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Do you enjoy how fleets are ran?
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Grumis Talford
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-08-09 07:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumis Talford
Do you enjoy the way most of eve runs fleets?

If not what are some other ways they could be ran and still be effective?
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#2 - 2014-08-09 07:06:11 UTC
I dont particularly like the anal FCs that scream and yell and act like 12 year old prepubescent children, nor the super strict fleets. Even though the strict fleets do have an edge if people know what theyre doing.

I do like the freer and more loose fleets like Managala puts on with RvB Ganked or fleets where the people in the fleet learn and can bullshit at times.

Yet there remains the standard militaristic protocols that make good fleets run when people know their job with less chatter and bullshit that remains the hallmark of a good, efficient fleet setting.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#3 - 2014-08-09 07:06:36 UTC
IB4 nerf off-grid boosters.

Who put the goat in there?
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#4 - 2014-08-09 07:15:33 UTC
3 new columns.

Squad Leader
Wing Leader
Fleet Leader.

Who they lock moves to the top of the Overview.

Fleets become very efficient in the blink of an eye.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-08-09 07:16:55 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
I dont particularly like the anal FCs that scream and yell and act like 12 year old prepubescent children, nor the super strict fleets. Even though the strict fleets do have an edge if people know what theyre doing.

Most FCs I've flown with are nothing like you describe. Sometimes I'll encounter one that's like that. I just don't fly with those anymore.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#6 - 2014-08-09 08:30:34 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
I dont particularly like the anal FCs that scream and yell and act like 12 year old prepubescent children, nor the super strict fleets. Even though the strict fleets do have an edge if people know what theyre doing.

Most FCs I've flown with are nothing like you describe. Sometimes I'll encounter one that's like that. I just don't fly with those anymore.

Been playing since 2003 and Ive seen good and bad and then horrible over the years, really the entire gamut and yeah the crap FCs I generally dont fly with anymore.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-08-09 08:37:00 UTC
Before I got ill, I'd just started learning how to FC effectively. The most important thing, above all else, is voice communication, because if I have to type out what I want you to do, by the time I'm done typing, there's no reason to do it anymore. If you can't be on Mumble, then you're not in my fleet. That's my one and only rule. Oh, and no, you can't bring a stealth bomber unless I've specifically requested it. I've had so many RIGID newbs ask me "can I fly a stealth bomber" it got to the point where I started saying "yes, yes you can," and then awoxing them the moment they rv'd. Stealth bombers have their place, and I ******* hate them when they're out of it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
GreenSeed
#8 - 2014-08-09 11:10:22 UTC
the problem is not the FCs, the problem is the fleet system. its 11 years old, and it takes only 10 seconds of looking at it to realize it was designed before the game even existed. if you ask someone who never played eve in his life to design a fleet system, the current fleet system would be the result. at first glance it looks ok, with wings and squads and other 'cool' things... almost everything in it has some logical reason to be there, leadership positions, boosts, broadcasting tools...

the thing is,10 years later even people who have never FCed more than two alts doing mining in highsec have a huge lists of improvements and changes to make. some have slowly been making its way in, like the "flag exempt from warp", color coding, expanded watch lists, saving of naming on wigs and squads... etc.

this outdated fleet system, that for some reason has resisted any meaningful change is the main reason behind FCs losing their **** when someone misses an alignment. or goes outside of damped lock range of the logis, or doesn't move from a lead spot fast enough, etc, etc. we don't have any way of relaying that information in a clear visual way, we depend on everyone "knowing their ****".

the main issue is simple, if you have 4+ years of practice you can appreciate some of the things in the fleet system. if you are new in the game, you will hate it with passion and feel every CTA as a chore. and yes, i just did that, i played the NPE card.

a newbie flying an exequror wont play for months until they can effectively make the call to bounce off a celestial/safe to change their position on the grid, they will just get yelled at when they get caught and killed, and they wont come back.

we need tools to create not only fleet positions and roles, but also suggested fits to take them. this would make newbie gangs all the more easy to run.

we need alliance level tools IN GAME for FCs to make a shopping list before the call for the fleet is up. so that the dudes doing logistics can set up contracts.

we need to get rid of the crap contract system... -.-' and have some kind of alliance/corporate ship dispenser of some sort that industrialist can "fill up" as needed with hulls and modules and from the other end ships matching the skills of the requester came out. (following the authorization by the FC, and following his doctrine)

we need a way for FCs to "draw" in space instead of broadcasting something and having everyone mindlessly following the alignments.

we need to allow FCs to que up fleet movements and alignments.

we need ships to be able to follow predefined trajectories in space. and we need a way to relay them to other ships in the fleet.

we need to able to share intel upwards. a combat prober should be able to relay his results to the FC, then the FC can relay the warps down to the fleet.

we need a flexible fleet structure with tradeoffs. want a squadless, wingless fleet so you can take a herd of newbies in an adventure? alright, here is the deal, you get a fleet that can grow up to 50 members, all of them under the same lead. and you can assign one booster that will affect the whole fleet for every 10 members in it, but every booster can only activate one link. and lets not call this thing a fleet, lets call it a "gang". (im feeling original)

we cant really blame the people yelling at the newbies, and we cant blame the newbies either... the problem is the fleet system.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#9 - 2014-08-09 11:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Quote:
a newbie flying an exequror wont play for months until they can effectively make the call to bounce off a celestial/safe to change their position on the grid, they will just get yelled at when they get caught and killed, and they wont come back.

It takes exactly 5 seconds to learn what 'bouncing' means. Yelling at people when they fail because of ineperience is still a human error. Practice logistics on non-critical ops with those guys first, count on more experienced people when things get a bit more serious.

Quote:
we need tools to create not only fleet positions and roles, but also suggested fits to take them. this would make newbie gangs all the more easy to run.

Make corp fittings and fill in their description parameters. Explain in there how to actually fly the damn thing.

Quote:
we need alliance level tools IN GAME for FCs to make a shopping list before the call for the fleet is up. so that the dudes doing logistics can set up contracts.

Or your FC makes the purchases and sets a courier contract to a staging system.

Quote:
we need to get rid of the crap contract system... -.-' and have some kind of alliance/corporate ship dispenser of some sort that industrialist can "fill up" as needed with hulls and modules and from the other end ships matching the skills of the requester came out. (following the authorization by the FC, and following his doctrine)

Such as a combination of hangers, roles, and 'also request items from...' contracts. The only thing that truly stinks about corp roles + titles is their horrible UI and POS implementation. You do know that people with the right priviliges can move assets between corp hangers remotely via a delivery system, right?

Quote:
we need a way for FCs to "draw" in space instead of broadcasting something and having everyone mindlessly following the alignments. we need to allow FCs to que up fleet movements and alignments.

Not sure what you mean by this... care to elaborate? Sounds interesting. I personally would like a broadcast to be more of a visual aid then a miniscule icon in space. I like the idea of an action queue.
Hicksimus
Torgue
#10 - 2014-08-09 12:47:58 UTC
I find plenty of FC's are very mature though I've also noticed that Highsec/Nullsec FC's are generally more mature than Lowsec based FC's......but you'd have to be a bit off in the head or an FW player to want to be in lowsec so no surprises there!

The one thing I dislike about the majority of FCs is that they are incredibly risk averse. At one point I was flying with A4D and if they found something where we could lose most or all of the fleet in exchange for decent isk efficiency then the fight was on. Where as most other outlets have been all about taking no losses which leads to them looking to either blob somebody or to alpha an industrial ship and these folks are the most boring people to fly with and it's embarassing when they pat eachother on the back for winning a 20xt2 ship with logi versus 3xt1 ships.

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
Obunagawe
#11 - 2014-08-09 13:04:35 UTC
I believe fleets should be more along the lines of an RTS where the units cost $15 per month.
fairimear
Event Hor1zon
#12 - 2014-08-09 13:09:17 UTC
I don't like primary target calling. its not so much how fleets are ran but how eve mechanics dictate they work.
I hate the fact we all take doctrine ships. form a ball and just shoot 1 guy on the other side.

It's a core flaw in EVE's mechanics for me and where itis fun to win fleet fights and stuff in a perfect world i would love to see the brawling fleet fights of the eve trailers.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-08-09 13:52:33 UTC
fairimear wrote:
I don't like primary target calling. its not so much how fleets are ran but how eve mechanics dictate they work.
I hate the fact we all take doctrine ships. form a ball and just shoot 1 guy on the other side.

It's a core flaw in EVE's mechanics for me and where itis fun to win fleet fights and stuff in a perfect world i would love to see the brawling fleet fights of the eve trailers.

This is a problem with logi more than anything else (mechanics, as you said). They scale too well in numbers, and are frankly, a necessity to any fleet that doesn't want to get completely spanked now. Yes, the "call primary and hope it dies before reps catch" style of things really does need to be addressed.

Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
I dont particularly like the anal FCs that scream and yell and act like 12 year old prepubescent children, nor the super strict fleets. Even though the strict fleets do have an edge if people know what theyre doing.

In my experience, there are few FCs like that anymore. To be honest, I feel like we could use a few more. Newbro inexperience is one thing, but when you have the exact same morons lemming through gate after gate, aligning to the wrong stuff repeatedly, not aligning at all, etc. they either need to be yelled at, or removed from the fleet and kicked from cooms. Leave them to die a few times, and maybe they'll figure it out, because calmly explaining doesn't seem to work with some.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#14 - 2014-08-09 14:04:42 UTC
I enjoy the fleets I get into, but not many people are really willing to fleet up with me because I'm a **** and you know it.

Oh god.
Prince Kobol
#15 - 2014-08-09 14:34:29 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
fairimear wrote:
I don't like primary target calling. its not so much how fleets are ran but how eve mechanics dictate they work.
I hate the fact we all take doctrine ships. form a ball and just shoot 1 guy on the other side.

It's a core flaw in EVE's mechanics for me and where itis fun to win fleet fights and stuff in a perfect world i would love to see the brawling fleet fights of the eve trailers.

This is a problem with logi more than anything else (mechanics, as you said). They scale too well in numbers, and are frankly, a necessity to any fleet that doesn't want to get completely spanked now. Yes, the "call primary and hope it dies before reps catch" style of things really does need to be addressed.



I do agree that its crappy mechanics, actually it would of been great if CCP never introduce the concept of a logical ships.

Saying this I do not see how CCP can change this. People have become so obsessed about having tons of logi on whatever fleet they run that if you nerf them you would get so many tears and you would probably find you get less fleets because by and large people are risk adverse.

Eve without logi would actually great fun Big smile
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#16 - 2014-08-09 14:57:08 UTC
YES!

But I think we are blessed with exceptional FCs. I am looking at you loyal, Earl, DJ and everyone I forgot to list here (sorry) <3 <3 <3 (no homo)

Evil RatKid
Brea Lafail
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-08-09 15:06:38 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
the problem is not the FCs, the problem is the fleet system. its 11 years old, and it takes only 10 seconds of looking at it to realize it was designed before the game even existed.

...

we need a flexible fleet structure with tradeoffs. want a squadless, wingless fleet so you can take a herd of newbies in an adventure? alright, here is the deal, you get a fleet that can grow up to 50 members, all of them under the same lead. and you can assign one booster that will affect the whole fleet for every 10 members in it, but every booster can only activate one link. and lets not call this thing a fleet, lets call it a "gang". (im feeling original)


The fleet system got a total overhaul, like, 6 years ago. The gang you are describing is almost exactly what it used to be. They were called gangs. I'm starting to feel like I'm getting trolled.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#18 - 2014-08-09 15:45:34 UTC
FCORD had the best FCs. They could take kitchen sink fleets and somehow manage them to survive even the worst situations.
(admittedly you are in a bad situation with a kitchen sink fleet both inherently and for whatever reason you had one in the first place)

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Tweek Etimua
Noir. Militia
#19 - 2014-08-09 16:37:59 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
fairimear wrote:
I don't like primary target calling. its not so much how fleets are ran but how eve mechanics dictate they work.
I hate the fact we all take doctrine ships. form a ball and just shoot 1 guy on the other side.

It's a core flaw in EVE's mechanics for me and where itis fun to win fleet fights and stuff in a perfect world i would love to see the brawling fleet fights of the eve trailers.

This is a problem with logi more than anything else (mechanics, as you said). They scale too well in numbers, and are frankly, a necessity to any fleet that doesn't want to get completely spanked now. Yes, the "call primary and hope it dies before reps catch" style of things really does need to be addressed.



I do agree that its crappy mechanics, actually it would of been great if CCP never introduce the concept of a logical ships.

Saying this I do not see how CCP can change this. People have become so obsessed about having tons of logi on whatever fleet they run that if you nerf them you would get so many tears and you would probably find you get less fleets because by and large people are risk adverse.

Eve without logi would actually great fun Big smile



I would argue that this is not a CCP generated thing. Instead it's player generated. I have yet to see a corp try any tning else. I dont mean in their head or on papper I mean realy try it.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#20 - 2014-08-09 16:48:37 UTC
Grumis Talford wrote:
Do you enjoy the way most of eve runs fleets?



I'm fine with it. Large fleet fights are right up there with mining for how little attention you need to pay to the game. You need one ear and one hand focused on the game. That leaves a hand free for beer and pizza, an ear free for listening to the TV show you are streaming on your other monitor and your eyes free to watch that show.

Mr Epeen Cool
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