Assembly Hall

You missed the most important point while quoting Yes, this is a game, but I repeat again: most people just don't percieve a game in which you have zero change of winnig (like in a typical situations happen under rules of current mechanics I've descried in my previous post) as fun enough to play, they just don't want to waste their time. Because a time is a very limited resource - the most limited resource, I would say. And this is especially so for Eve with its older-than-average playerbase. If I know for shure that I can't protect my ship in any way possible against this one 100% cloaked hotdropper staying in my local for days aside from stop playing at all, why shoud I even spend my precious time trying to do anything? What will I achieve? I will be granted, all expenses accounted for, with the same income I could get running lv4 in highs, but I will have to spend much, much more time on most boring things Eve can offer - logistics and mindnumbing clickfest implied by buying and assembling new ships. Moreover, as I need isks for any my activities in Eve, I need to earn them somehow. And I can't do it reliably in nulls because of afk cloakers have upper hand in our contest, forcing me to spent more and more time on recovering from these losses, both spent on logistics and earning additional isks, forcing me to effectively run in circles while filling someone's KB, so I again have to switch back to do it in empire space, or just to drop from game for some time (I don't count plex buying as source of ingame income, sorry) as I could do many other fun things either in different regions of space, or in other games, or IRL, and I will.

You have fun in the game when you compete and overcome some difficulties, when results somehow depend on you wise/unwise decisions. You have almost zero fun if you just being smashed every time you try to do something, unable to do anything about it. So it isn't important was your decisions correct or not, you just lose your ship and penalized with additional time you need to spend to recover. So only reasonable and wise decision you can make is stop playing, in the end. Or go play somewhere else.

I repeat, I saying all these from a point of view of solo player or member of small entity, as I don't like to be part of bigger ones. Those entities in most cases (because of small numbers and thefore bad tz coverage, lack of their own hotdropping forces, low level of combat preparness etc) expose zero threat for even lamest cloaked hotdroppers. And those hotdroppers perfectly aware about it, thats why they chose to hotdrop them in the first place. I only writing all these as power projection and need to find a place and means for small entities to survive in null became a hot topic recently, so I though this could be useful input, as AFK cloaking is an issue of power projection too.


In most cases PvE ship can't fight with hotdroppers. If hotdropers will think it can, they will get more people to enshure it now won't. And knowing that it's cyno equiped won't help you in cases I described - if there will appear a way to check for this, most of them will become cyno eqiped - it needs a couple of weeks to aqure all the skills needed, one month alt can be trained to be cloaked cyno-dropper. The battle between cloaker with a powerfull support and member of small entity happens before any shots fired. When shots fired it's almost always over already, for "prey" party. Thats why additional safeguards, threat indicators and tools for both parties are needed, which will allow them to compete with roughly similar chances, thus adding some sort of additional gameplay layer which takes place before cloaker will even uncloaks. The cases you are describing implies that risk comes with uncertainty wether or not some cloaker is a hotdroper. What I'm talking about is about cases when big enough entity (or player(s) with a lot of alts) can disrupt opertations in vast region of space by doing effectively nothing 90% of the time. You know for shure they are hotdroppers, and you know there is zero chance you will evade them if they want to go after you. So you stop any attempts as you don't want to engage in "thrilling" parts of Eve's gameplay involving recovery from losses, without any option, all the time.

Well, concerning my idea, I took for granted that dropping mechanichs will stay as they are, so tried to find a way for a "prey" to avoid it before it even happens and before cloaked "hunter" will be given chance to lock and point her - if she plays proactively and stays aware of surroundings.
Your approach will work too, shurely. If hotdrops will get nerfed, I mean.
But there are a couple of problems. First, what do you mean by "spool up" and "locked down"? Will the cynoing ship be totally harmless during this spool up? Will it be able lock and point, use propulsion? If it will, than how this spoolup will help if you are caught by tanked force recon vessel while flying typical ratting ship (hac/bc/bs/t3)? He will simply point you for a minute, than droppers will finish you. Second, it could be easly circumvented by an alt. Like, you first send cloacking tackler to your victim. When it gets into position, ready to uncloack and point, you either fly another character in the system, or use prepositioned one, and initiate covert cyno. The moment beacon appears or local starts spiking, tackler locks victim and she is doomed now. This approach won't help small entities to evade oppression of large ones in situations I described.

This misconception already is many years old.

No, it isn't. Nulls actually floodded with a 2 weeks old noobs doing relic sites. To get in particular region is somewhat tricker, but no, it's not even close to hard. Assuming that any real hot dropper will fly at least covops, he won't be stopped even by most tightly camped gates, if determined enough - update your clone, buy another ship, retry. But such tightly camped gates quite rare and easly visible on map statistics, so you will just find a detour. Or you will simply jump into couple wh, until you will come out <20 jmps from your destination, than fly through mostly empty SOV space. If you choose time right, like at day hours, or near the DT, nothing will stop you.

And in case of big entities, this is all you need. When you have one alt with covop cyno here, you can flood it with others anytime you want. So, logistics and getting their deceased (if any) members back to positions is a piece of cake for them, generally.

And, if you would have read discussion actually, you saw that NPC nulls were mentioned, and from perspecive of smaller entities. You hardly can control NPC nulls, do you? Especially if you are member of some small entity here. You could only evade big threats, but in current mechanics you can't do it at all, aside from stay docked/at the POS, i.e. afk cloacking hotdropper will disrupt your operations with no effort 90% of the time. Simply because you have no means to be warned about something cloacked already near you and ready to tackle, and when it uncloaked and locked you, it's already too late to do anything, and droppers start to fall from the sky. As you are member of small entity you can't have a rescue party all the time ready to save you nearby, you also don't have any dropping factilities. That constitutes the problem, and similar problems drive the SOV space to its current stagnation, on a bigger picture.

Thats why afk cloaking is a part of power projection problem and should be dealt with if CCP want to give smaller entities some place to live in nulls without joinging blue donat.

Well, you have only one - you try to post opinnions without even caring to study the topic you are postin in. Or mb have a problem with comprehending a writen text. Or just don't even intend to and came here for trolling. You choose.

It shows how laughable such "arguments" are, and always were. It takes close to zero efforts to get to any part of null space in covops if you can use map and mwd+cloack trick, period. I don't count spending 30-60 minutes jumping gates and burning out of bubles as effort significant enough.

Wormhole is a universal way to nullsecs these days. All those newbie scanners use them without second thought. You find any leading to nulls, than you just traverse semi-empty systems without any hindrances untill you get to your destination. You either don't know the game you are playing, or deliberately pretend you don't know a thing.

I'm sorry, I didn't know I was arguing with someone that used so many fallacies, Clearly from the search of forum topics has already had many people like you, complaining about afk cloaking, and clearly, no one has agreed with you.

You claim zero effort, I claim bullshit, there is no such thing as zero effort involved when you are flying such heavily nerfed vessels.

You claim mwd+cloak trick, that is not the cloak's fault, attempting to pass the blame on a symptom without attacking the cause is a tad silly, don't you think? As for you don't count jumping gates and burning out of bubbles as effort? I sure do, specially when said bubble full of drones and there is an instalocker sitting on the edge of the bubble ready to lock you so you can't recloak. Hey, I guess that is not effort either. Mmm silly me, I guess my definition of effort is different from your's.

Wormhole is a universal way to nullsec these days? According to whom? You? Clearly your experience is much greater then... You know everyone else that been saying you are wrong. Guess that's okay, you are some kind of god with god knowledge about topics that we don't understand.

Mmm, I did study the topic that is called in question. Though I fear that because my opinion doesn't agree with your own you attack me and call me a troll because... I don't agree with you, clearly my own study has result in much different opinion, or you studied different data from me, which my data says that cov-ops is... Not very easy to get into. The nerfs that a ship receives for being cov-ops able, the fact that they can't ever fit a tank.

I also studied that cloaking was also design to help people make sneak attacks, sadly because of local, whenever you enter a system everyone docks up, making you unable to get a kill... So people must sit /afk/ for days to trick people to come out so they can get that kill. Days of their time is wasted when they could be doing something else to attack a supply line.

I don't study the system? My friend, I think I understand the pains that a cloaker goes through all to well... A understanding that you seem to lack.

I'm attempting to make a point for you. A point that you don't seem to understand, and that point is that why should my gameplay get nerfed so that your gameplay can be better then mine?

Theoretically it's possible to run "6" 1000 times in a row on a dice. IRL it, like, never happens. No, ppl won't be guarding all the gates in the SOV space 24/7, it's just a game, they came here to have fun. And no camp aside from those counting dozens of ships and having enlisted pilots well trained in unclockin things will stop a covops, most of the times.


More than enough to terrorize smaller entities in NPC nulls, for example, because their members will often find yourself being alone at some time of a day, and can be easly overcomed with 2-4 those "nerfed" cloacking vessels, with blops hotdrop if needed as a support if some friend or two will try to rescue them.


No, power projection is also an ability to buy and subscribe a bunch of expendable cloaking alts (and sometimes even share accounts to extend tz coverage) using iskies from moongoo or ratting in you well defended home space, place them all around constellation and effectively disrupt any activities of any entities in said NPC nulls arn't capable to counterhotdrop you anytime, while effectively not playing those alts 90% of a time - simply because of the fact current cloaking mechanics won't penalize you for staying afk in any way. No risk, no lowered combat efficience - you can immidiately swich from tottaly afk and safed up state to fully combat capable and point a victim, than bring in others from nearest system. So the only sane decision you can make is don't even try to do anything; or join some powerblock. This leads to the same problem - large entities forming, other ppl leaving, stagnation rising.

Clearly arguing is pointless with you.

I sall leave it to this. If you wish to change cloaking, then you will have to change local as they keep each other balanced. Until local is fixed, I doubt we will ever see a change to cloaking. :) Maybe I should of lead with this one.

Actually, I kinda didn't read your last post because of you performing personal attacks, if you wish to "argue" then you should keep personal attacks out of it.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm arguing with the fact that people are demanding changes to something that doesn't need to be changed in it current state. If you wish to change Cloak, then you HAVE to change local, it really that simple. I didn't say remove it, but it must be changed if you wish to change.

Next, I argue with your claims of cloak is the cause of force projection, again, that is not true, I find that such people using such lack of information to make that claim appalling.

I've read how your cloak will be redone how you proposed, and I disagree with it.

If you are going to change something, then you are going to have to CHANGE ALL THE SYSTEMS THAT IT EFFECTS AND IS EFFECTED BY, WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT!?

I'm sorry for the all caps, but I felt that it wasn't getting through your skull, like... at all.

I am posting constructively, I'm disagreeing with your implantation or suggested change. It called constructive criticism. Look it up.

report away, just shows how immature you are.

as for your suggested system, there really no need for it.

You already can't do anything to others cloaked, saying you can is frankly stupid, and you never flown a cloaker before.

Next.

adding two modes to cyno? again why? What function? It allows you to be scanned down while having this second mode being activated? So basically why don't you just ask, covert ops ships can't use cynos, it would be so much easier, and again, you will still run into problems with people having super fast fits that you can't scan down.

So here what I say about your suggestion... It provides no value to the game, what so ever, thus it should be disgarded, it not so much as it breaks stuff, as it makes thing more un-neededly complex when asking for cloakers unable to fit a cyno would be easier to implement.

So what does it break? Covert ops ships ability to be covert ops with a cyno.

And it still doesn't fix the problem covert ops vs local, and it doesn't fix the problem of force projection. a interceptor, or speed fit ship would just fill the role instead.

So the real question is.... My trollish carebear.... What does your suggestion actually fix?

Maybe you should reread my post.