-10 21:19:54 UTC
You can fit a maximum of 8 Steps but you can point a ship with an infinitive number of points. Don´t see your argument that its op. Sounds more like the crying of an gatecamper.

- 1
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2014-08-10 21:31:20 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Just one point to make on this for me. The stab fitted ship has planned for evasion and the hunter has not planned sufficiently to capture the stabbed ship. In the purest sense this means the escaping stab fitted ship has 'won' the pvP encounter on their terms i.e. they didn't get killed. Works the way it's supposed to I think.



I would just make one counter-point. This is supposed to be war not rabbit hunting. War should involve both sides taking up arms against eachother, if they hope to win.

Faction war is the only war where the routed army wins. I don't think its how its supposed to work.


In war it is very often about not losing above anything else. The less mechanics that are forced in the game the better, but if CCP decided that it was an issue then they should change the orbity thing so that it acts as an interdictor buble to 10Km more than the orbit range to gather the LP. I still don't see an issue though, again I would think in war if you don't have the right force to apply in the right place at the right time then you didn't bring enough.