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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Turret Damage Project Fact Checking & Feedback

Author
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-08-07 23:53:21 UTC
o/

I'm working on an infographic project based on the turret damage formula and relevant game mechanics. It's a beast, I'm maybe 1/3 of the way done

As I work on it i'd like to submit it for public review and fact checking.

What I'm finding is that it's not the most appropriate guide for newbs. Filling in -all- the details is just impossible, and I think these infographics are more useful as a set of talking points between a rookie and a veteran player.

There are still some aesthetic changes to make as a final touch, like a cool background and other visual effects... but the basic structure of the information is here. I'd like to make it available for public peer review, rather than keep it to myself and risk mistakes for the sake of the "wow" factor of a final product.

It's heavy, I can't avoid that. What I'd like to hear about are things that should be explained a little deeper. Also, each page takes around 4 hours (sometimes 6) to build, so the best rate I can push these out is 1 a day... within reason.

Page 1

Page 2

Page 3

Page 4

Page 5
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#2 - 2014-08-08 00:01:39 UTC
you do not always have to orbit target to keep transversal, you can manually circle on one direction from target.

this is usefull if there is more than one enemy so you can stay away from all easier.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-08-08 00:04:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
that's a pretty good point, it should be added as a disclaimer.. that it doesn't have to be an orbit.

...in fact, entering orbit with the orbit command does that 'thing' where the ship stops after selecting a random orbit. that's a big one
Brock Nelson
#4 - 2014-08-08 00:23:13 UTC
Which turret can use hydrogen batteries as ammo?

Signature removed, CCP Phantom

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2014-08-08 00:24:51 UTC
lol i sense an industry trivia question? i'm guessing hybrids? (are hydrogen batteries a component of hybrid ammo, i don't even know).
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-08-08 10:20:12 UTC
Cool stuff, Rain!

A couple of things you might want to point out in the next instalments:

. When you're within optimal range you've maximised your chance to hit, relative to the distance factor. In other words, the 'perfect' range is anything within optimal. When you're in optimal + falloff, your chance to hit (relative to the distance factor) is exactly halved.

. Tracking is trickier. Leaving sig radius aside for a moment, when your angular velocity is equal to your guns' tracking, your chance to hit is actually HALVED compared to the 'perfect' angular velocity - which is in fact ZERO. So your guns' tracking figure is not the 'OPTIMAL' tracking but actually the 'FALLOFF' tracking! Which may be confusing I think (it was to me before I started playing around with the maths)

==> It could be useful to point out that to maximise damage, you have to both 1) be within optimal range and 2) have an angular velocity as small as possible. Ideally zero, practically IIRC having ang V lesser or equal to 1/3 of your guns' tracking gives you around 95% chance to hit


Another interesting thing is the effect of MWD (excluding ships with MWD sig bloom bonuses): the sig radius bloom is 500% FIXED, while the speed increase is 500%-625% 'VARIABLE' (depending on skills), because your max speed is increased but you won't necessarily always be moving at max speed, especially in tight orbits or while maneuvering.

This means that, for example in a frigate with max speed 500m/s, you'll be harder to hit going 400m/s without MWD than going anything up to 2,400m/s with MWD. So if you're using an MWD to not get hit, you better be sure you're moving fast! Else you're better off switching it off.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2014-08-08 10:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
thank god we're on the same wavelength. it's tricky to touch on enough but not too much. you've outlined the next few pages, broski. i'm relieved to find our main points are similar

I think you'll like it. "The Battle for Turret Formula Supremacy"

some quote from patton or another war general about where wars are won.



I will include a reference list, and a contributor credit list for the time ppl take to look this over. I have no problem attributing this to EVE-O / Warfare & Tactics.



just in case you're wondering, the dates are about 6 weeks ago--the gap represents a 5 week summer class which is over now. (Critical Thinking & Writing)
Arla Sarain
#8 - 2014-08-08 10:43:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
I like the turret profiles. And I appraise the effort. I would like to see simpler language though. If it's meant to be an infographic, people shouldn't have to ponder on the meaning of words in context for longer than 10s.

But I'm not sure why tracking has to be so detailed. IMO instead of making it so detailed, make it practical and streamlined.

The reality is that unless you are fast enough for the enemy to miss at least 80% of the time, sig tanking won't save you. Whilst this is an MMO and you can look at DPS statistically and analytically, why bother with the grey area between 80% and 10% to hit? It is largely unreliable (because RNG is RNG), and unless you like rolling the dice, don't even bother trying to sig tank.

To drop it down to 10%, your cumulative ratio that goes into the brackets needs to be 1.8 (0.5^(1.8^2)~0.1).
What it means is that if your sig is as big as their guns, your angular speed needs to be 80% faster than your enemies' tracking.
After that any amount your sig is smaller than the guns is the amount (or close to the amount) you can afford being slower.

I find this easy to understand, and easy to compute midst fight. I know my sig, I know what guns my enemy is using. Together they tell me how much slower I can be. I just assume the worst case scenario for tracking (max tracking skill, smallest guns, or within reasonable doubt, what gun tier are common in the current metagame, like neutrons instead of electrons). This allows me to look at my overview -> angular velocity and determine if I'm fast enough.

Also the orbit slip theory is, again, not very practical.
Page 32 of this https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I3y922Akj6NkFCtfp8xfwLeUNgDn9xis83z23u19o4g/edit
has a comprehensive module effect on orbiting.

It shows that despite the slip, which is meant to decrease your angular due to higher range, an AB will increase your angular by about 30%, and despite nanos giving lower speed than overdrives, they will increase your angular velocity substantially. These can be reproduced in game - having an AB cycling when attempting to orbit at 500 is not bad if your optimal allows it.

Good effort but it needs to be shorter and simpler IMO. If you really must insist on making detailed, refer the reader to relevant theory on wikipedia or something.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2014-08-08 17:52:23 UTC
that was a good read.

Short and simple is good. I'll look at what can be deleted.

Thanks for the language feedback. I believe you--I've heard it before. I might have caused the awkward language by not giving myself enough space, and the layout affected the language.

Detailed Tracking:

I want to make sure angular and transversal are explained thoroughly because it's important to understand the difference, (delineation / disambiguation) which is important to the rest of the graphics. repetition is also good. Some things will click right away, and others will take some time and exposure.

hold that thought about prop mods--I need to cover the relationship between angular/tracking and signature res/radius first