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Politician in drone double debacle.
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Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-08-09 08:29:54 UTC
Pieter, you handsome devil, I agree wholeheartedly with every word you just wrote, but I think perhaps stoicism is now the order of the day. It's neither necessary nor possible to persuade every Gallentean to sympathize completely with us, and this is old and fallout-battered ground we're treading now.

There are enough scars on Home. Continue to scratch at the remaining wounds and we'll wind up with more.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#42 - 2014-08-09 08:39:23 UTC
I'm somewhat unclear on how this thread about drone replica people turned into a debate about the Federation Navy and Caldari Navy actions in the most recent battle of Caldari Prime.

And this is why the Federation must be destroyed ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#43 - 2014-08-09 10:56:09 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
I'm somewhat unclear on how this thread about drone replica people turned into a debate about the Federation Navy and Caldari Navy actions in the most recent battle of Caldari Prime.

And this is why the Federation must be destroyed ?

Because when the Federation and the State are concerned, that's how everything ends up.

To be fair though, the Federations' actions caused a deep cultural wound within the vast majority of Caldari. One that the Federation continues to downplay and handwave away.

It doesn't help that the FIO and FDU cultivates rabid hatred of the State within their troops and citizens. They throw further dirt in our face with the dehumanizing way they treat State prisoners. Then they have the gaul to turn around and talk about how we are the ones who're to blame for the current state of affairs, and if we would just learn to get over it then we could all get along.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#44 - 2014-08-09 19:38:48 UTC
Part of me says down with this sort of thing,

but,

another part of me is saying up with this sort of thing OopsP

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2014-08-09 19:54:09 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
TL;DR: Choices were made, consequences happened. Coulda been better, coulda been worse, but unless someone has a time machine lying around we don't get any do-overs and have to work with what we've got.


Stitcher keeps batting me across the nose with, basically, this. It's true - we don't get do-overs and everything that's been done has been done. I can't speak for the Navy, I was just a beat cop before I became a capsuleer, but this Caldari expected nothing other than the return of Home and still wants nothing more than the return of Home. It'd be nice to hammer out an acceptable peace in Black Rise and the other warzones, but let's face it - CONCORD wanted that war and it'll probably take a lot to get them to relinquish it.

I understand why the Senate feels it can do business with Ishukone over Home, but I think they mistake the nature of that Corporation if they think Ishukone is anything other than one of the big eight. Playing nice gives them what they want, for now, so play nice they will. Their results are more than enough for them to ignore the noise coming from the Patriot Bloc over them playing nice with the Federation - Ishukone can point to their diplomatic/economic victories on Home.

I can see how you'd take the repudiation of the treaty as treachery, but whilst we're talking putting ourselves in each others shoes, imagine for a moment that we'd sent a Peace Envoy to crash a capital ship into one of your municipal capitals, and basically stolen New Caldari Prime from you in the first place. Puts a different texture on it, doesn't it?

Anyway. We can, at least, agree to keep moving forward in the direction that things are going.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2014-08-09 19:55:45 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Pieter, you handsome devil, I agree wholeheartedly with every word you just wrote, but I think perhaps stoicism is now the order of the day. It's neither necessary nor possible to persuade every Gallentean to sympathize completely with us, and this is old and fallout-battered ground we're treading now.

There are enough scars on Home. Continue to scratch at the remaining wounds and we'll wind up with more.


I wish I knew how to quit scratching this itch, Verin, I really do. If you have any advice then I'd be glad of it. Apologies to everyone else forced to sit through yet another outburst on this subject from me.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#47 - 2014-08-09 21:42:59 UTC
Extend chin. Adopt stoneface. Bottle up EVERYTHING.

Release explosively upon demand, to great effect.

It's the Civire way.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-08-09 22:18:13 UTC
One of my weaknesses - one of my many weaknesses, for I have several - is that I have a hard time lowering my hackles and backing down. I'm an arrogant son of a fedo and on an intellectual level I know it.

In my mind, I'm always in the right. In my mind, if I'm mad about something, it's because that something damn well DESERVES my being mad at it. In my mind, reasonable rules designed to keep the peace in discussion channels are an inconvenient obstacle that mean I occasionally have to accept enforced silence if I'm going to indulge in giving somebody the verbal laceration they clearly have coming to them.

Intellectually, however, I understand that I won't always be right, that my anger is not always deserved and that I have no right to flaunt the same rules that protect me. But those are itches that I have not, yet, learned how to resist scratching. I suspect that nobody has that kind of willpower - you don't quit scratching your itches overnight, kirjuun.

But the first step is mindfulness - you have to be aware of when you're repeating the old mistakes, you have to know when you're scratching an itch that should be left alone. And Winds know I know that's a difficult thing to do all by yourself. Sometimes, you need your friends to make you mindful of what you're doing so that you can start to process it.

Nobody's expected to succeed first time. You just have to make more steps in the right direction than in the wrong.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#49 - 2014-08-09 22:27:10 UTC
I'm curious. How much do you actually practice mindfulness? I meditate two hours a day and generally have to actually set mindfulness aside whenever I log into place like this to wind down and shut down the professionalism that weighs down the rest of the day.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-08-09 22:28:59 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
I'm curious. How much do you actually practice mindfulness? I meditate two hours a day and generally have to actually set mindfulness aside whenever I log into place like this to wind down and shut down the professionalism that weighs down the rest of the day.


Less than I'd like but more, I suspect, than most people do.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#51 - 2014-08-09 22:31:53 UTC
Probably the best answer anyone could have given. One day we must sit down and compare the methods we use to achieve these things. I suspect the training given to technicians may differ from where you've learned your techniques.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-08-09 22:39:50 UTC
I'm always up for learning new tricks. I've picked up quite the mixed bag from all over New Eden.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2014-08-10 05:10:25 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
One of my weaknesses - one of my many weaknesses, for I have several - is that I have a hard time lowering my hackles and backing down. I'm an arrogant son of a fedo and on an intellectual level I know it.

In my mind, I'm always in the right. In my mind, if I'm mad about something, it's because that something damn well DESERVES my being mad at it. In my mind, reasonable rules designed to keep the peace in discussion channels are an inconvenient obstacle that mean I occasionally have to accept enforced silence if I'm going to indulge in giving somebody the verbal laceration they clearly have coming to them.

Intellectually, however, I understand that I won't always be right, that my anger is not always deserved and that I have no right to flaunt the same rules that protect me. But those are itches that I have not, yet, learned how to resist scratching. I suspect that nobody has that kind of willpower - you don't quit scratching your itches overnight, kirjuun.

But the first step is mindfulness - you have to be aware of when you're repeating the old mistakes, you have to know when you're scratching an itch that should be left alone. And Winds know I know that's a difficult thing to do all by yourself. Sometimes, you need your friends to make you mindful of what you're doing so that you can start to process it.

Nobody's expected to succeed first time. You just have to make more steps in the right direction than in the wrong.


Thank you. I suspect I've never told you how much I value that friendship. It's not easy, I know, for two Civire with no link through family or work to be close that way, but being an infomorph is hard, damn it. I appreciate the help.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Utsukushi Shi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-08-10 18:35:17 UTC
You know, for someone grown in a tube you can be such a big baby sometimes Pieter.

You should really come back to Pyre. Those girls in In Exile are going easy on you and letting you get soft.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-08-10 23:24:15 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:

An attack promped by cowardly threats of violence against Gallente civilians by provist forces

Only in case of gallentean intervention, and they DID intervene, knowing about this.
This is how low gallenteans value human lives.

Claudia Osyn wrote:
preceded by an unlawful incursion into sovereign Gallente space, the attack was justified.

What was unlawful, is gallentean desire to "Exterminate all Caldari".
What was unlawful, is gallentean police, that instead of protecting Caldari from genocidal gallenteans, were beating them.
What was unlawful, is not giving our planet back after the war has ended.
What was unlawful, is attacking OUR ships on an orbit of OUR planet
What was unlawful, is occupying our planet in first place
And what was unlawful, is occupying again half of the planet, after our glorious hero Tibus Heth returned what gallentean swines stole from us, to rightful owners - Caldari people!

Only anti-human war criminals would consider this attack justified. It broke all rules of waging a war.

Claudia Osyn wrote:
It was a stupid move on the Caldari navy to move that titan closer to the planet anyway, who wouldn't bring orbital support to an engagement like that?

Stupid move is for an uneducated civilian to tell military State professionals what was stupid and what was not.
The planet was under attack of gallentean invaders, and fleet moved into position to support our troops against occupation attempt.

Claudia Osyn wrote:
The only reason that titan fell on that planet is because provists were too arrogant. They could have left the titan in high orbit knowing it was a priority target and destruction in low orbit would be a disaster.

If titan was a target, it would be destroyed on high orbit, without planetary invasion.
This is incredibly stupid to consider, that main goal was just destruction of the titan, because this is simple ignoring of all the facts, except about the titan itself.

There was a Caldari FLEET, guarding OUR planet.

And the operation begin not with attack on the titan, and not on the fleet itself, but with GROUND invasion.

Gallentean propagandists simply try to convince their stupid citizens that it was attack "only on titan", to hide their crimes against humanity.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-08-10 23:28:35 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:

The Caldari under Heth were able and willing to use the Shiigeru to inflict unimaginable suffering and destruction upon innocent people within the Luminaire, and as such were a threat that needed to be stopped. I do not believe the Federation soldiers that died to destroy the Shiigeru would regret their fate if they could speak on the matter now, and I do not think those who survived would have regretted giving their own lives as well to ensure the safety of the people they vowed to protect.


Fleet was positioned to protect the planet. It would just guard it, and only GALLENTEAN actions against them could trigger death consequences.

And those Federation soldiers, who died there, were the cause and reason of ALL the death happened there, causing deaths of Caldari and Gallente citizens alike. So, since these federals are dead now, I'll say - good riddance.

But those criminals, who staged that, are still alive.

And we must detain and execute all these monsters, who are still taking their warm seats in Senate and Federal Navy HQ.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2014-08-11 00:01:35 UTC
Utsukushi Shi wrote:
You know, for someone grown in a tube you can be such a big baby sometimes Pieter.

You should really come back to Pyre. Those girls in In Exile are going easy on you and letting you get soft.


Trying to lure me back with reminders of the good old days and After Action group showers, Utsu?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Utsukushi Shi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-08-11 02:59:29 UTC
Its just so hard to sleep these days without the lullaby of gentle sobbing after Desi would make you sleep on the couch.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2014-08-11 03:10:47 UTC
Is THAT what she told you that sobbing/gasping noise was? Cute.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#60 - 2014-08-11 06:00:44 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:

An attack promped by cowardly threats of violence against Gallente civilians by provist forces

Only in case of gallentean intervention, and they DID intervene, knowing about this.
This is how low gallenteans value human lives.

Claudia Osyn wrote:
preceded by an unlawful incursion into sovereign Gallente space, the attack was justified.

What was unlawful, is gallentean desire to "Exterminate all Caldari".
What was unlawful, is gallentean police, that instead of protecting Caldari from genocidal gallenteans, were beating them.
What was unlawful, is not giving our planet back after the war has ended.
What was unlawful, is attacking OUR ships on an orbit of OUR planet
What was unlawful, is occupying our planet in first place
And what was unlawful, is occupying again half of the planet, after our glorious hero Tibus Heth returned what gallentean swines stole from us, to rightful owners - Caldari people!

Only anti-human war criminals would consider this attack justified. It broke all rules of waging a war.

Claudia Osyn wrote:
It was a stupid move on the Caldari navy to move that titan closer to the planet anyway, who wouldn't bring orbital support to an engagement like that?

Stupid move is for an uneducated civilian to tell military State professionals what was stupid and what was not.
The planet was under attack of gallentean invaders, and fleet moved into position to support our troops against occupation attempt.

Claudia Osyn wrote:
The only reason that titan fell on that planet is because provists were too arrogant. They could have left the titan in high orbit knowing it was a priority target and destruction in low orbit would be a disaster.

If titan was a target, it would be destroyed on high orbit, without planetary invasion.
This is incredibly stupid to consider, that main goal was just destruction of the titan, because this is simple ignoring of all the facts, except about the titan itself.

There was a Caldari FLEET, guarding OUR planet.

And the operation begin not with attack on the titan, and not on the fleet itself, but with GROUND invasion.

Gallentean propagandists simply try to convince their stupid citizens that it was attack "only on titan", to hide their crimes against humanity.

Well, you seem to have an answer for everything... An answer given from a skiewed and narrow point of view. But, if you can feel justified with it then by all means, enjoy being the victim and bitterly hating everyone for the rest of your life....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.