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Black Ops Rebalance
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Thorado
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2014-06-19 17:24:48 UTC
Hello fellow space boobs

Unless I missed it somewhere else I the threads is/when will black ops ships be tweaked? I'm thinking primarily of the Sin and the way BO is used to employ Guerilla tactics. It seems the Sin can never drop its main weapon type ie. drones, in time before the target is acquired and killed. With this in mind should the Sin be more blaster orientated to make up for this type of warfare? Please discuss in depth constructively or shoot me down in flames.

All the best
Thorado
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#2 - 2014-06-19 17:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
I agree. I hate drone stealth ships. Its incredibly counter productive. Flew a redeemer for years and had similar problems, and I imagine our panther relatives feel it too. I've been waiting for the blackops rebalance for years. Now CCP is finally rebalancing stuff, but EAFs, Recons, and Blackops have yet to see any green.

*Looks shiftily at Rise and Fozzie*

Of course, Rise turned my beloved Armageddon into a b@stardized drone ship, so I don't have much hope for the Redeemer.
Hra Neuvosto
Party Cat Enterprises
#3 - 2014-06-19 17:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Hra Neuvosto
+1 for Hybrid boni Sin

And redesign the Armageddon hull already! Redeemer looks lame next to stupid sexy Panthers now (and soon next to Sins as well).
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-06-19 18:12:26 UTC
I am unsure if I would like to see Black Ops as an EWar type ship (See Widow) or an Attack type (See Panther). Maybe a mix?

I could see them being like the opposite of EAS where they are long range bonuses, Force recons being a balance, and Black Ops being up in your face strong bonuses.

But things like the Keres make it hard where they already provide extremely powerful bonuses (which honestly as a keres pilot i think they need to be nerfed).

Actually that might not be a bad idea in general, nerfing the range of ewar mods that are not size dependent (see neuts, which technically are a logistics mod with a negative multiplier). Making small ships be snipers and the larger more survivable ships more powerful but closer bonuses.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#5 - 2014-06-19 18:20:18 UTC
Saelem Black wrote:
I agree. I hate drone stealth ships. Its incredibly counter productive. Flew a redeemer for years and had similar problems, and I imagine our panther relatives feel it too. I've been waiting for the blackops rebalance for years. Now CCP is finally rebalancing stuff, but EAFs, Recons, and Blackops have yet to see any green.

*Looks shiftily at Rise and Fozzie*

Of course, Rise turned my beloved Armageddon into a b@stardized drone ship, so I don't have much hope for the Redeemer.



EAF's were just rebalanced. They had their effective ECM range massively extended. The sentinel gained 30km neut range for fark's sake.

The ships that have yet to receive a balance pass in the subcapital category are: Recon Cruiser, Black Ops Battleship, Logistics and Covert Ops Frigates...both the probers and the stealth bombers.

One of the issues that exist primarily in these cloak capable ship classes is that they were designed in a vacuum. That is...they all came out in some cases years apart with distinct roles and some of that was papered over with small adjustments over time. When recons were introduced they were primarily used for titan bridging on targets...becuase cloaking and cynos. There were no Black Ops battleships to covert portal/jump with. They were also (both the force and combat variants) some of the fastest t2 cruisers with the exception of the Pilgrim which has widely been regarded as the worst of the force recons since it is the only one without a rage bonus.

The Stealth bomber was originally created with the use of cruise missiles that were hyper precise. I remember in my manticore dunking 6 t1 frigates in as many vollies. It was not able to warp covertly at first. After much discussion they were given torpedoes and allowed to warp around covertly...becoming an anti battleship platform more than any thing and an excellent ship for travel. Oh and when Black Ops BS came out they were enabled to be bridged. And thanks to CCP's terrible design on the fuel capacity of Black Ops stealth bombers became more associated with black ops than either recons or black ops themselves.

Logistics is its own thing...for another thread. If CCP were to give a balance pass to recons, black ops and at least stealth bombers they would have to give them more a sense of being a part of a family. That is reducing the impact of a recon cruiser's mass on the fuel consumption for a black ops...increasing their speed and god knows how they will change the pilgrim. The combat recons need the ability to be bridged even without a cloak.
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#6 - 2014-06-19 19:43:41 UTC
I'm curious to know when exactly you're using your Black Ops, because chances are you're not using them in their intended roles if things are dying too quickly for the Drones to be useful.

Don't get me wrong here I would like to see the Black Ops tweaked, a removal of the Drone bay entirely in-favour of some nasty Primary Weapon Damage... after all aren't they suppose to be a Battleship blend of the Stealth Bomber, Covert Ops and Fleet Recon?

In-fact what I would see in terms of Bonus' would be Weapon, E-War

Redeemer

Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Large Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret rate of fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Energy Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Sin (+1 Turret, +1 L, -1 M)

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Fall Off Range
5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Rate of Fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampening
20% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Disruptor Range

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Panther (+1 Turret, +1 M, -1 L)

Minmatar Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Ship Max Speed
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Target Painters Effectiveness
60% bonus to Stasis Webifier Optimal Range

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Widow

Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo max velocity
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal Range
30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer Strength

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

As I said, they should simply drop Drones entirely as they don't really make any sense on a Cloaked Ship anyway; and while I do like being able to move quicker while cloaked being about to use a Covert Ops would just make these more useful than simply jumping everywhere.

This would give all of these ships the potential to do ~2k DPS @ 20-25k Engagement Range, but to do so would also mean having Defensive abilities lower than a HAC ... heck even fit for pure defence (which should still be a viable option) these ships are still pretty squishy and should be at some sort of decent range.

As often you end up basically spending roughly the same as you would for a Carrier or Dreadnought, it should be just as useful to have on the Field. Marauders while still rare have a good place on the battlefield, these outside of the Widow simply haven't and even the Widow is just an expensive Rook for the most part ... so giving them a real reason to be "on field" for their E-War capabilities effectively putting them in a more unique "Capital Falcon / Stealth Bomber" position would seem to be fitting.

Sure they could be abused for "Ganking" purposes, but no more than the pirate ships that cost roughly the same to buy and fit... so there should be some serious benefits there.

The Combat Recons, adding the ability to have a Cloak similar to the Black Ops has now; and tagging it to be able to on the "Allowed to use Covert Bridge" would literally instantly fix them for me; as basically they've always felt like gimped Force Recon.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-06-19 20:33:32 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:
I'm curious to know when exactly you're using your Black Ops, because chances are you're not using them in their intended roles if things are dying too quickly for the Drones to be useful.

Don't get me wrong here I would like to see the Black Ops tweaked, a removal of the Drone bay entirely in-favour of some nasty Primary Weapon Damage... after all aren't they suppose to be a Battleship blend of the Stealth Bomber, Covert Ops and Fleet Recon?

In-fact what I would see in terms of Bonus' would be Weapon, E-War

Redeemer

Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Large Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret rate of fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Energy Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Sin (+1 Turret, +1 L, -1 M)

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Fall Off Range
5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Rate of Fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampening
20% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Disruptor Range

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Panther (+1 Turret, +1 M, -1 L)

Minmatar Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Ship Max Speed
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Target Painters Effectiveness
60% bonus to Stasis Webifier Optimal Range

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Widow

Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo max velocity
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal Range
30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer Strength

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

As I said, they should simply drop Drones entirely as they don't really make any sense on a Cloaked Ship anyway; and while I do like being able to move quicker while cloaked being about to use a Covert Ops would just make these more useful than simply jumping everywhere.

This would give all of these ships the potential to do ~2k DPS @ 20-25k Engagement Range, but to do so would also mean having Defensive abilities lower than a HAC ... heck even fit for pure defence (which should still be a viable option) these ships are still pretty squishy and should be at some sort of decent range.

As often you end up basically spending roughly the same as you would for a Carrier or Dreadnought, it should be just as useful to have on the Field. Marauders while still rare have a good place on the battlefield, these outside of the Widow simply haven't and even the Widow is just an expensive Rook for the most part ... so giving them a real reason to be "on field" for their E-War capabilities effectively putting them in a more unique "Capital Falcon / Stealth Bomber" position would seem to be fitting.

Sure they could be abused for "Ganking" purposes, but no more than the pirate ships that cost roughly the same to buy and fit... so there should be some serious benefits there.

The Combat Recons, adding the ability to have a Cloak similar to the Black Ops has now; and tagging it to be able to on the "Allowed to use Covert Bridge" would literally instantly fix them for me; as basically they've always felt like gimped Force Recon.


I like the idea of a damage bonus but I feel that 100% bonus + being able to fit a covert ops cloak seem overpowered... I think atleast 50% damage bonus should suffice, otherwise I'm all in with your post.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#8 - 2014-06-19 22:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
I posted a similar thread a few days ago and got little attention, but I'd like to see a cloaky ship with at least decent damage, even if that means glass tank. Something battleship or BC class could actually handle null sec combat sites if configured right. PVP wise, the idea of blackops to me is a platform that can apply good support damage. That is, recons and covops bridge in first to nail down targets, then the black ops arrives to drop the dps hammer. Their anemic damage and defense needs to be addressed. Their training time is ridiculous, legitimately on par with supercaps, they should at least be worth their training time. I'm not going to bother training for blackops again with this toon if they make them ewar doucheboats. (Is that a bad word?)

I'd love to see them geared toward sniping rather than EWAR. We have enough ewar. Sniping because I think it works better with larger weapons than a close range brawler. I had a Redeemer fit that could do 1k dps inside 20km, but ogre IIs were 375 of that, and I had implants. I'd rather see something that could handle a couple tachyons and do 700-800 @ 50km with no drones than a droneboat with ewar. Unfortunately with the armageddon being... converted *cough*, blackops will probably go the same way. Redeemer with neuts/drones, exacerbating the problem rather than fixing it. Here's to hoping, though. *Looks at Rise and Fozzie with pouty eyes*
Thorado
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2014-06-21 10:33:00 UTC
Great to see some interesting and diverse ideas on the BO rebalance. For me the point oaf stealth ship is to be able to get get in close to the target before launching the attack and if the attacking ships main weapon type is drone based this proves a handicap. To drop cloak target launch drones and approach web/scram means the victim will be long gone before a strike is made. Now if drones could be launched cloaked this would then be a viable option as an attack strategy. Perhaps black ops drones would be employed that remained cloaked until 5 km from target at this point decloaking both the drones and the BO ship simultaneously. The balance to this mode of attack would be to limit the targeting/weapon range as well as a drone control range penalty limiting their range to 20km. I like the idea of a gunnery/missile bonus where weapon high slots are restricted.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-06-21 14:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Is definitely like to see all the damage rolled into the ships primary weapon system. Something I think would be interesting is an overheat damage bonus for that same weapon as well. Can't use it consistently but perfect for that one attack.

Also like to SE the EWAR bonuses added to the other ships as well.

E: also maybe a MJD bonus similar to marauders?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#11 - 2014-06-21 16:34:17 UTC
I like the suggestion to make them heavy DPS with secondary e-war, but they do not need a covert ops cloak.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jason Pareka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-08-09 21:05:00 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:
I'm curious to know when exactly you're using your Black Ops, because chances are you're not using them in their intended roles if things are dying too quickly for the Drones to be useful.

Don't get me wrong here I would like to see the Black Ops tweaked, a removal of the Drone bay entirely in-favour of some nasty Primary Weapon Damage... after all aren't they suppose to be a Battleship blend of the Stealth Bomber, Covert Ops and Fleet Recon?

In-fact what I would see in terms of Bonus' would be Weapon, E-War

Redeemer

Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Large Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret rate of fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Energy Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Sin (+1 Turret, +1 L, -1 M)

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Fall Off Range
5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Rate of Fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampening
20% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Disruptor Range

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Panther (+1 Turret, +1 M, -1 L)

Minmatar Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Ship Max Speed
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Target Painters Effectiveness
60% bonus to Stasis Webifier Optimal Range

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

Widow

Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo max velocity
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal Range
30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer Strength

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Damage
· Can fit Covert Ops Cloak, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
· Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
· No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

As I said, they should simply drop Drones entirely as they don't really make any sense on a Cloaked Ship anyway; and while I do like being able to move quicker while cloaked being about to use a Covert Ops would just make these more useful than simply jumping everywhere.

This would give all of these ships the potential to do ~2k DPS @ 20-25k Engagement Range, but to do so would also mean having Defensive abilities lower than a HAC ... heck even fit for pure defence (which should still be a viable option) these ships are still pretty squishy and should be at some sort of decent range.

As often you end up basically spending roughly the same as you would for a Carrier or Dreadnought, it should be just as useful to have on the Field. Marauders while still rare have a good place on the battlefield, these outside of the Widow simply haven't and even the Widow is just an expensive Rook for the most part ... so giving them a real reason to be "on field" for their E-War capabilities effectively putting them in a more unique "Capital Falcon / Stealth Bomber" position would seem to be fitting.

Sure they could be abused for "Ganking" purposes, but no more than the pirate ships that cost roughly the same to buy and fit... so there should be some serious benefits there.

The Combat Recons, adding the ability to have a Cloak similar to the Black Ops has now; and tagging it to be able to on the "Allowed to use Covert Bridge" would literally instantly fix them for me; as basically they've always felt like gimped Force Recon.


I like this idea but i don't think they need the 100% damage bonus they should remain fleet ships and with this most of them would be able to drop solo so long as you had a cyno alt also i don't feel they need the Cov ops cloak there current cloak bonuses should stay as they are
Mario Putzo
#13 - 2014-08-09 21:59:02 UTC
Thats a good list but I would drop the damage bonus to 75% I think, as well as retain the current cloak bonuses without a cov ops cloak. I would also love to see the Nestor redesigned to fit as a Black Ops Logi. One can dream.
Jason Pareka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-08-09 22:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Pareka
Mario Putzo wrote:
Thats a good list but I would drop the damage bonus to 75% I think, as well as retain the current cloak bonuses without a cov ops cloak. I would also love to see the Nestor redesigned to fit as a Black Ops Logi. One can dream.


That would be great and it would be worth the price tag finally and i could use mine for more then just a station shiny.

However i'm not sure how others would feel if it became black ops either it would have to be exempt from the skill training or become the hardest faction ship to get into.

The sin could drop the warp scam bonus (from the list above) and be given a logi bonus (most sin i see are used in this role anyway)
the scramming will most likely be left to the cyno guy
Mario Putzo
#15 - 2014-08-10 02:59:36 UTC
Jason Pareka wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Thats a good list but I would drop the damage bonus to 75% I think, as well as retain the current cloak bonuses without a cov ops cloak. I would also love to see the Nestor redesigned to fit as a Black Ops Logi. One can dream.


That would be great and it would be worth the price tag finally and i could use mine for more then just a station shiny.

However i'm not sure how others would feel if it became black ops either it would have to be exempt from the skill training or become the hardest faction ship to get into.


I was thinking it keeping the training requirements as is, and keep the jump portal generator and jump drive restricted behind requiring the skills trained to use them. I think this is the most even way to facilitate the ships introduction. In the meantime if molded into a pure logistics ship (No Drone Bay*) it could still serve utility, unlike its current situation.

* I say no drone bay because I want to see the space converted into a slightly larger cargohold, a medium ore bay, and a smaller fuel bay, I see a secondary "non combat" role for this ship in the form of a black ops mining support ship. Something that can bridge Prospectors and then provide an ore hold and support which I think could expand ninja mining and related PVE/PVP endeavors.
Jason Pareka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-08-10 03:33:14 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Jason Pareka wrote:



I was thinking it keeping the training requirements as is, and keep the jump portal generator and jump drive restricted behind requiring the skills trained to use them. I think this is the most even way to facilitate the ships introduction. In the meantime if molded into a pure logistics ship (No Drone Bay*) it could still serve utility, unlike its current situation.

* I say no drone bay because I want to see the space converted into a slightly larger cargohold, a medium ore bay, and a smaller fuel bay, I see a secondary "non combat" role for this ship in the form of a black ops mining support ship. Something that can bridge Prospectors and then provide an ore hold and support which I think could expand ninja mining and related PVE/PVP endeavors.


this would be a good way to go about it but i'm not sure if the code is there to restrict the jump drive and not the ship (if they can great)

The idea of this also being able to help out with cov op mining would be a cool role but i think ppl would still op for the ECM scorp to do this so there would need to be another incentive.

only one i can think of is a reduction in bridging expedition frigates but this could lead to some bad things down the rode