These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A Carebear's Letter to CCP

First post
Author
Takari
Promised Victorious Entropy
#41 - 2014-08-08 11:53:35 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
[quote=Kagura Nikon][quote=Celthric Kanerian] And you can't seriously suggest that every such indie should be piloted manually from hek to jita, both ways, like, 10 times per day.


If you don't want to get "blowed up gud" I absolutely *do* suggest you manually pilot any ship however many jumps it takes. As far as I'm concerned, if you're on autopilot, you're really just begging for someone to take a shot at you. Might as well have your hauler loaded up with dancers and booze at that point.

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#42 - 2014-08-08 12:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Komi Toran wrote:
If gankers have it easier than ever before, it's because the gankers decided to organize, not because CCP buffed their profession.

Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
I'm a carebear, and I couldn't disagree with your post more. What you're suggesting would be bad for the game.

Mag's wrote:
The ill informed ignorance of the OP is quite frankly, astounding.

Also it's a rant, so INB4TL.

This thread should have ended here.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-08-08 13:15:28 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wrong, but thanks for trying, NPC alt. Your participation in these forums is both valued and warranted.


wow ... that was quite a respond ... dont u wana nobel price for arguing for this post of yours? rly constructive ....
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#44 - 2014-08-08 13:20:06 UTC
Zmikund wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wrong, but thanks for trying, NPC alt. Your participation in these forums is both valued and warranted.


wow ... that was quite a respond ... dont u wana nobel price for arguing for this post of yours? rly constructive ....


Your mistake is to think that you warrant anything further.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#45 - 2014-08-08 13:38:26 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


Or, y'know ... pack it all in plastic wrap, and hand it off to RFF.

Or, take a freighter (bring friends too).

The scale of different ventures can be very different, too, you know. Not everyone have enough cash to effectively outsorce logistics to 3rd party (what implies to have ability to sink a lot of isks into some goods, to fill the freighter fully, or to buy monthly portion of mats at once, which can easly require to spend billions of isks). People need to start with something, in relatively secure area. Your suggestions of no good to anyone who can't yet sink billions of isks into his ventures, and it's pretty bad decision to force those people fly hundreds jumps per day manually in painfully slow Epithal or Kryos to do it yourself, because of a couple sociopaths who blow t1 indies just because it seems fun for them and cost them almost nothing. Thats why for their first steps those who pilot t1 indies with low cost goods in cargo choose hisec in the first place - because of that they can stay under radar and do it with little profit (they just need experience), but with little effort also, untill they will become significant enough



Well, if their venture doesn't have sufficient scale to warrant a freighter or outsourcing to RFF, then I don't really see what you're getting at -- Jita to Hek (your systems), up to 1b in collateral and 800k m3 only costs you 14.6 million ISK to hire RFF. that's not exactly "a lot" by any means.

Your anecdote of needing 20+ trips in an industrial, however, is a perfect example of someone who has outgrown the small-time of an industrial ship, and now needs to invest in their infrastructure. Furthermore, why are you saying someone "can't afford" a freighter that costs a billion ISK, but they can afford raw materials that run a few billion ISK at a time?


As for the rest of your cool story ... I fly a freighter manually to/from my manufacturing site regularly (as in, weekly if not more often). So don't even start with "painfully slow" industrials.


As an aside -- what's with everyone saying gankers are sociopaths? I mean, how do you know that they're not on your competition's payroll?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#46 - 2014-08-08 13:48:02 UTC
Guys ... you noticed that OP never participated in the discussion ? You know what that means ? I am sure he is having fun watching you dance... and how nicely you perform.

Stop posting. You fight over nothing, the best trolls are the ones that incite and let others troll. So +1 for OP in this regard.

Now Dance

Dance

Dance.
Shaklu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-08-08 14:01:39 UTC
As someone who thoroughly enjoys PVE, I have to say that the issue isn't that High-sec is too dangerous, or that ships are too boss, or that EVE players are degenerate sociopaths, it's that there isn't enough fun stuff to do to get people's attention anymore.

The people who gank in High-sec probably would do other things instead if they existed and were fun to do. As it stands currently, EVE is boring - primarily because of "stagnation", which is actually just stability, in 0.0 making PVP hard to come by and everyone yelling about it. But mostly due to the deplorable lack of PVE fun and lucrative things to do. Missions are boring, WH's are getting turned into pvp null, mining is also boring, there are very few PVE mechanics that aren't a boring repetitive grind, even FW PVE is boring, and you only have to pay attention enough to warp off when someone shows up.

One of the last places that was great and fun and needed almost no tweaking or changes at all was WH space, and just read the dev blog of how much they are screwing that up with this coming expansion. The issue isn't that space isn't safe, it's that space is boring. If CCP added more dynamic, changing, and neat mechanics to give a huge infusion of stuff for people to do, then you wouldn't have lame idiots ganking ppl in high-sec space.

The fix to care-bear life isn't making it safer, it's adding much more content and variety of content for people to do that is PVE. Doing so will make more pilots spread out and be active in systems, active pilots means more activity in general, but very much so for PVP. Mega-corps are the issue, stabilizing and defending massive areas. Small corps are the solution, as long as they can exist without getting vaporized, they will create local content, and there will be more traffic, less blues, and more PVE and PVP for everyone.

Also if logging in in 100% security and making ISK is your thing - go into 0.0. It's the safest place in EVE right now. Find a corp deep inside the area of one of the coalitions that rents space, and join them for total security and lots of cash.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#48 - 2014-08-08 15:24:04 UTC
Shaklu wrote:
(stuff)



Overall, pretty good ... although to be fair, I don't think _any_ games have PVE activities that are not "a boring, repetitive grind".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#49 - 2014-08-08 15:32:13 UTC
Zmikund wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wrong, but thanks for trying, NPC alt. Your participation in these forums is both valued and warranted.


wow ... that was quite a respond ... dont u wana nobel price for arguing for this post of yours? rly constructive ....

Says the alt making an antagonistic and baiting response with no on topic constructive content.

Thanks NPC alts.
Bullock Brawn
Doomheim
#50 - 2014-08-08 16:51:09 UTC
I like a fair fight... but the OP is wrong on this one. High Sec would be far more boring without some sort of risk.

For the 3 years I've played different characters off and on, only got ganked twice
1) Freighter carrying 3B to Jita on Burn Jita Day ..... totally not my fault!!
2) T1 Indy carrying 600M in to Jita ..... thought my 8k tank would buffer a Hurricane alpha.

I didn't have to lose anything, I just wanted to go to Jita. ..the Freighter gank was actually very fun after I got over the loss. I had something like 40 little letters telling me I could kill my attackers if I grew some balls to do it.

Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-08-08 17:00:02 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
And you can't seriously suggest that every such indie should be piloted manually from hek to jita, both ways, like, 10 times per day. It simply insane and won't reward you enough.

If you want to mostly guarantee a safe trip then they should be flown manually both ways. If its not rewarding enough then don't do it. Simple.

If the occasional ganks while auto piloting cost you enough to make the auto pilot trips not profitable then don't do those either. Also simple.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#52 - 2014-08-08 19:20:54 UTC
beatlebutt wrote:
not everyone that plays wants to pvp. If you force them into PVP they will just quit.

You realise that every aspect of EVE is grounded in competative gameplay, right?

Missions, Mining, Industry and Trading. All used as fine examples of 'non-pvp' gameplay by the banner waving members of the carebear community. Yet they are all forms of PvP gameplay. MIssion runners compete with each other to accrue isk and LP points faster than the other runners. Miners compete for the best ores. Industrialists and traders compete for profit margins. It's all PvP.

There is a lot more to PvP in EVE than just 'orbit + F1'.

If people don't want to play a PvP oriented game then they don't have to. But make no mistake, this is not WoW in space, this is EVE, Everyone Vs Everyone else.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-08-08 21:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Velicitia wrote:

Well, if their venture doesn't have sufficient scale to warrant a freighter or outsourcing to RFF, then I don't really see what you're getting at -- Jita to Hek (your systems), up to 1b in collateral and 800k m3 only costs you 14.6 million ISK to hire RFF. that's not exactly "a lot" by any means.

Billion in mats for your production needs for next month or two, another billion which you have to instantly sink in buy orders, or you will have to sink it in actuall mats bought from sell orders during this month - to prepare another pile of mats for next month. Either you should set buy orders - and have enough money on the wallet to cover them - or you have to buy them from sells in systems other than main trade hubs - because buying mats from sells in trade hubs in most cases will diminish your profits to the level it won't be worth to spend time on. And if you buying from sells beyond main trade hubs, you now have to drag all those to one place, from where your freihghter will depart anyway - so another fascinating 50jmp trip in t1 specialized industrial (and they are slow as dead snail)

And this is only half of a problem. As you are using mats bought from markets (and you will have to if you are not multiboxer and just want to do industry stuff with 1 character), you are overly dependent on markets' fluctuations. You can easly find that your targeted goods start to decline in value and as you already sunk a month worth amount isk in mats to produce them, you either should stop immideately and switch to another goods (and that means that at least parts of your isks will stay sunken in mats you can't reuse for something other atm, and also that means that you will have to buy some other mats, and again in huge volumes, to decrease logistics expenses; or you will have to sell those mats, chosing between losing some significant amount of isks while selling it cheaper at current system, or first deliver them back to some trade hub to cut your loses - another logistical nightmare), or you should continue with chosen product, and then store it and wait until price will rise again, and switch to somethin else.

And even in the best case scenario, you will still have to sell what you manufactured, before those money spent on mats will return to your vallet. So, in this best case, we have several billions sunk in mats and buy orders, and another several billions in finished goods - and should have some financial buffer in case something happen - another several billions.

And don't forget about some other activities, like pvping or ratting in some unhospitable spaces - they also require some liquid cash to cover your losses.

So, to start in industry your way anyone will require around 7-10 bills of isks on the wallet. Thats pretty outrageous requirment for young indusrtialists out there. Yea, anyone can easly farm that much in several months in HS, but it's simply rediculous. I don't want to run LV4s for half a year to start with spending billions on mats, I want to start making my first baby steps like this month already. You way implies just another useless timesink CCP tries to get rid of atm.

I don't know what you actually use your freighter for, but it seems you either don't manufacture what you are transporting, or you never started your manufacture career from the baby steps(or it happened so long ago that you don't even remember), or you just have an army of alts who provide you with all mats needed. Like having at most 1bil on your wallet and can afford only buy mats for 1-2 weeks ahead. Then you will face those fascinating trips in tanked epithal from hek to jita, 40 minutes in each direction, when even doing it with autopilot will bore you to death. Yes, ofc I do it with autopilot, because I don't want to become another raging MMO TV news star while killing my neighbours and my family after playing "Warp to gate online" for several days.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-08-08 22:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Velicitia wrote:

As an aside -- what's with everyone saying gankers are sociopaths? I mean, how do you know that they're not on your competition's payroll?

People who are blowing t1 industrials hauling their cheap cargos for sheer fun are sociopaths, there are few exceptions from that. We can argue about severity of their sociopathic tendencies, but the fact they have this feature developed to some degree is undisputable. And btw the standard retort about sociopaths being the real playerbase of Eve online will stay the forum gag untill backed up with some [odd] statistical survey Smile

I have nothing against those who blow freighters or indies stuffed with goods worth of billions, though.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#55 - 2014-08-08 22:33:42 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:

People who are blowing t1 industrials hauling their cheap cargos for sheer fun are sociopaths, there are few exceptions from that.


That, or blowing up spaceships is fun.



Quote:

We can argue about severity of their sociopathic tendencies, but the fact they have this feature developed to some degree is undisputable.


That, or blowing up spaceships is fun.



Quote:

I don't have anything against those who blow freighters or indies stuffed with goods worth of billions, though.


So, you would rather that I blow you up for profit, than blow you up just because it's fun?

You have issues. At the forefront of which is, "why do you even play EVE at all?"

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-08-08 22:57:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ray Kyonhe wrote:

People who are blowing t1 industrials hauling their cheap cargos for sheer fun are sociopaths, there are few exceptions from that.


That, or blowing up spaceships is fun.

Yea, and those punks kicking and breaking glass in the bus also do it because it seems like fun for them. If someone blowing ship in HS not for money, he doing it, like, in 90% of cases, to hurt its pilot and "collect tears". This is the real source of fun for this types of players who engage in activities like that. And this is actually what called sociopathy.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So, you would rather that I blow you up for profit, than blow you up just because it's fun?

The issue I mentioned includes those who being ganked while autopiloting ships which you can't gank for profit. If I will have to transport something valuable enough, I will do it appropriately - and you again won't be able to gank me (most of the times). So yes, I don't care if someone was blown because he took a risky approach and sent his freighter autopiloting with something valuable enough to gank it in cargo. And I don't mind if someone will outskill me and manage to gank my blockade runner.

The problem arises with isks being earn too easy, and buying and subscribing an army of ganking alts to gank everything you can for fun is not so rare nowdays. What should be attended with more subtle approach than simple SS status drops and expendable ships lost. Like, goverment deals with criminals one way, and allow them just to "pay" for their deeds, but raging psychopaths killing all they meet without real reason just can't be dealed with like normal people and should expect exremely harsh contr-measures from the State. The tricky part is how to distinguish between these two categories.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#57 - 2014-08-08 23:00:45 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:

Yea, and those punks kicking and breaking glass in the bus also do it because it seems like fun for them.


Videogames are not real. I should not have to explain that to an adult.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#58 - 2014-08-08 23:04:49 UTC
Oh, and as for your complaint about "tears".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

The fault lies entirely at the feet of those who think it an appropriate response to explode in anger over pixels. Yes, I go out of my way to knock the chip off the shoulder of those people. I go out of my way to slap them around, I do my best to find them, and persecute them.

Because watching an adult scream and howl about a videogame is funny. Because they're not being adults, they're being spoiled, petulant little children.

I laugh when I see a grown man behave like a little child. It's funny.

And I am far from alone in that sentiment. Which should lead you to wonder, who is the one here who really has the maladjusted social disorder. The person who treats a game like a game, or the person who treats a game like everything in it were real life?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Emma Muutaras
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-08-08 23:06:47 UTC
i think i can dream up a compromise here

on the risk reward idea make true high sec you know the 1.0 systems make them and them only gank proof, this will give new players a risk free environment to learn the game.

if you want to mine risk free hell mine that veldspar in 1.0 system to your hearts content, freighters well you still got it rough slow warp speeds and no defence against bumping well except for logging off but at least you got a few systems that your safe in.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#60 - 2014-08-08 23:07:19 UTC
Do you scream at people when you land on their hotels in Monopoly? Do you call them sociopaths for winning at a board game?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.