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Dev blog: Into the Known Unknowns: Wormhole Updates with Hyperion

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Moloney
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-08-07 12:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Moloney
I like many of the changes. Some better than others. Then there is the new mini WH.... See below.

Black holes is cool because they genuinely suck at the moment.

C4s getting 2nd static is fairly cool.

New mini, impossible to collapse WH???? Put down the craic pipe please :) This will cause many of the more risk averse players to simply log out as it cannot be collapsed.

WH jump spawn distance should be inverted as suggested in that comment thread. (Bigger = closer to WH, Smaller = further away)

K162 spawning is not much of a difference. Nice for PvP as I see most would try not spawn their outgoing until the last second. So fair is fair imo. Good small change.

Wolfryat & Pulsar... in fact all but the Blackhole: I do not see the point. Despite anything stated in the Wormhole Effects balance section's paragraphs, WHers have been happy to overcome all except the BH. Why change what is working?
Marox Calendale
Xynodyne
The Initiative.
#62 - 2014-08-07 13:52:30 UTC
So, the risk is getting increased...

I do enjoy the changes as a whole. It´s making Wh-Space more to a Mad-Max-Space than it is. You can still collapse your statics (even a bit harder, but not too much as I would mention) but this won´t help you, as the chance of random Wh´s is much increased. Shutdown all entrances to your system will still decrease the risk of getting hunted a little bit, but not as much as it is at the moment.

But as many others already said, if the risk is getting increased, but the reward will remain at its point, this will force people more to leave WH-Space than others to settle in.
There are already much better and easier ways to get isk than doing it in WH´s. Think of High Sec incursions or null sec ratting as an example.

Mining in WH for example is a pain in the ***, as you can be sure to loose your ship if anyone is joining your system while you´re in the belt. Barges and Exhumers (except the Skiff) do have such a long align time... And with K162 only spawning at the first jump, it is easier for PvP fleets to prepare on their side and then have the surprising moment with them.
Same with doing combat sites, except the possibility to strike back. But with the fact that doing combat sites means you´re sitting in an PvE ship, you need much more numbers to force people in PvP Ships.

Gas harvesting and doing Pi are the only possibilities to create isk which are left and which are ok as they are. But you won´t get rich of them even if you´re sitting in high class holes.

So the bottom line is: Do the changes as you mentioned, but don´t forget to give people carrots for risking their assets.
Beta Maoye
#63 - 2014-08-07 14:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Maoye
Random connection of wormholes was always a heavy deterrent on living in w-space. Is it possible to mitigate the randomness of wormholes by providing player a deployable structure that can open a wormhole from inside the w-space to a random system in k-space? Only one "artificial" wormhole can be open per system per day to prevent abusive usage.
Pixi Potts
Pixi Potts Parcel Service Inc.
#64 - 2014-08-07 19:54:15 UTC
Air Cloud wrote:
So it seems to me that You think You fixed problem?

WRONG!!!

WH space as it is now is space where small coeps can live, do somewhat PvP and do PvE in their own pace, a space where large corps wander killing everything in their path, and everything works, surely not the perfect way, but what does?
As I see CCP favours Big entities (yes You goons-and-other-nul- entities, and don't You dare to say otherwise, cause You all know im right on the point here) and they do so in WH as well it seems. Give delay to k-Space local chat for arriving from WH, im asking for 15 seconds and well see how your null space is fine (i lived in null for some time and i can say ratting in 0.0 is printing ISK much more than WHs nowadays, you have local chat, you can easilly farm 200m a day while after work, and still having time to go to bar with friends, and if someone intrudes you DOCK omg so harg and insecure).

Lets go point by point (i will also add here it applies to c5 and c6 class WH where lots people live):

1. No Plan Survives Contact with the Players: Let’s Talk About Emergence
Right, you favour big players anyway as I mentioned earlier, as to why i will explain later, You want us to mingle in big groups i can get it, but we just DON'T WANT TO!
I don't think You hate WH, You hate small groups of people mingling by their own it seems.

2. Wormhole Effect Rebalance
Here i can say Well done CCP and really well done tinkering there, also 1 but: Wolf-Rayers is totally now armour version of Pulsar, but i can live with that. Black holes inhabitable - sweet finally. That is all I can say on this part. So some NEW CONTENT HERE - GOOD STEP

3. Second Static for Class 4 Wormholes
More lively non-capital connections through W-Space, and perfect occasion for extra mid scale Pew Pew - sure why not I say, so another nice change. ALSO NEW CONTENT - ANOTHER GOOD STEP

4. More and New Randomly Spawning Wormholes
Ok so here we get to the point with problems. Lets say i have 20-30 ppl corpo in c5 and this pops up form big WH corps (I will not use names here) or since its null-connected then null ones, im screwed, lets add i live in Wolf-Rayert - they jump 50 Assault Frigs and **** capital fleet with them (AF will get to 1,4-1,8k DPS with extremly small sig radius and bonus armor hp), still numbers count and i cannot kill this connection. so 16h AFK for me. Oh or i move to some ****** K-Space right?
I don't think i need to add anything it's killing small and mid populeted holes. great job CCP.
For me here its personally 50/50 not bad idea not a great one , lets say well see how it works.

5. Mass-Based Spawn Distance after Wormhole Jumps
The best of them all.
For big WH corps bad idea - they will not have a chance to fight smaller people cause smaller corps will be too afraid to throw that capital there in small risky chance of closing the WH. So it is eleiminating any fight for them with smaller entities.
For med sized WH corps - rolling with BS class takes too long to rageroll sso we will just wait for static to disappear in 24h and if we are connected to ****** chain with nothing there we will go play ANOTHER GAME in the mean time - guess CCP just wants us to stop playing EVE no matter what.
Small WH corporations - look above... if a mid sized one is at bad spot small will just move out of WH and probably leave EVE or as i think is intended by CCP (all my friends think simillar now) move to K-Space to join bigger groups.

6. Changes to K162 Signature Appearance
Big corporations - will rage roll, scan new WH move fleet there, and finally scout enters, sfter whole 50 ppl fleet is ready to **** those 10 people ratting. Another great idea CCP. there is almost no problem with spawning as is now, cause capitals have 5 min Triage and Siege anyway...
Mid sized corporations - ok so our static finally closed after 24h waiting so until we jump through new one we are pretty much saver than before so we can finally farm... (to be ganged)
small corps - self explanatory
Similar situation as before with corp sizes. change local apperance in null while at it! No You cannot? Too much whiny null-bears compared to WH people? Oh I'm sorry I will just get in corner and die cause there is only so much people in WH and we will not be listened enough by CCP as well as those big null-coalitions (cause alliance is not enough).



So I belive i've proven my point, anyway Most of WH people are oopsed to this and only people commenting it is positive is goonswarm o0 when did You guys move back to WH? Cause from what i know last time issue were numbers You did not move high enough numbers in...

So in conclusion CCP:
ADD NEW CONTENT, DON'T JUST BREAK WORKING THINGS CAUSE YOU DIDN'T INTEND FOR THEM TO WORK AS WE MADE THEM TO. (as you said in point 1. You guys just contradict Yourselves)


Better start to pull out of WH life and go back to normal space living ,
hate to get hit by that unbreakable NerfBat again,
its getting used far too much by ccp,

WH space needs to have stations, where you can dock like any other space,


Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#65 - 2014-08-07 20:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Imiarr Timshae
Changes get a thumbs up from me.

However

"When CCP speaks about giving players the power and acting as janitors of the game we’re not just spouting marketing lines. This acceptance of player agency is right at the core of EVE’s success over the last 11+ years."

Plus talking about how emergent gameplay and saying stuff like "We are not interested in trying to squash unexpected player behavior (unless it’s an exploit that breaks the game experience for everyone else of course)." is pretty inaccurate.

It would be far more accurate for your statement to be :

"We are not interested in trying to squash unexpected player behavior (unless it’s an exploit that breaks the game experience for everyone else of course), but we are indifferent to any emergent gameplay we accidentally or unintentionally hinder or crush."

Salvaging profession with Crius.
Commercial POS research services with Crius.
POS Corporation selling with Crius.

I am sure I could come up with more examples but I don't care to right now.

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
Camladar
Iridescent Space Creatures
#66 - 2014-08-07 21:55:28 UTC
As a player who has lived in a C2 and has always liked taking small expeditions into W-space, I think all of the changes are great and will shake things up sufficiently but not too much. Although, I'm not too sure if I'm keen on the mass ejection proposition....it may work out well. Let's see what happens!
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#67 - 2014-08-08 02:05:41 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Enthropic wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
So.... you added more connections, made it harder to roll them AND added little frigate back doors to anywhere in Wh space...



yup, thats what they did.
The consequence will be significantly less PVE fleets in W-space, as it gets more dangerous to run sleeper sites with those changes, and at the same time takes a hell of a lot more time to set up a PVE op (as well as roll your static to find PVP targets).

This will result in less PvP and less activity in WHs, well done CCP


It is pretty simple.

The null sec cartels have very little control over ISK generation in wormholes, so got CCP to nerf PvE in them.
Once CCP makes further changes so the cartels can control and rent out wormhole systems, then potential ISK generation in wormhole systems will suddenly be improved.


This sounds about right. Notice the only people shouting "HTFU" are the goons in here?

As a leader of a tight-knit small corp who lived in WH's since APOC - I second this. CCP Fozzie, I like your changes as of late, but you DEFINITELY have a hard-on for Wormholes. I am guessing you NEVER lived in one, just your null experience.

Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#68 - 2014-08-08 02:12:59 UTC
Air Cloud wrote:
So it seems to me that You think You fixed problem?

WRONG!!!

Small WH corporations - look above... if a mid sized one is at bad spot small will just move out of WH and probably leave EVE or as i think is intended by CCP (all my friends think simillar now) move to K-Space to join bigger groups.

6. Changes to K162 Signature Appearance
Big corporations - will rage roll, scan new WH move fleet there, and finally scout enters, sfter whole 50 ppl fleet is ready to **** those 10 people ratting. Another great idea CCP. there is almost no problem with spawning as is now, cause capitals have 5 min Triage and Siege anyway...
Mid sized corporations - ok so our static finally closed after 24h waiting so until we jump through new one we are pretty much saver than before so we can finally farm... (to be ganged)
small corps - self explanatory
Similar situation as before with corp sizes. change local apperance in null while at it! No You cannot? Too much whiny null-bears compared to WH people? Oh I'm sorry I will just get in corner and die cause there is only so much people in WH and we will not be listened enough by CCP as well as those big null-coalitions (cause alliance is not enough).



So I belive i've proven my point, anyway Most of WH people are oopsed to this and only people commenting it is positive is goonswarm o0 when did You guys move back to WH? Cause from what i know last time issue were numbers You did not move high enough numbers in...

So in conclusion CCP:
ADD NEW CONTENT, DON'T JUST BREAK WORKING THINGS CAUSE YOU DIDN'T INTEND FOR THEM TO WORK AS WE MADE THEM TO. (as you said in point 1. You guys just contradict Yourselves)


This as well. I up-voted it, but quoting for Emphasis.

Why change the K162 CCP Fozzie?

You SAY in the beginning of your blog "Oh let me be CLEAR....I don't want to change the way wormholes are used, we love emergent game play...wahhh.....but yet you turn around and DO JUST THAT." I think you have been listening to Mittens too much.

First you guys nerfed anom spawn rates and loot tables. Then the straw that broke it for us casual players was WH mining scan changes. You pretty much HAVE to run a LARGE POS in a Wormhole. So then you nerfed fuel costs. So it costs us 500m a month to do just that. (Keep in mind that this is still no where NEAR safe.) To hold your wormhole still past a POS you have to build cap ships and have friends and bat phone them and even then, people will claim-jump you. You guys act like WH living is so EASY. It isn't FOZZIE.

We left and thought we may go back some day if it ever became worthy in an ISK/Time sense. It hasn't. And now I realize that day will never come with the TRUE attitude at CCP that WH living is not to be encouraged. Speak out one corner of your mouth and lie to us out the other all you want, we aren't dumb.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#69 - 2014-08-08 02:14:03 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Changes get a thumbs up from me.

However

"When CCP speaks about giving players the power and acting as janitors of the game we’re not just spouting marketing lines. This acceptance of player agency is right at the core of EVE’s success over the last 11+ years."

Plus talking about how emergent gameplay and saying stuff like "We are not interested in trying to squash unexpected player behavior (unless it’s an exploit that breaks the game experience for everyone else of course)." is pretty inaccurate.

It would be far more accurate for your statement to be :

"We are not interested in trying to squash unexpected player behavior (unless it’s an exploit that breaks the game experience for everyone else of course), but we are indifferent to any emergent gameplay we accidentally or unintentionally hinder or crush."

Salvaging profession with Crius.
Commercial POS research services with Crius.
POS Corporation selling with Crius.

I am sure I could come up with more examples but I don't care to right now.


And the PCU and subs keep falling........
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#70 - 2014-08-08 02:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ms Michigan
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Changes get a thumbs up from me.

However

"When CCP speaks about giving players the power and acting as janitors of the game we’re not just spouting marketing lines. This acceptance of player agency is right at the core of EVE’s success over the last 11+ years."

Plus talking about how emergent gameplay and saying stuff like "We are not interested in trying to squash unexpected player behavior (unless it’s an exploit that breaks the game experience for everyone else of course)." is pretty inaccurate.

It would be far more accurate for your statement to be :

"We are not interested in trying to squash unexpected player behavior (unless it’s an exploit that breaks the game experience for everyone else of course), but we are indifferent to any emergent gameplay we accidentally or unintentionally hinder or crush."

Salvaging profession with Crius.
Commercial POS research services with Crius.
POS Corporation selling with Crius.

I am sure I could come up with more examples but I don't care to right now.


And the PCU and subs keep falling........


YEP. Glad to see Dinsdale weighing in on this.

*Fix CRIUS POS standings. Why grind standings if not to be able to anchor a POS. People grinding standings was ALWAYS a good thing. Or buying tags and using the COSMOS system. You guys just put the last nail in that.

* Then you nailed to the cross salvaging like Dinsdale said. Salvaging took a blow YEARs ago with salvage prices, but I can live with it a little more since Cap rigs are a thing. But yeah it was KILLED with fire in Crius. What IS the role of the Noctis anyways Fozzie? You said you would rebalance that one after MTU's and never did.

* Why can't you make Alliance Bookmarks?

* Why can't you give us personal hangars for Wormholes? Like someone said, I can lock my $#@$ Chevrolet, but I can't lock my Starship? Reallly???

*Fix POS's

*Allow Jump clones in a WH if we invest in a RORQ. Risk v. Reward.

*Fix Corp interface/roles.

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE FIXED. Not messing with K162 spawning when there is NO LOCAL in a wormhole. You talk about #$@@ darn ISK printing - Look at NULLSEC. For god's sake. You act like WORMOLES ARE PRINTING PRESSES.

To CCP:

Still, "old friend!" You've managed to kill everyone else, but like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target!

You guys need to focus on what NEEDs fixing.

Oh ....and I would just like to add....NOTICE HOW FEW are commenting in this thread? Probably because NO ONE lives or cares about WH's anymore. Mission accomplished.

I am logging off. I am pissed my favorite game is dying.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-08-08 08:35:29 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

One issue not addressed... A lot of us feel that mining sites should be removed from the scan overlay and returned to being probable sites. Will we see this change anytime soon?


Bump

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Noriko Mai
#72 - 2014-08-08 16:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
Haven't seen this here yet: Known Unknowns

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#73 - 2014-08-08 19:19:33 UTC
Sweet changes.

The Tears Must Flow
Thayla Caldari
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#74 - 2014-08-08 20:39:03 UTC
I foresee smart bombing domi fleets sitting 5.1k off the frigate WH in a circle as a new form of KM whoring. Thanks CCP, I was hoping to pump up my kills. Twisted

Now the question is, will the new frigate WH's be only into W space or to/from K space as well?

I vote that if you're going to do this, make it across the board. high/low/null/wspace to any random high/low/null/wspace.

Now, with the above aforementioned method of killing frigs, please refrain from putting these WH's in noob space. My alt racked up a lot of ibis kills one day on a normal WH.

Now my wish list, which wouldn't have an extreme impact on the game, is random ice belts. Say maybe 30 though all of Wspace at all times. 4 hour spawn would end up in a different random system. If left untouched at DT, random drop into a different system. Additional site types would be nice.

My last wish is, if you're going to touch WH's at least fix the things that WH's use most, POS's. POS permissions still suck royal donkey balls. Not even sure why you have an alliance setting for modules that it doesn't apply to.

How about corp/alliance/by standings/password on each module type? What if I want a neutral guy to be able to use my compression array? You already made our hisec lab's for alliance useless, so at least give us that.
Savanna Heartilly
Third Herd
Legion of Krabs
#75 - 2014-08-09 03:50:47 UTC
way to make it hard for the little guy to run c5/c6. that is sooo typical for you ccp. make it easier for the HUGE alliances in worms while crapping on the small time corps trying to actually play the game. you want to fix something? fix Null sec. oh but wait, that would be counter productive for you. i have lost a lot of hope in this game with this patch. eve has so many legitimat issues and you ignore all of them and chose to **** with small time wormhole corps. good damn job.
Savanna Heartilly
Third Herd
Legion of Krabs
#76 - 2014-08-09 03:53:37 UTC
IMPEACH FOZZIE!
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#77 - 2014-08-09 11:56:46 UTC
It is RISK vs REWARD.

I see a lot more risk coming down the road with these changes for the whole community with no additional content creation to improve the reward side. If you do this you will have more entities leave WH space leaving less PVP content.

RISK - more open WHs means more chances you get ganked doing any sort of ISK generating or logistical work. While not entirely a bad thing, without the corresponding rewards you loose players.

REWARD - Your little graphs said it all, C6 space has very large numbers of NPC kills... so who is really generating the wealth in WH space? Is it small entities or large? How do these changes really affect each of these entities?

MItigation - large groups have the best chance of mitigating any of these proposed changes as they can perform PVE operations while guarding against threats and recover from mistakes far easier than smaller entities. I see nothing in these proposed changes that does anything to change that balance.

So rather than play with shaking up things with mechanics why not shake things up with content creation and see where players can take it. Afterall, this is initially what you did with WHs and players took the whole concept in a whole new direction. Ask yourself why? Is it because the players attracted to WH space want there own little place in the greater world that they can call home without the politics of renting that space from some tyrannical power house. WH space is about small power blocks of people that can come together and learn to trust one another. You just can't get that in Low or Null anymore.


So lets talk content and CCPs stated vision. Players should make all things: then give me content. How about sleeper modules? Call it the Sleeper pith(X) module. you get a salvage drop that with a little luck and the right skills can be turned into the BPC for some module of Meta X value that is made from sleeper salvage. The same methods we use to make subsystems and Hulls today could be used for all sorts of modules. I am not asking for some major rework, just take an existing meta range and name them with Sleeper X modules. Maybe intact loot could give you sleeper pith A, wrecked sleeper pith C. you can work out the details, I just want a little more content. Why not some factory blueprint that I can get from a sleeper data site or I can invent so I can build a better factory that can only be anchored in WH space to make T3s in? Since cirius started I have watched taxes on my T3 hull production double....so no reward there. This would help the indy base, create content, improve rewards and hopefully entice people to accept the risks of being in WH space. Day trippers could try to get these drops which would help with the PVP content aspect.

I like being in my CORP, we have fun together and I have no desire to be part of some huge alliance. I like my little corner of the world even if you have to be paranoid to survive there. But to survive you have to have more people, you have to grow and these changes are all about being really big fish in a small world. To survive we have adapted as a Corp and with these changes we will continue, I just fear that many more will simply bow out or join together so when the dust clears there will be a dozen power blocks sending frigates down uncollapseable WHs bored to death at what they find on the other end.



Marsan
#78 - 2014-08-09 17:30:37 UTC
Honestly I think you are missing 1/2 of why C4 are a deserted wasteland. The 2 major reasons are connections and horrible pvpe. Improving the connections won't increase activity in C4 that much. It will at best make them more interesting for people to pass through, and at worse drive off the current inhabitants who were there because the C4s were deserted.

The major issue with pve is that C4 sites can't be run solo without extreme fitting. This is compounded by the fact that C4 aren't more profitable than C3 or even C2 (based on isk/time). Most C4 people I know either farm a C1-3 static, or mine/gas/PI for isk. The pve in C4 either needs more rewards or to be easier. Personally I lean toward more rewards as C1-3 sites are already available for solo farming.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#79 - 2014-08-10 18:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Hello everyone,

I welcome most of the announced changes, especially the Black Hole effect getting somewhat useful, even if it creates a meta that I don't particularily enjoy. Good to know there will be a space for Condor fetishists.

On the topic of mass drag, I strongly believe that it would have an overall negative effect on WH play. I agree with most of the arguments that have already been put forward by others.

The one argument I feel the strongest about is the one saying that mass drag would transform WHs into gates. I am quite new to WH space, after spending over a year in FW and the one thing I enjoy the most about the WH meta, is how brawly it is. With everything landing in a 7km radius, it's one of the only remaining places for heavy brawling ships to shine, since even FW plexes favor kity ships, thanks to the warp-in immunity.

So please, CCP, don't destroy the last natural habitat of an endangered species ;)

In addition to this, please don't implement a mass regenerating WH mechanic, especially not on frigate sized WHs. There is no need for this, and all WHs should be collapsable without too much effort and/or manpower.

Sincerely,

Iris Bravemount

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#80 - 2014-08-10 19:56:51 UTC
sweikewa wrote:
I wonder. Who is paying you to destroy eve....

All those changes are only numbers change it's 0% new content.
Do you want make live in wh some more challenging ???
Add sleeper spawns on WH, Spawn random BS on capital entrance 8-20 not always 6-8 etc....mayby larger harder to kill ships.
Make players feel that they are unwanted in wh space... sleeper spawns attacking active/off line poses clearing their territory...
There are a lot ways you could make it more interesting but you always take the easy way... change numbers in db...


Agreed, and this pretty much reflects what I posted in the K162 spawn theread, which I'll repeat here:

"...I've just read all of the planned W-space changes for the Hyperion release, and as a continuous w-space dweller for the past 5 years (since Apoc), I have to say there's nothing at all in the list that excites me or makes me want to stay in w-space. Where's the new content, such as more challenging Sleepers which can attack anywhere in system? More varied and interesting radar/mag (sorry - "relic/data") sites? Or game changing additions such as ice belts and moon mining in w-space? Or new modules that let you influence the mass limits or lifetime of a wormhole? There are just a ton of things that could be done to spruce up w-space, without wrecking what has worked very well for the past 5 years, as the current proposals will certainly do."